RealGM Top 100 #3

[LoboGuerrero]

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain
Nominate: Jerry West

[SDChargers#1]

Stay strong on Lebron RonnyMac...

As for Oscar, his peak was never as good as Lebron, that's just categorically false, and his loser teams are strong evidence for that, along with the pace adjustment, shooting %, etc. It's more or less hypothetical that he'd be a better player now, but one thing that's clear is he sure wasn't when he actually played.

Robertson's shooting % is better than Lebron's despite playing in an era of lower shooting percentages across the board. He was also a MUCH better free throw shooter than Lebron. As a whole he was much more efficient than Lebron.

Oscar was also the better passer to Lebron, in a era where it was harder to get assists than it is today (which cancels out the pace factor in that regard for me). He led the league in assists 7 times.

Offensively Oscar was a monster. A 30 ppg scorer who would lead the league in assists. Try to wrap your mind around that happening today. With pace included it would essentially be a 25 ppg scorer leading the league in assists. Oh yea and also putting up 6+ rebounds. And he did that 6 times...SIX (the 7th time he led the league his scoring numbers dropped a bit). Oscar is one of two players to lead the league in scoring and passing in the same season (Tiny Archibald being the other).

If you are one of those who are amazed by Lebron's super high PER numbers, Oscar's are actually very close, and considering he played in an era with no steals or blocks (which he would definitely have been getting a lot of), Oscar's peak is every bit as good if not better than Lebron's.

He was a better passer, more efficient scorer, better rebounder for position, has a title (even as second banana it is better than none), and better longevity.

Lebron is the better defender, overall rebounder, and overall scorer. I do believe Lebron will eventually pass Oscar (maybe even in the next couple of seasons), but up to this point Oscar has had the better career.

[ronnymac2]

David Stern and Regul8er-


I could not find any links talking about Kareem's injury in 1973. However, in the 1973 RPOY thread, TrueLaFan said he was, like, 99 percent certain Jabbar had an elbow injury. I would definitely understand your skepticism, but TLA really is one of the best- he wouldn't be making things up, and he knows his history.

Again, I'd understand your skepticism considering I can't find anything other than that.

I'm aware of the thread. I both participated in it when it was happening, and referenced it. With all due respect, I'm not particularly interested in how sure he was, I'm interested in the fact that he was unable to provide any evidence to back his claim, no one else was able to find any proof of this, yet everyone keeps repeating it. One doesn't have to be "making things up" in order to be mistaken. If I make a statement for which you or anyone else can't find any verification of, then I expect to be called out on it as well, regardless what my reputation on this board may or may not be. Which is why I post the examples illustrating what I'm talking about that some people dislike. Until someone can actually prove this, it should be dismissed as excuse making.

Like I said, can't blame you for feeling that way.

[lorak]

It seems like KAJ would win easily, so maybe we should already vote for 4th spot and nominate 2 players?

[GilmoreFan]

Let's play a game, where we use your logic, and apply it to someone who it would be even more true of.

Robertson's shooting % is better than Kobe's despite playing in an era of lower shooting percentages across the board. He was also a better free throw shooter than Kobe (and seriously, FT shooting... is that what this sort of thing comes down to?. As a whole he was MUCH more efficient than Kobe.

Oscar was also the better passer to Kobe, in a era where it was harder to get assists than it is today (which cancels out the pace factor in that regard for me). He led the league in assists 7 times.

Offensively Oscar was a monster. A 30 ppg scorer who would lead the league in assists. Try to wrap your mind around that happening today. With pace included it would essentially be a 25 ppg scorer leading the league in assists. Oh yea and also putting up 6+ rebounds. And he did that 6 times...SIX (the 7th time he led the league his scoring numbers dropped a bit). Oscar is one of two players to lead the league in scoring and passing in the same season (Tiny Archibald being the other).

If you are one of those who are amazed by Kobe's super high PER numbers, Oscar's are actually HIGHER, and considering he played in an era with no steals or blocks (which he would definitely have been getting a lot of), Oscar's peak is every bit as good if not better than Kobe.

Every argument you make for Oscar v.s Lebron is even stronger for Oscar v.s Kobe except longevity, and given Oscar only had 10 prime seasons, and Lebron is already in his 8th (and Kobe has 11 prime years anyway, 12 if you really pushed it), so that can't be an (objective) reason (yeh, yeh, Kobe is a better FT shooter, but Lebron is so much more efficient overall it still comes out with Oscar killing Kobe according to your analysis). It just seems clear you're not being objective here.

[ThaRegul8r]

30 ppg scorer who would lead the league in assists. Try to wrap your mind around that happening today.

Robertson had six seasons of 30 or more points per game. In NBA history, only Michael Jordan (8) and Wilt Chamberlain (7) had more. He averaged 9.5 assists per game, fourth all-time behind Magic Johnson (11.2), John Stockton (19.6) and Chris Paul (10.0--career in progress). He led the league in assists six times--bettered only by Stockton (9) and Bob Cousy (8).

[Dr Positivity]

The problem I have with Lebron... and it's really something I should've caught onto months ago before I started talking about him being better than Erving, Oscar, West, etc. already... is that I don't think his bball IQ and ability to recognize open spaces is near those guys. His awareness of his other players is great. But I think the 2011 Finals really proved how much more he could be if he had a keen awareness of how to cut into open spaces, create shots no matter what the defense gives, etc. and do just more than pound the ball and create. I was watching the 1980 Finals, Erving has a quote that flashes on screen that goes like "You play to the daylight... you get a little bit of daylight and space and then you take advantage of it" - which is how he plays the whole series - he finds a seam and then half a second later he's somehow at the rim. Erving struck me as a guy that was going to punish you every time he fell asleep for half a second on him or he got a little open and I'm pretty sure West and Oscar are exactly the same way. Lebron is bigger, faster, a much better shooter and a much better passer than Erving... but ends up being nowhere close to his 1980 performance in 2011 without the noggin

(and on that note, one guy who really is terrific at killing you with cuts and making you pay if you give him any air: Kevin Durant. It's amazing how many points Durant gets at the rim without an above average iso or on ball game and without all that many pnrs to drive off)

[SDChargers#1]

Every argument you make for Oscar v.s Lebron is even stronger for Oscar v.s Kobe except longevity, and given Oscar only had 10 prime seasons, and Lebron is already in his 8th, that can't be an (objective) reason (yeh, yeh, Kobe is a better FT shooter, but Lebron is so much more efficient overall it still comes out with Oscar killing Kobe according to your analysis). It just seems clear you're not being objective here.

Longevity is a pretty big argument especially considering I said at the end...

I do believe Lebron will eventually pass Oscar (maybe even in the next couple of seasons)

Also note...

has a title (even as second banana it is better than none)

Kobe has 5. I obviously value championships. When comparing a championship to a guy who has none it is a big deal, when comparing it to a guy who has FIVE, that is a HUGE advantage in my eyes.

Oscar absolutely is more efficient then Kobe, a better passer, and a better rebounder. (Note all advantages I put over Lebron minus 2 (titles and longevity (both of which I value heavily)).

Kobe is a better scorer, defender, winner and has better longevity.

The major difference here 5 titles to 1 (an even bigger difference than 1 to 0)
Longevity (12 prime seasons compared to 10, while Lebron has 8 to 10)

Also Lebron is a whopping 1% better career TS% to Kobe, his advantage isn't as massive as you make it out to be.

I have said many times, that Lebron with a title jumps over MANY people on the All Time list, and I stand by that. I truly believe that Lebron will end a top 10 player, and probably top 5 (yes above Kobe as much as I hate to admit it). My point is that Lebron hasn't accomplished it yet.

If you honestly believe Lebron is a top 13 player when he hasn't won a title yet and played maybe half of his career you must assume he is going to end up quite high on the all time list I imagine?

[SDChargers#1]

30 ppg scorer who would lead the league in assists. Try to wrap your mind around that happening today.

Robertson had six seasons of 30 or more points per game. In NBA history, only Michael Jordan (8) and Wilt Chamberlain (7) had more. He averaged 9.5 assists per game, fourth all-time behind Magic Johnson (11.2), John Stockton (19.6) and Chris Paul (10.0--career in progress). He led the league in assists six times--bettered only by Stockton (9) and Bob Cousy (8).

According to basketball reference Oscar led the league in points per game once and assists per game 7 times. However, in one of those years they still measured the league leader by totals and not per game averages.

[GilmoreFan]

Your answer basically discredits the need to respond to you in depth. You're giving guys credit for team success, and using it as a way to gyp players who were more talented, but had worse circumstances through their careers. I could point out it is ridiculous for you to use career TS% as the measure, when we should be using prime and peak TS%, but why bother. It's obvious you're immune to reasoned persuasion and argument on these points, you basically just admitted your winning argument is going to be "Kobe has 5 rings... count em, 5". It wasn't an argument you applied elsewhere, but I guess that's the benefit of something totally subjective in value, you can just say it was worth "enough" in whatever context it suits you to erode every other advantage... or not.

Like you said elsewhere, you're biased towards Kobe, which is why you have him about 4-9 places higher than most voters here do. I'm just glad you said it and not me.

[ThaRegul8r]

30 ppg scorer who would lead the league in assists. Try to wrap your mind around that happening today.

Robertson had six seasons of 30 or more points per game. In NBA history, only Michael Jordan (8) and Wilt Chamberlain (7) had more. He averaged 9.5 assists per game, fourth all-time behind Magic Johnson (11.2), John Stockton (19.6) and Chris Paul (10.0--career in progress). He led the league in assists six times--bettered only by Stockton (9) and Bob Cousy (8).

According to basketball reference Oscar led the league in points per game once and assists per game 7 times. However, in one of those years they still measured the league leader by totals and not per game averages.

I was referring to the standard by which the NBA determined league leaders at that particular time. Robertson also led the league in points per game and assists per game simultaneously before Tiny Archibald did it, however, league leaders were not determined by per-game averages at that time.

[SDChargers#1]

Your answer basically discredits the need to respond to you in depth. You're giving guys credit for team success, and using it as a way to gyp players who were more talented, but had worse circumstances through their careers. I could point out it is ridiculous for you to use career TS% as the measure, when we should be using prime and peak TS%, but why bother. It's obvious you're immune to reasoned persuasion and argument on these points, you basically just admitted your winning argument is going to be "Kobe has 5 rings... count em, 5". It wasn't an argument you applied elsewhere, but I guess that's the benefit of something totally subjective in value, you can just say it was worth "enough" in whatever context it suits you to erode every other advantage... or not.

Like you said elsewhere, you're biased towards Kobe, which is why you have him about 4-9 places higher than most voters here do. I'm just glad you said it and not me.

See you are ignoring my 2 points. Yes titles are a big point (since I assume you are talking about me having Kareem over Russell). Kareem dominates Russell in longevity and offense.

Btw, I would love to quote you...

As for Oscar, his peak was never as good as Lebron, that's just categorically false, and his loser teams are strong evidence for that

Who is focusing on team success now. At least I am consistent in that I always value team success the same way. It is a big factor in the many factors that I use to compare players.

Championships
Longevity
Peak
Scoring (Volume and Efficiency)
Passing
Rebounding
Defense
Accolades / Accomplishments (like all time leading scorer)

Are the biggest factors and all have different weights.

As most know I value championships and longevity heavily. Since peak is usually a 1-3 season event, I can't comprehend having it more valuable than 12+ years of great play.

So to go back to the what we have been discussing (Oscar v Lebron v Kobe)

Championships (1 v 0 v 5) Massive advantage Kobe (slight advantage of Oscar over Lebron)
Longevity (in years of prime play 10 v 8 v 12) advantage Kobe (advantage Oscar over Lebron)
Peak (Oscar and Lebron over Kobe)
Scoring (volume Kobe and Lebron over Oscar, in efficiency Oscar over Lebron over Kobe)
Passing (Oscar over Lebron over Kobe)
Rebounding (Oscar and Lebron over Kobe)
Defense (Kobe and Lebron over Oscar)
Accolades (Kobe with a sizeable advantage over Lebron and Oscar)

So notice in my 9 most important categories and my two most important Kobe had an advantage in 5 of them of them over Oscar and 3 over Lebron (tied in 2). Oscar has an advantage 4 over Kobe and Lebron. Lebron has an advantage in 4 over Kobe and 2 over Oscar.

Now Lebron does have a 4 to 3 advantage over Kobe, but Kobe has a massive advantage in the 2 categories I take the most stock in (championships and longevity). When those get closer Lebron will get a lot closer to Kobe in my book (1 championship and 4 more years will essentially put him at Kobe level IMO).

Plug essentially any of the players in my all time list into these categories and you will see why I rate them where I do. I am very consistent with where I place players on my all time list.

[GilmoreFan]

Even your comeback is ridiculously lame. Read the sentence: "his loser teams are strong evidence for that". Anyone who had been following my posts through this project so far will know precisely why I said they are evidence for that, because there should be evidence of an individual's impact on the success of a team. Oscar led some quite good teams to mediocrity. Lebron carried worse teams to the best record in the NBA. He did it because his ability to impact the game as an individual had a huge positive effect for his team. This is not complex stuff. The argument is not "Lebron's team won so he is better", it's that his impact on the team can be seen visibly, both by the before and after test, and by a number of other metrics, all of which back up that point. Oscar's impact clearly wasn't as great, and the sole Oscar argument I've seen concerns how he'd have a much bigger impact today for x reason and y reason.

Kobe's impact on the court is much less, and I can see that in team results too. Whether that's the 3 years he didn't have Shaq and Gasol, or the years he had lots of help (arguably the best support cast in the NBA) and didn't win (eg, 03, 04, 08, 11). And before you say something silly in your reply, do bear in mind nobody is suggesting his 03 support cast is awesome because it was deep, rather it was awesome because it had prime Shaq, the greatest pairing or 2 players in their primes ever, and they lost to the one man Duncan Spurs.

[Dr Positivity]

GilmoreFan and Kobe is like the complete opposite version of bastillion and Hakeem

[GilmoreFan]

Meh, I probably have him ranked higher than the guys running this project. Baller24 at the least.

[rrravenred]

Kareem, without too much thought. He has length of prime, accolades, championships (if that particular, in-reality-team-based accolade floats your boat) staggering aggregate statistics, 20-odd years between finals MVPs...

There are absolutely question marks about his leadership and intangibles, but it's not as though those following him required teams to go their way to achive success. The other knock on him is that his "pure" prime came during the ABA years, and I'm certainly open to discussion on that point, even if my mind is reasonably made up at this point.

Nominations are more wide open. However, I've mellowed a lot on Karl Malone recently, so I'm going for him. At least it saves me from nominating another Malone in the top 100. (Sorry Jeff, you're not in consideration).

[Vinsanity420]

GilmoreFan and Kobe is like the complete opposite version of bastillion and Hakeem

More like the opposite of Mysticbb and Dirk. Or Drza and KG.

Vote: Kareem
Nominate: Oscar

SD chargers... you aren't adjusting those numbers through pace. LeBron clearly has a superior peak.. he has a Magic/Bird level peak. No version of Oscar is better than LeBron was in 09.

[Fencer reregistered]

3rd straight nomination for West. More playoff acumen than KG and Karl and Lebron, more leadership than Oscar, more longevity than Moses. West has no weaknesses to me.

I have one problem with that - Roberston was better player than West. Just like Magic was better than West, despite that West have the same advantage above Magic as above Robertson (defense).

West had vastly better off court intangibles, and he was a much better defender.

[GilmoreFan]

More like the opposite of Mysticbb and Dirk. Or Drza and KG.

By the way, for anyone interested the current vote is Kareem on 9, Wilt on 1.

Nominations are West 3, Lebron, Oscar and Karl Malone on 2, and KG on 1. It's becoming clearer to me that the process would be enhanced by trying to ensure a majority for nominations as well as the vote winners, and I say that as someone who just benefited from the system (with Moses getting in). It's obvious people are starting to vote politically, Mikan got 3 votes the first time around, and in the last 2 votes nobody has voted for him at all thus far. I'd like to believe it's because of the compelling arguments we've made against Mikan, but I doubt it.

[Fencer reregistered]

Kareem over Magic, for reasons often stated, even though I think Magic was more transformational to the game and had very important intangibles.

West as the nominee, for reasons often stated. Certainly West over any ringless wonder, whether or not we condemn Mailman as an actual choker.

LeBron, who is ringless AND an actual choker, doesn't come close to going in the early teens.