Retro POY 1958-59 (Voting Complete)

[drza]

This is getting to be almost ridiculously difficult, as most of the names I've even heard of are falling off. I, too, have no idea who Kenny Sears is but I'm seriously considering ranking him. I just wonder if that would come off like someone 50 years from now ranking David Lee one of the top-5 players of 2010. The only problem is, at this point I have almost NOTHING but stats to work off of.

Similar conundrum in St. Louis and Minneapolis. Based off what I'd heard coming into this project and the accolades, I expected this to be an easy vote for Pettit at 1st or 2nd. But then I look closer and again, about the only difference I can see between the regular season success of the Hawks and the success of the Lakers is Cliff Hagan...which isn't Baylor's fault. Add to that that Baylor led his less-talented team past the Hawks in the postseason, and I'm tempted for him to leap-frog Pettit. And speaking of Hagan...why is he never mentioned in the stories with Pettit? Every year he seems to be right there with him production-wise. Pettit clearly had the better regular season numbers, but in the postseason Hagan exploded and Pettit fell off. That looks strange.

Dolph Schayes also seems like he should be mentioned here. 21 and 13 (on admittedly terrible FG%) in regular season, followed up by averaging 28/13/5 with the 2nd highest postseason PER in the league as the Nationals swept the higher-ranked (but worse SRS) Knicks then took the Celtics to 7 games. In fact, based on SRS and postseason performance you can make the argument that Schayes' Nationals were actually the 2nd best team in the league.

Final Vote:

1. Russell
2. Baylor
3. Pettit
4. Hagan
5. Schayes

HM: Sears (Sad to say, but having absolutely no idea who he is made him too hard to vote for). Plus, his Knicks got swept by Schaye's Nationals, so call that the tie-breaker.

[lorak]

It’s hard to find any information about Sears, but here’s what quick google search showed me:

Here’s our hero:


On the back of this card we could find some information:


Here’s mention about his game winning buzzer beater: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=m- ... ears&hl=en

He was conference player of the year before Bill Russell (however race probably was a factor): http://books.google.pl/books?id=Z0sTAjT ... rs&f=false

He wasn’t afraid to fight – fractured jaw in a fight during game: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/acc ... atl=google

Kenny Sears, once one of the bright stars of the National Basketball Association, today jumped the New York Knickerbockers and signed with the San Franciso Comets of the new, rival American Basketball League.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/acc ... atl=google

About suit Sears vs NY Knicks (Sears wanted to jump to ABL): http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ij ... ears&hl=en
and
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Mp ... ears&hl=en

Another example of his clutch play (but it’s only one basket in lost game): http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3d ... ears&hl=en

More Sears clutch play, but it was in ABL: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=G- ... ears&hl=en

SEARS SETS PACE IN 142-135 GAME; Sinks 39 Points as Knicks Win After Nine Straight Defeats by Celtics

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract. ... 5F448685F9

[semi-sentient]

1. Bill Russell
2. Bob Pettit
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Cliff Hagan
5. Bob Cousy

[Optimism Prime]

1. Bill Russell
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Bob Pettit
4. Cliff Hagan
5. Kenny Sears

[TrueLAfan]

I’m pretty sure that Kenny Sears had a bad rap with management. He was a “money” guy that created problems with contract negotiations. It’s tempting to say that when he was traded, players that were received were lesser—indicating that he had less value—but the league money margin was so small (and that was true into the late 1960s) that I don’t think that’s an accurate way to look at him. I think he also made some noise in the 80s and 90s about pensions for older players. He may have been a better player than he was given credit for. I think one of the knocks on him, was that, for his size, he was not a good rebounder and wasn’t “tough”…and this was in a game with more violent interior play, so that may have been held against him as well.

I think that’s one of the problems with older players—and with using modern analytic tools to break them down. We may not agree with what teams and coaches did in the past, but there were systems and expectations of players…and when a big man didn’t play well inside and/or wasn’t physical, something was considered “wrong,” even if the player in question had a good outside shot or others skills that, at the time, were considered less desirable.

1. Russell. Tough call. He and Pettit are neck and neck this year.
2. Pettit. I thought he was as good as Russell this year, but his team didn’t go as far as they should have. (And Hagan stepped up more in the playoffs, although Pettit had a fine postseason.)
3. Elgin. Terrific rookie campaign; took over in the postseason.
4. Hagan. Great #2 man—came up big in the playoffs.
5. Arizin. Good player; slight dropoff from his best years, but a good shooting, good defending swingman.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote:

1. Russell
2. Pettit
3. Baylor
4. Dolph
5. Hagan

Russell's an easy call. 2 & 3 are not. Pettit's team gets upset by Baylor's, with Pettit not even being the best Hawk. But I'm not willing to throw out the regular season that easily, and Baylor wasn't supermassive in the playoffs.

Schayes gets my 4 spot. I really wonder if we give him enough credit. Looking at his team's W-L vs SRS, and noting how their almost upset of the Celtics looks a lot more like the SRS.

I'll give Hagan #5. The best Hawk of the playoffs. I do think people knocking him for being a second option are really missing the mark. Hagan's a guy who consistently score at levels around Pettit, not someone did well one time.

[Doctor MJ]

Last call.

[Doctor MJ]

'58-59 Results

Code: Select all

Player             1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. Bill Russell     13   0   0   0   0 130   1.000
2. Bob Pettit        0  11   2   0   0  87   0.669
3. Elgin Baylor      0   2  11   0   0  69   0.531
4. Cliff Hagan       0   0   0   8   3  27   0.208
5. Kenny Sears       0   0   0   2   2   8   0.062
6. Paul Arizin       0   0   0   1   3   6   0.046
7. Bob Cousy         0   0   0   0   4   4   0.031
   Dolph Schayes     0   0   0   1   1   4   0.031
9. Frank Ramsey      0   0   0   1   0   3   0.023


[semi-sentient]

Site updated: www.dolem.com/poy

Russell now sniffing Jordan's booty. He'll pass him after the next round of voting. Russell won't claim #1 until his final voting year, more than likely.

Code: Select all

1.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  10.221
2.  Michael Jordan        9.578
3.  Bill Russell          9.540
4.  Wilt Chamberlain      7.818
5.  Magic Johnson         7.114
6.  Tim Duncan            6.153
7.  Larry Bird            6.147
8.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
9.  Julius Erving         5.046
10. Karl Malone           4.649
11. Oscar Robertson       4.413
12. Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
13. Kobe Bryant           4.326
14. Jerry West            3.795
15. Moses Malone          3.478

[bastillon]

Yeah, in playoffs he played very good, but you know - Celtics playoffs run that year = 11 games, so very small sample.
Besides even in playoffs he still was coming from the bench (so again - less defensive attention) and was 5th in minutes played.

That speaks volumes though. Being able to lead a championship team in Win Shares despite coming off the bench and being 5th in minutes.

his WS were so high because of Bill Russell's defense leading them to great DRTGs. Ramsey should have been credited with significantly less DWS, but they're being divided among players based on mins and rebounds so...

if DWS were credited to Russell appropriately, no Celtic has a shot at passing him in WS overall. he'd have like 60-70% of their DWS... which would be monstrous overall.

[Optimism Prime]

Site updated: http://www.dolem.com/poy

Russell now sniffing Jordan's booty. He'll pass him after the next round of voting. Russell won't claim #1 until his final voting year, more than likely.

Code: Select all

1.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  10.221
2.  Michael Jordan        9.578
3.  Bill Russell          9.540
4.  Wilt Chamberlain      7.818
5.  Magic Johnson         7.114
6.  Tim Duncan            6.153
7.  Larry Bird            6.147
8.  Shaquille O'Neal      5.910
9.  Julius Erving         5.046
10. Karl Malone           4.649
11. Oscar Robertson       4.413
12. Hakeem Olajuwon       4.380
13. Kobe Bryant           4.326
14. Jerry West            3.795
15. Moses Malone          3.478

Top four are my top four (although I'm not certain about the order I'd put them in); we were .007 POY shares away from having the "immortal six," but Duncan's a worthy mention that high. Dr. J, Malone, and Oscar all seem a bit high, though that may just be my Hakeem bias peeking through. I should go back and update my rankings so I can see what my final numbers will be...

[eminence]

Schayes finishing 8th this year might be my least favorite result of the entire project, what were y'all doing

[Doctor MJ]

Schayes finishing 8th this year might be my least favorite result of the entire project, what were y'all doing

Hard to defend. Definitely the project was losing steam by this point as people lacked the confidence to know how to rank these guys.

[eminence]

Schayes finishing 8th this year might be my least favorite result of the entire project, what were y'all doing

Hard to defend. Definitely the project was losing steam by this point as people lacked the confidence to know how to rank these guys.

No worries Doc, just poking a bit of fun. Still the greatest group project the board has ever undertook, no shame in petering out a bit. Shoutout to the solo work of sansterres teams list, and kinda to Elgees top 40 though not directly on this board.