RealGM Top 100 List #7

[fatal9]

Vote: Shaq (might change this for Hakeem)
Nominate: Barkley

Nah, I can't get down with Shaq. I've read the arguments, but I just can't do it. As I've said, I don't have a set Top 10 and thus am open to arguments about the placing of certain players, but as I ponder it, I'm thinking of slotting Hakeem over Shaq. Hakeem doesn't have the lack of attention to defense that Shaq had, which is a prerequisite for a big man as far as I'm concerned, and he went through every single one of his top rivals at his position for his titles, while there weren't any great centers to challenge Shaq when he reached his peak. I think I'll outline a Hakeem over Shaq argument since my own Top 10 is still a work in progress.

PS
fatal, after post like this above about Hakeem why you voted Shaq?

Based on what actually happened, Shaq's career/team success was more consistent (undoubtedly because of more help though), he led his teams to 50+ wins every year from '95-'05, usually performed about as well as Hakeem did individually in the playoffs, led teams to at least the second round in every single one those years and came out with more championships. Different situations definitely, but they are close enough as players (their primes/playoff performances are a virtual wash for me) that I feel Shaq should maybe have the edge because for most of his career he went deeper than Hakeem in the playoffs (and more regular season team success as well, and probably more "elite" seasons). If I look at it hypothetically though, I see Hakeem doing just as well or better than Shaq did with his teams but basing it on "what ifs" is a somewhat weak reasoning for me. I rank Hakeem over Duncan because TD in his prime simply wasn't as good as Hakeem was in his (and I have a hard time respecting Duncan's competition in the years he won).

I'd draft Hakeem on my team before Shaq for sure though, less drama, more commitment, about equal impact/peak. But even with quotes like "big dog needs to be fed to guard the house", he still won a championship that same year. Maybe I'm being too fair in giving Shaq the vote because I know I have a bias with Hakeem.

[lorak]

Shaq dominated, and won more (well, his teams won more...) against Smits and MacCulloch. Hakeem - Ewing (38 FG% in the finals!), Robinson and Shaq (his finals averages looks nice, but he scored many points after games was basically over, stat padded, just like Wilt). Overall Hakeem dominated in much stronger league, with much better competition at C position.
And BTW, prime Robinson wasn't able to cut down Hakeem's production, but past prime Robinson was able to cut down Shaq's production. That's telling a lot. Shaq was so lucky that league was so weak during his prime and that he played with three great guards, two of them top 20 all time.

[Fencer reregistered]

Great stuff by Fatal re Hakeem.

If there were a strong argument that Hakeem would have won more rings if only MJ hadn't been around, I might move him over Duncan, who might well have won more rings if the Shaq/Kobe combo hadn't been around.

But there's a very compelling case for Hakeem at #7. And I'd take him over Duncan in an all-time draft; indeed, I'd take him VERY high.

[TMACFORMVP]

I don't know how Shaq really stat-padded in that Finals against Hakeem considering the four games were decided by an average of seven points per game. If Anderson doesn't miss those FT's, who knows what that does for the momentum of the series. And sure, he faced some teams with below average centers in the Finals (the ones you allude to), but let's not forget he's dominated Mutombo (33/16/5 and 3 blocks on 57% in Finals), Ben Wallace (27/11 on 63% in 04, 22/11 on 65% in 06), Sheed/Sabonis (26/13/4 on 54% in 00, 26/16 in 01), DRob/Duncan (27/13 on 53% in a sweep in 01) - all of these being in playoff settings. He held his own against Hakeem ad mist his ultimate peak, and during the regular season, the same would apply with Robinson and Ewing as well (we unfortunately never got to see these matchups unfold in the playoffs). There's however nothing to suggest that Shaq would have somehow under performed when facing centers that were inferior to him (maybe not dominate in the same fashion Hakeem did, but Shaq would have certainly got the best of Ewing and Robinson in a playoff setting, IMO).

And besides, while Robinson was a huge part (as I mentioned in my original post), there was another 7'0 footer in the paint by the name of Tim Duncan being that other huge part. So if you add, Duncan and Poppovich instead of crazy Rodman and Bob Hill to that series in 95' versus Hakeem, I'd be willing to bet it's not entirely the same result. Hakeem did face better competition in the playoffs for certain series at the center position, and annihilated them to which he should be prasied; but I don't know why that should count so negatively affect Shaq when he did what he was supposed to whether it was against the elite earlier in his prime, or the good defenders during his peak.

[lorak]

I don't know how Shaq really stat-padded in that Finals against Hakeem considering the four games were decided by an average of seven points per game.

G2 - Houston +22 pts after two quarters, +19 after three q, Shaq scored 23 pts in that second half, stat padding at his best.

but let's not forget he's dominated Mutombo (33/16/5 and 3 blocks on 57% in Finals),

And Mutombo against him: 17 ppg, 60 FG%, 12 rpg.

DRob/Duncan (27/13 on 53% in a sweep in 01)

That stat line don't show how relatively weak Shaq played against Spurs in every playoff series. As much as I don't like Kobe he was the one who was the best Lakers player against San Antonio. Shaq was slowed down, mainly by Robinson.

- all of these being in playoff settings. He held his own against Hakeem ad mist his ultimate peak, and during the regular season, the same would apply with Robinson and Ewing as well (we unfortunately never got to see these matchups unfold in the playoffs).

Against Robinson Shaq was doing relatively poorly in regular season (in years before Duncan), his FG% was around 50, so low as for player like him, TS% probably looks even worse.

Hakeem did face better competition in the playoffs for certain series at the center position, and annihilated them to which he should be prasied; but I don't know why that should count so negatively affect Shaq

It should positively affect Hakeem! And I really don't know how anyone could choose Duncan or Shaq, when Hakeem was better playoffs performer, faced better competition and was better player.

[Doctor MJ]

I'd draft Hakeem on my team before Shaq for sure though, less drama, more commitment, about equal impact/peak. But even with quotes like "big dog needs to be fed to guard the house", he still won a championship that same year. Maybe I'm being too fair in giving Shaq the vote because I know I have a bias with Hakeem.

This draft perspective is a big deal to me.

If I'm considering two players to play the same role, and there is literally no question in my mind who I would draft, awful hard for me to have the other guy higher here. Such is the case with Hakeem vs Shaq.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't know how Shaq really stat-padded in that Finals against Hakeem considering the four games were decided by an average of seven points per game. If Anderson doesn't miss those FT's, who knows...

I don't want to make this out to be a huge deal for Shaq's career but, you realize that getting scored by 7 points per game in the NBA finals is kind of a blow out right?

[dan_atko97]

Vote- Shaq
his peak was the best of anyone left, and though lacked the longivity of other like Duncan, he was one of the most dominant players in history.

Nominate- Lebron
At times known as the next Jordan, even without rings his play up to date has consistantly been top the nba.

[Doctor MJ]

My vote here will be for Hakeem Olajuwon. (Judges, don't bother counting here, I'll make a formal post elsewhere, when I make up my mind about nomination)

Hakeem is probably the last person we'll talk about where I could actually see him being the GOAT. Literally people need to appreciate how much of an outlier he was. He's the only one to average 4 blocks & 2 steals, and the ultimate 5x5 guy, while being a similar build to Bill Russell, for whom of course we don't have these stats.

We simply haven't seen a big man with his agility & explosiveness (other than Russell imho), and add into that a level of fine motor control and tactical offensive attack that might be unmatched among bigs.

[Doctor MJ]

Nomination wise, I really don't have a strong feeling, leaning ever so slightly toward LeBron. Looking forward to seeing arguments.

[Fencer reregistered]

Top 10 perimeter defender ever,

I question that, so I started a thread about it. Other people turn out to question it too.

[Fencer reregistered]

Top 3 scorer ever,

I'm reluctant to grant that for somebody who never beat .503% eFG or .580 TS% any season in his career. Give me Larry Bird or Michael Jordan instead, whose career AVERAGES rivaled those numbers. (Each higher in eFG, close in TS.) Also give me some of the top post scorers.

Similarly, I hope you're not arguing that Kobe was a better offensive player than Jordan (who blows him away in scoring) or Magic (who blows him away in passing) or Bird (who blows him away in both), so to put him top 5 I guess you only have him beating one center. Which one do you have in mind?

[Fencer reregistered]

Question for the Hakeem fans -- if his passing from the post was so great, why did he never beat 3.5 assists/game for a season?

Same question for the Shaq fans; he never hit 4.

Same question for any Duncan fan who thinks his passing from the post is a big deal, as he never hit 4 either.

If you have a "hockey assist" story, great. But in the 3-pt era, I think of passes from the post as leading to catch-and-shoot.

[TMACFORMVP]

G2 - Houston +22 pts after two quarters, +19 after three q, Shaq scored 23 pts in that second half, stat padding at his best.

That doesn't really equate to stat padding the entire series though. Every great player has had some game where they've put up monster stats during a blowout game, it only becomes a problem if it's in every game.

And Doc MJ, I'm not completely sure I agree. We must have different definitions of the term 'blowout' then. I personally would not call a game that went to OT and final FT's, another game where it came down to the finals seconds and a Hardaway three that would have sent it to OT, and a closeout game where the Magic had the ball down seven with two minutes left, blowout games. Blowout series, definitely. But the Magic had legitimate shots at winning three of the four games. I'd define a blowout as a team having no shot at winning.

And Mutombo against him: 17 ppg, 60 FG%, 12 rpg.

So? Shaq still murdered him when Deke's job was to slow him down.

Against Robinson Shaq was doing relatively poorly in regular season (in years before Duncan), his FG% was around 50, so low as for player like him, TS% probably looks even worse.

Eh, how much stock do we take into regular season Robinson though? Hakeem for his career shot 44% against Robinson in the regular season. Not to mention, he had a 12-30 record against him as well. In the playoffs, we all know the story though. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =olajuha01 You are correct about Shaq's efficiency dropping against Robinson, but it was in still good volume. Shaq from 93-96 averaged 25.2 PPG, 13.2 RPG on .511. Not particularly as efficient, but still effective. But an absolute peak Shaq in a playoff setting? I don't think those stats reflect poorly on him at all.

[JordansBulls]

#5 post

Shaq turned Orlando into contenders and then jumped shipped to a winning organization in LA.
Duncan was able to finally put the Spurs over the top but then again he didn't really inherit a terrible team. Sure recordwise he did but that was due to Robinson being out all year the season before. Would have been intestering had a gone somewhere else with no star from the get go.
Hakeem came to the Rockets a team that had the #1 pick th year before and immediately played with a star player for 4 years before that player got injured.
And Kobe went to LA where he was with Shaq who was a top 4 player in the league at the time.

I'm not really sure who to go with right now, but putting together how each won as the man, it is very interesting.

Thus far the top 4 all time that we have voted each of them have at least 3 MVP's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html

Here are the MVP shares of these guys.


6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
9. Tim Duncan 4.205
10. Kobe Bryant 3.763
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 2.611


Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA
Duncan 21-5 in Series with HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA
Kobe 24-2 in series with HC


Vote: Shaq
Nominate: Charles Barkley

[lorak]

Question for the Hakeem fans -- if his passing from the post was so great, why did he never beat 3.5 assists/game for a season?

Same question for the Shaq fans; he never hit 4.

Same question for any Duncan fan who thinks his passing from the post is a big deal, as he never hit 4 either.

If you have a "hockey assist" story, great. But in the 3-pt era, I think of passes from the post as leading to catch-and-shoot.

I don't know why you are asking about that, because all of them very similar passers (and underrated IMO) and nobody makes case that one or other was better because of passing. But on topic - I'm sure you know that Rockets teams were famous because of their inside-outside game and Hakeem with his passing was central point of this offense.

[lorak]

And Mutombo against him: 17 ppg, 60 FG%, 12 rpg.

So? Shaq still murdered him when Deke's job was to slow him down.

That shows how one dimensional Shaq was (Hakeem was great on both ends of court). And his offensive production against Mutmbo is very good, but Deke is overrated as a defender.

Against Robinson Shaq was doing relatively poorly in regular season (in years before Duncan), his FG% was around 50, so low as for player like him, TS% probably looks even worse.

Eh, how much stock do we take into regular season Robinson though? Hakeem for his career shot 44% against Robinson in the regular season.

Ok, but we know that against Robinson Shaq played worse both - in regular season and playoffs.

I would like to see answer from Shaq supporters to this question - if both of them (Shaq and Hakeem) had similar peak/prime (and longevity BTW), but Hakeem played against better competition and was better TWO WAY PLAYER why you chose Shaq?

[SDChargers#1]

Top 3 scorer ever,

I'm reluctant to grant that for somebody who never beat .503% eFG or .580 TS% any season in his career. Give me Larry Bird or Michael Jordan instead, whose career AVERAGES rivaled those numbers. (Each higher in eFG, close in TS.) Also give me some of the top post scorers.

Similarly, I hope you're not arguing that Kobe was a better offensive player than Jordan (who blows him away in scoring) or Magic (who blows him away in passing) or Bird (who blows him away in both), so to put him top 5 I guess you only have him beating one center. Which one do you have in mind?

1) Jordan is obviously above Kobe as a scorer
2) He said scorer, not offensive player, so that strikes down Magic
3) Bird is not really all that close to Kobe from a scoring standpoint. Where you get that he blows him out of the water is absolutely mind boggling. Bird's career TS% is a whopping .8% above Kobe's. Kobe has scored 25+ ppg TEN times in his career. Bird did it 4 times in an era of higher pace. Kobe led the league in scoring twice. I'm not sure Bird was ever even top 3. I shouldn't even have to get into the historical scoring achievements Kobe has put up (81 point game, 60+ five times, 3 all time 40 point games, 35+ ppg season, two 40+ ppg months). Honestly, Kobe blows Bird out of the water as a scorer.

[FJS]

Vote: Tim Duncan

He was not dominat as O'Neal, but he was more profesional and consistent. A leader, not a clown or a problem.

Nomination: Lebron James

[Gongxi]

Weak, between optempo and power outages, I couldn't my #6 vote in. I'll make sure to squeeze this in:

Shaq

LeBron