RealGM Top 100 #91

[ronnymac2]

But when Seattle was good, Gus wasn't even the guy typically consider the star of his backcourt. That was DJ. I mean, it's fine to disagree with contemporary observers, but this isn't a case where 30 years after the fact people are saying Gus couldn't have been a superstar because he was on a defensive team. Dude only made all-star twice, and I've never heard anyone talk about him as if he should get consideration for the HOF (which DJ is in).

Seattle was good- nay, better- after they won their title in a somewhat weak era. Check the SRS.


As for the the Hall of Fame... My interpretation of what the current bball HOF recognizes is historical teams, players, and coaches that represent the best of times in the NBA. It's basically so that any fan- casual or RealGM member-types- can get a picture of times in the NBA.

Gus's time wasn't a good time for the NBA. The HOF voters won't look at Gus's Billups-like improvements, where as he played a bigger role on the team, his team actually improved post-title (one can argue 2004 DET was a Piston best for the team, but you get my point). So they only see a younger Gus in a weak era (infiltrated by drugs and injuries) winning an NBA title with an ensemble cast. He doesn't have the length of prime or string of conference finals appearances that Chauncey has though.

Chauncey will make the HOF before Gus does (unless Gus did some great things in college or the Olympics that I'm unaware of, in which case he'd be a truly glaring omission thus far), if either make it at all.

Still, Gus not making the ball HOF doesn't scare me much. I understand why, and it's not a big deal to me in these rankings.

[Dr Positivity]

As far as I can tell Tommy Heinsohn is white Al Harrington.

@ The Sonics having 2 guys in the 80-100 range. I actually think that's pretty low for a succesful team. They're getting slightly less love than the Price Cavs group as it stands with those guys having 2 voted in and a 3rd nominated vs 1 voted in and 1 nominated for the Sonics. The 04 Pistons already have 2 players voted in. The 70s Bullets had 2 top 60 players. I consider all these teams roughly tier 2 contenders or title winners. It bears mentioning the late 70s and early 80s had low SRS and records in general due to parity in the league. Sonics ranks were 6th in 78 (misleading because they started 5-17 before hiring Lenny), 6th in 79 but 2 Ws out of 1st in the league, 3rd in 80, 5th in 82, 7th in 83. That's usually enough to put you in the conversation and you can win if there isn't an 80s Celtics/Lakers or 90s Bulls behemoth in your way

Williams was not a superstar, made 2 all-star teams and isn't in the conversation for HOF. But that puts him in the exact same spot as say, Elton Brand (2x all-star, no chance in hell at HOF), Larry Nance (3x all-star, not in the HOF conversation), Shawn Kemp (lots of ASGs but got voted in every year, not in the HOF conversations). Manu made 2 ASGs and for the most part nobody complained about it all those years and he made 60th. Reggie and KJ are at 3 ASGs. Dumars made ASGs but has top 20 player type All-NBA and MVP rankings. Mark Price is not in the HOF. On the other end Joe Johnson has made the ASG 5 straight times and Bill Bradley is in the HOF. So it's a tricky thing. Williams being a 2x all-star 1x 1st All-NBA 1x 2nd All-NBA 5th and 8th MVP vote peak is a perfectly logical fit with this spot, if anything it's low for that resume. He's 70th in MVP shares ftr. We aren't dealing with perenniel all-stars and surefire HOFers at #91. Guys who made top 10-15 player rankings even for a few years and then contributed big on succesful playoff teams are for the most part in already.

DJ vs Gus is certainly a solid debate. I'm certain DJ would make the top 110 if we went that far. I think DJ's profile has stood the test of time more than Gus and Sikma's for the most part because he got in the Boston spotlight. I personally think if Sikma was in Parish's spot or Gus was in Ainge's, they'd have made the HOF easier than DJ (especially Sikma, I'm not sure he's worse than Parish at all and RP I believe was shoo'd in without a blink). Otherwise they peaked at the same tier 2 range for people. Gus was clearly better statistically, DJ in non statistical endeveours

I mainly care about how good these players are and Gus fits the bill in offensive function/stats, playoff performances and apparent team impact to me for someone worthy of a spot in this range.

[Dr Positivity]

I would definitely have Mullin above Daugherty and Lucas

(I consider Mullin vs Hudson pretty close. If Mullin got support for a nomination I could switch over)

[lukekarts]

Ok, I'll nominate Mullin. Completely forgot about him but I can see a strong case.

[penbeast0]

VOTE

Jerry Lucas – penbeast0

Joe Dumars – lukekarts. Doctor MJ

Gus Williams – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2

I will switch my vote to Joe Dumars. Defense is important too.

NOMINATE

Shawn Marion – penbeast0

Chris Mullin – lukekarts

Cliff Hagan – Doctor MJ

Lou Hudson – Dr Mufasa

Amare Stoudemire – ronnymac2

Seriously, while I like most of these players and have been a big Cliff Hagan fan on this board, none of them come close defensively to Marion, rebound like Marion (not even Amare who plays C/PF to Marion’s PF/SF), nor are any of them that much more capable than Marion offensively. I think people just seem to dismiss his good qualities and see only his poor handles ignoring all the great things he was/is capable of.

Again, no one new added to nominations