Real GM Top 100 List #51

[FJS]

Vote: McAdoo
Nomination: Worthy

Why Worthy?
7 time allstar
1 mvp finals
2 3rd all nba teams (remind that all nba 3rd began in 88-89)

In his peak he was a 20 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg for 7 years, playing with KAJ and Magic, who is easier to play, but it's difficult to shine.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTISFJ1Jls4[/youtube]

[penbeast0]

With Arizin, the lasting impression that I get is that he was a playoff assassin in his later career after being a superstar in his early career. The RPoY project was really my first in depth intro to Arizin, and I remember being shocked that year after year it was Arizin, and not Petit, that seemed like the postseason leader and arguably best player on those Hawks teams.

I think you mistaken Arizin with Hagan ;]

But no doubt Arizin was great on his own in Philadelphia.
The same with Greer, who should be in discussion if Sam Jones is.

Greer was often considered the better regular season player but Sam Jones had far more playoff heroics. That's why I was comparing him to Worthy; the difference is that I think Sam Jones did a bit more than Worthy in terms of scoring, even postseason scoring, although Worthy is the more efficient -- but not necessarily the more efficient for the era.

And, yeah, if Hagan had kept up his performance he'd be in this discussion but he slipped back to being a role player after a fairly short but playoff performing peak.

[drza]

You're forgetting that Randy Johnson's nickname is also the Big Unit.

Athlete with the most pornographic name clearly goes to Magic Johnson!

I don't get how either Magic or Johnson is pornographic? (Randy I understand)

Lukekarts, "Johnson" is a euphamism for a guy's ...err.. Big Unit. Therefore, any descriptive first name with "Johnson" as the last name could double as a porn name.

Earvin could be saying that his Johnson is Magical

Randy Johnson is self explanatory

I work in neuroscience, and there's a famous researcher of sexual function named "Richard Johnson", whose name also has all types of double-entendre potential.

[lukekarts]

You're forgetting that Randy Johnson's nickname is also the Big Unit.

Athlete with the most pornographic name clearly goes to Magic Johnson!

I don't get how either Magic or Johnson is pornographic? (Randy I understand)

Lukekarts, "Johnson" is a euphamism for a guy's ...err.. Big Unit. Therefore, any descriptive first name with "Johnson" as the last name could double as a porn name.

Earvin could be saying that his Johnson is Magical

Randy Johnson is self explanatory

I work in neuroscience, and there's a famous researcher of sexual function named "Richard Johnson", whose name also has all types of double-entendre potential.

Oh, must be an American thing then. I'm English (and that's coincidentally my surname) but I've never heard it used as slang before.

[Doctor MJ]

I work in neuroscience, and there's a famous researcher of sexual function named "Richard Johnson", whose name also has all types of double-entendre potential.

Oh cool. Back when I was working toward a phd in CS (which I didn't finish ftr), I did a lot of collaboration with neuro people. What's your focus?

[Doctor MJ]

vote: Kevin Johnson
nominate: Marques Johnson

shout out: Matt Johnson
MDE Track star: Michael Johnson
athlete with the most pornographic name: Randy Johnson
president with the most subtly pornographic initials in Spanglish: Lyndon Johnson

Always loved that my last name dominated the NBA.

Incidentally, as a kid growing up in 80s Los Angeles, playing ball, and having Johnson as his last name, you have to know I made my friends call me Magic when I played...problem was, everyone else was pretending they were Magic too.

[Doctor MJ]

Why Worthy?
7 time allstar
1 mvp finals
2 3rd all nba teams (remind that all nba 3rd began in 88-89)

In his peak he was a 20 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg for 7 years, playing with KAJ and Magic, who is easier to play, but it's difficult to shine.

Okay so first: 1) Happy to see you make an argument, and 2) You did attach a video which can be very helpful, so that's cool.

However, I don't see why you're listing accolades out like that. I don't see how he wins debates with that approach.

In general, I feel like I must be missing something here. Let's look at Worthy vs Byron Scott. How big of a gap is there really between them? Worthy got anointed as a next level guy, partly because he came in with so much hype, and he was more of a scorer, and he came into focus just as people were looking to spread around credit for the Lakers' continued success as Kareem declined. I'm not actually debating Worthy vs Scott, because Worthy is the clear winner, but Scott was never even an all-star, so for me to even say Worthy isn't obviously ridiculously far ahead of Scott is kind of a big deal.

[Doctor MJ]

Arizin and Neil Johnston were a good 50s combo -- which was truly the lead? The RPOY project seemed to give the edge to Arizin. Again, he and Jones are at least comparable, I'd love to see a good analysis.

Well there the choice has always seemed to me to be based on correlation with success. When Arizin went away to war, the team fell off a cliff, despite the fact that Johnston stepped it up and basically matched Arizin's stats.

Understand that in the year before Arizin left, he had 16 WS, and no one else had more than 5. It doesn't even make sense to say "Well it was both Arizin & Johnston" because in that year Johnston was a backup. So literally, that year felt like Arizin & friends, just like the next year was Johnston & friends. Yet the team utterly fell apart, which left Johnston putting up "best player in the league" numbers on a 12 win team. Makes me reluctant to really believe in Johnston's net impact.

Then of course there's the matter that when Arizin came back with the younger Johnston established as the team's go to guy, the team eventually handed the reins back to Arizin as the team's alpha, and the result was a title with Arizin becoming even more of an alpha in the playoffs. Seems pretty clear the team had to make the decision about who was better, they chose Arizin, and the team's fortunes improved quited a bit.

[penbeast0]

Right, I think we definitely established Arizin over Neil Johnston then, the question is how he stacks up against Sam Jones (and James Worthy).

[Doctor MJ]

Right, I think we definitely established Arizin over Neil Johnston then, the question is how he stacks up against Sam Jones (and James Worthy).

Right so, not a thorough evaluation here, but some immediate thoughts:

1. Clearly, relative to their respective leagues: Arizin > Jones & Worthy. Anyone dispute that?

2. FTs: Arizin got to the line far more than the other two (every year of his career has more FTA/G than Jones's best year, and Jones is WAY ahead of Worthy). Arizin also had the best career FT%. So I don't think there's any doubt that that that says some absolute things about Arizin's abilities there.

2. TS%: Worthy has the big edge here, then Arizin has an edge over Jones. Just looking at Arizin vs Jones, the fact that Arizin has the edge here, along with more & (arguably) better FT% than Jones, despite playing a decade earlier when efficiency in general was far worse, says some big things about Arizin.

What about Worthy's TS% edge here? I'm not really sure what to make of it. I don't want to attribute everything in the world to Magic, but again, if you compared Byron Scott to these Arizin & Jones, you'd get the same results. Does it make any sense to say that both Worthy & Scott had and ability to score more effectively than those other two? I don't think so, and I don't see how Worthy would get the nod with Scott not even in the picture.

So I'm inclined to say Arizin, Jones, Worthy based on those things. I then factor in Arizin's defensive reputation, and it's hard to imagine him losing this race, so I'd say he'd definitely be my next of the bunch.

[Doctor MJ]

Whoa, did you see the new Similarity Scores feature in b-r on each player page? (Scroll down past All-Star games)

It's based on WS not actual player similarity, but it gives a great sense of the arch of a player's career.

[ElGee]

Whoa, did you see the new Similarity Scores feature in b-r on each player page? (Scroll down past All-Star games)

It's based on WS not actual player similarity, but it gives a great sense of the arch of a player's career.

Pretty cool feature, if only for cursory comparisons. But it's instructive for us in the middle of the project because of those Win Share ballparks IMO. The stat is limited (box score based), but it's pretty good for what it is. Obviously it's not gospel, but that said, look at some of these guys similar to Jones (my next nominee btw):

Greer (goes without saying he and Sam won't be far away from each other)
Allen (nominated)
Kidd (voted in)
--

Bill Sharman - he needs to be discussed soon IMO. If Cousy went in, I don't understand why Sharman is far off. Yes, twas (a weak) MVP peak from Cooz, but we know how highly regarded Sharman was as a shooter and intelligent player and how Cooz clearly had some bonus points ITO of accolades with his flair.

Eddie Jones -- obviously an understated and underrated player by both personality and raw scoring. Is he worth a look in this project? For me the answer is yet - might fit somewhere near the back of the list.

Hersey Hawkins - Kind of like Schrempf in that he was a great shooter on some good offenses/teams. Maybe a little too one dimensional though.

Hornacek - Hmm. Hawkins on steroids? Another guy to look at, although probably not enough room.

Carter - Been discussed, will be coming up in nomination relatively soon probably.

Terry - Well, there's no doubt he's been a fantastic scoring option/6th man in Dallas.

Cheeks - He's probably on the list somewhere too.

[Doctor MJ]

A few more recently discussed player:

For Arizin:

Gasol
Marion
Brand
Howell
Dantley
Baylor
McHale
Lucas
Schayes
Pettit

For Worthy:
Rice
Hudson
Twyman
Mason
Cunningham
Odom
Dandridge
Bobby Jones
Gallatin
Hagan

For Melo:
Okur
Prince
Kenon
McCray
LaRusso
Heinsohn
Netolicky
Szczerbiak
Battier
Ballard

[Snakebites]

Haha Melo.

So either he's really not that different than Wally Szczerbiak and Mehmet Okur or the system begs for re-evaluation.

RE: Eddie Jones, mentioned earlier. I don't think he belongs on or near this list. Its funny, he's got all the things that really make him a player you want. He's got defensive ability, range, nice all round game. So what stops me from evaluating him favorably? 2 things:

1) I just question his overall impact. Teams seemed to improve after he left them. I realize this can be primarily attributed to the rise of Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade on his two "primary" teams, but teams that traded him just didn't seem to miss him, despite the fact that he was replaced by Glen Rice (who never fit in LA and created chemistry problems at times) and Antoine Walker (yeah.....).

2) He seemed lost on teams that had superstars on them. He thrived on teams like the Hornets and pre-Shaq Lakers and people raved about him. But as soon as he found himself with stars, he looked, well, lost. This is all the more puzzling because he had the aforementioned skillset that should have made him a great fit on more stacked teams.

[ronnymac2]

Eddie Jones does not belong on this list. He would have needed to perform better in the playoffs.

Brand is interesting. Thoughts on Brand?

Maybe Lamar Odom gets consideration at the end of this project as well.

Oh, and Chauncey Billups should be coming up soon btw.

[ronnymac2]

Two more things:

George McGinnis? Where do people see him fitting?

Look at Willie Wise, and keep him in the back of your mind for later threads.

[penbeast0]

Eddie Jones does not belong on this list. He would have needed to perform better in the playoffs.

Brand is interesting. Thoughts on Brand?

Maybe Lamar Odom gets consideration at the end of this project as well.

Oh, and Chauncey Billups should be coming up soon btw.

I brought Chauncey up about 10-15 slots ago and ElGee (I think, might be wrong) bit my head off. But yeah, he's on my short list of 4 right now. I can't see Brand or Odom on my top 100 but who knows, someone might convince me. Shawn Marion should come well before any of those guys except maybe Billups -- as well as similar guys like Bobby Jones, Larry Nance, etc. All 3 of whom I'd rather have than Dennis Rodman although I have to respect Rodman's rings and boards enough to at least look at him first.

[penbeast0]

A few more recently discussed player:

For Arizin:

Gasol
Marion
Brand
Howell
Dantley
Baylor
McHale
Lucas
Schayes
Pettit

For Worthy:
Rice
Hudson
Twyman
Mason
Cunningham
Odom
Dandridge
Bobby Jones
Gallatin
Hagan

For Melo:
Okur
Prince
Kenon
McCray
LaRusso
Heinsohn
Netolicky
Szczerbiak
Battier
Ballard

Which of these lists is filled with guys who belong on this list, which two aren't . . . hint?

[JordansBulls]

Whoa, did you see the new Similarity Scores feature in b-r on each player page? (Scroll down past All-Star games)

It's based on WS not actual player similarity, but it gives a great sense of the arch of a player's career.

Seems like it compares guys who played similar positions.

[Snakebites]

Watching Billups all those years, as much as I love him as a player, I have a hard time placing him anywhere near this soon.

I suppose he might have a case for being somewhere in the top 100, but if someone is getting nominated now it means we think they have a case for the top 60.

As much as I was a fan of his in his years in Detroit, aspects of his game have become a bit overstated, particularly with respect to his defense and his clutchness. Though he had 2 great NBA finals, his playoff performances looking at his entire body of work have really been an extremely mixed bag, and this goes double for his defensive prowess. And as far as his "big shots" there is simply no denying that in his last 3 years in Detroit he was living off the reputation he obtained in his first couple years here.

He was a good point guard who protected the ball and had a very good long range shot, and I'll definitely be pulling for him to be nominated in the future, but right at this moment it just feels too soon.