#7 Highest Peak of All Time (Bird '86 wins)

[mysticbb]

Replying to one of your posts from last thread. While this is an excellent point, it should be noted that 2004 KG finished #1 in offensive RAPM and #3 in defensive RAPM in the same season. This is the closest that any player has come to finishing #1 on both offense and defense simultaneously in the decade of RAPM data that we have. And this was also a year after KG finished top-7 in both offensive and defensive RAPM in 2003. And in the now infamous Ilardi multi-year APM, Garnett finished #1 (by far) on defense and top-6 on offense from '04 - '09.

Do you think it is possible that part of the high offensive RAPM is related to the fact that Garnett's defensive strength and versatility allows to play better offensive players at the same time with defensive weaknesses? In the same sense that Nowitzki's offensive skillset allows to play better defensive players alongside him, which causes his defensive RAPM to be rather high.
I don't think that even in 2004 Garnett was a better offensive player than O'Neal or Nowitzki for example, just that the offense of the Timberwolves was better with Garnett on the court due to the fact that the perimeter guys were allowed to spend less energy defensively and use that on offense.


Regarding those rankings: It seems as if there isn't much of a difference between Garnett 2004, Duncan 2003 or James 2009. It is surprising that Olajuwon was already selected at #5 ahead of those. I don't think that Olajuwon ever had that kind of combination of production, efficiency and impact.

[bastillon]

I agree with ElGee that if you think Kareem has the #6 (or higher, based on the comments) peak of all time, then you pretty much need to have him at #1 or #2 on your personal list. He has insane longevity and durability, so a top 5ish peak should pretty much mean he's the GOAT for you. If he is, cool. If he isn't, then you either aren't as impressed with his longevity, or the people that voted for Kareem just contradicted themselves regarding his peak.

I would personally have him after the top 4, and after LeBron/Magic/Bird, and then he would be in a dogfight with Duncan/KG/Hakeem/Walton/Erving.

Kareem's #4 on my all time list btw.

I don't know about everyone else, but to me 77 is kind of an outlier year. not a huge outlier or anything but Kareem was clearly better than in other years. Lakers were a better team in 78-79 and lost in the first round while Kareem performed worse. they didn't make the playoffs in 75-76. Kareem also had some disappointing playoff performances as a Buck, particularly against Nate Thurmond who just made him completely inefficient.

but 77, outplaying all time competition like that. I don't think people realise how dominant that Blazers team was. they were ~+9 team with Walton/Lucas going about 70-12 for a one-year stretch (march 77 - march 78 or smth like that). Lakers were playing like 0 SRS team after their PF was done. they also had another injury to Lucius Allen I think. despite all of that, those games were pretty close and Blazers had to win them in the 4th quarter. Kareem took a very untalented lineup to a fight with all time team and although they were swept, they stayed competitive, something that shouldn't be expected looking at their SRS.

I'm one the guys who's ver concerned about competition. punking poor teams is pretty much irrelevant to me, as long as you win, your true strength is reflected in the toughest opponents you beat. this is why Duncan 2003 or LeBron 2009 don't impress me nearly as much as they impress other guys. also for thatreason I don't think I'll be voting KG for a couple spots. he was never that dominant individually when he was playing vs top competition (say, Karl Malone, D-Rob).

Kareem destroyed elite competition in 77.

[bastillon]

as for Dr J: I didn't realise he had trouble with his knees in the ABA. I thought they started in the NBA and hence he saved himself for the RS. but Dr J actually played very well in the playoffs usually so I don't know if those knees affected him all that much. I know he stopped complaining about his knees in the 1980 and he went on to post a great 3-year stretch in 80-82. but peak Dr J was probably 76 and 77.

btw, 77 is such a great year. you have 4 superstars playing at ridiculous levels. Artis Gilmore after a rough start to the season managed to take a poor Bulls team to 20-4 record to finish the season and almost knocked out the Blazers in the first round, while holding his against Walton. dude was Shaq-like when he got the ball anywhere near the basket. he dunked on people with ease. Walton hated playing against Gilmore because of his physicality. then you have Dr J going to the Sixers and posting an incredibly dominant postseason run after rough RS. only to get beaten by peak Walton, though both performed ridiculously well in the finals. Kareem & Walton are obvious. incredible year. how impressive it is for the Blazers to dominate against that competition ? I think Blazers 77 are one of the GOAT teams when healthy.

[drza]

Replying to one of your posts from last thread. While this is an excellent point, it should be noted that 2004 KG finished #1 in offensive RAPM and #3 in defensive RAPM in the same season. This is the closest that any player has come to finishing #1 on both offense and defense simultaneously in the decade of RAPM data that we have. And this was also a year after KG finished top-7 in both offensive and defensive RAPM in 2003. And in the now infamous Ilardi multi-year APM, Garnett finished #1 (by far) on defense and top-6 on offense from '04 - '09.

Do you think it is possible that part of the high offensive RAPM is related to the fact that Garnett's defensive strength and versatility allows to play better offensive players at the same time with defensive weaknesses? In the same sense that Nowitzki's offensive skillset allows to play better defensive players alongside him, which causes his defensive RAPM to be rather high.
I don't think that even in 2004 Garnett was a better offensive player than O'Neal or Nowitzki for example, just that the offense of the Timberwolves was better with Garnett on the court due to the fact that the perimeter guys were allowed to spend less energy defensively and use that on offense.

That's an interesting angle, and I can see some merit in it. I made a similar argument in a recent post in a more global sense, in fact, and even used the Nowitzki example that you mention here: that outstanding defensive anchors "make their teammates better" on both offense and defense, for some of the exact reasons that you mention. I mentioned it as an underrated/overlooked aspect of why dominant bigs are more valuable and portable than dominant wings.

On the other hand, I think we have to make sure we have a sense of degree here when we compare it to this potential "Nowitzki effect". Because even if there were no such thing as offensive RAPM, Garnett's peak seasons would have still marked him on the extremely short list of best offensive players in the NBA. To whit:

*The 2003 Timberwolves started Troy Hudson, Anthony Peeler, Wally Z/old Kendall Gill, and Rasho. Hudson and Peeler were both low-efficiency chuckers with true shooting percentages struggling to get to 50%, Gill was on his last legs, and Rasho was a role player. Wally was a high efficiency shooter, but a terrible ball-handler and thus couldn't create offense...plus he was hurt for 30 games and only started half the season. No one on the team was capable of producing good scoring opportunities for either themselves or their teammates except for Garnett. No one on the team was capable of drawing extra attention from the opposing defense except for Garnett. Yet the team finished with the #4 offense in the NBA. (A similar analysis of the results vs teammates from 2004 and 2005 would be similar, but if we're ignoring RAPM for the moment then 2003 is more instructive because in the other seasons the effect can be obscured by teammate names).

*Ignoring team results and going purely off box scores, Garnett Was #1 in the NBA in offensive win shares from 2003 - 2005 (he was 2nd in OWS in the 2004 season under question). Garnett was also #1 in the NBA in the more offensively tuned PER from 2003 - 2005 (and #1 overall in 2004).

*Garnett led the NBA in total points scored in 2004 (he was 5th from '03 - '05, behind TMac, Kobe, Iverson and Dirk). He also led all non-point guards in assists over that 3-year stretch, averaging almost 6 per game.

So perhaps, as you suggest, some of Garnett's offensive impact may have come from his defense allowing personnel tuning and that same defense making his offensive teammates better, a la Dirk's offense showing up in his defense. But in contrast, Garnett was still a hugely impactful offensive player in a very real and measurable way completely aside from that effect. Which was really, ultimately, my point.

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '86 Larry Bird.

I'll make a more detailed post later.

[bastillon]

I've re-read the articles about Walton and Kareem in 77 which were posted in #5 peak thread by regul8tor and PTB fan and we should seriously consider voting for Walton now that Kareem is voted in. ElGee made a great case for Walton in that thread. what impresses me the most is not the impact alone, it's the level at which those Blazers were playing. they weren't an extremely stacked team like 67 Sixers or 71 Bucks, and yet they were performing at +8-9. obviously Walton has a ridiculous ceiling. from what I can tell everyone on this pannel agrees that Walton was a monstrous defensive player who would've likely won back to back DPOYs in 77-78. he was perhaps the greatest defensive rebounder of all-time (whereas it has been shown by multiple posters how crucial defensive rebounding is to winning - as opposed to less important offensive rebounding), along with Russell, Garnett and Dwight, who posted insane 30+ DRB% ratings. he also blocked around 5% of the possessions. he contested insane amount of outside shots without blocking them. how much does he impact the defense ? is his defensive impact comparable to say... Magic/Bird offense ? his offensive value is legit, but the defense is what really made him so valuable IMO. the more impressive Kareem was putting up those 30 ppg against the best defensive player in the league. seems a lot like Hakeem 95 vs D-Rob.

I really think it's misguided when people default to H2H raw stats to see who outplayed each other in 4 games. Kareem's game was totally different than Walton's game. His role was totally different. It's not a question of who scored more points, it's a question of who impacted the game more. And Bill Walton was totally doing his thing in that series. (Not that I would even point to 4 H2H games as a determining factor in deciding who was better).

Beyond that though, and this is discussed extensively in the 77 RPOY project thread, I think Walton (healthy) was better than Kareem (healthy) that year, and it's nearly impossible to find a better year for Kareem. As realbig3 said, Kareem IS the second best offensive center ever. But he accomplishes this not with tremendous global impact and by ignoring his own impact, but mainly because his own individual impact is so freakishly good. In this sense, Kareem at his best will look better in the box than just about any center ever. It doesn't mean he's necessarily better, mainly because of...

DEFENSE.* Kareem is really good on defense. Walton was a monstrous defensive player. To me, the best defensive impact player since the merger perhaps. Incredibly high motor, incredible rotations, shot blocking and great rebounding. Then on offense, he turns O into D with GOAT-level outlet passing, but he's also a highly functional mid-post hub. This is similar to the role 67 Wilt was playing, only Walton is a better passer and has a better mid-range jumper.

None of this is to say you're crazy or "wrong" if you think Kareem's peak > Walton's peak, but it's not hard to see how people would see Walton's as over Kareem's and thus behind other big men they see on par (or better) than Walton. But again, it certainly doesn't make sense to frame this debate by looking at raw box stats.

As I've posted before:

77 Walton -3.4 to +7.9 SRS (18g)
78 Walton -2.8 to +9.5 SRS (24g)

75 Jabbar -4.2 to +1.4 SRS (17g)
77 Lakers after Washington injury were -0.9 SRS (28g) +4.5 before
78 Jabbar -1.7 to +4.1 SRS (21g)

So chew on this:

The 77 Lakers were +4.5 SRS around
Big
Ford/Washington
Tatum
Russell
Allen

The 77-78 Blazers were ~+8.5 around
Big
Mo Lucas
Gross
Twardzik
Hollins

But this also means the 77 Lakers played sub-.500 ball for more than a third of the season without Washington. It's no wonder they were swept by Portland. Heck, it's impressive they beat GS.

*If you're thinking, Portland's defense in 77 was only -1.5 and in 78 -3.7, understand that Walton was injured for 25% of the games. In 1977, assuming a constant pace (highly unlikely), the Blazers DRtg would have been -2.2 w Walton. There is extensive discussion about how much faster they would play with Walton, but let's still assume they were behind the fastest teams and played at a 110 pace (up only slightly from 108 average) with Walton. That would make their DRtg -4.0 in 77 w/Walton.

In 1978, as we'd guess, the results would be even more pronounced. Portland would have been -4.5 with Walton in the lineup if we assume constant pace. Again, this is highly unlikely. Simply making the pace league average w Walton would change the defense w him in the lineup to -6.8.

For reference Portland's 1977 PS DRtg was -5.4 in 19 games. Their 1978 PS DRtg, without Walton, was +2.3 in 6 games to Seattle.

[mysticbb]

That's an interesting angle, and I can see some merit in it. I made a similar argument in a recent post in a more global sense, in fact, and even used the Nowitzki example that you mention here: that outstanding defensive anchors "make their teammates better" on both offense and defense, for some of the exact reasons that you mention. I mentioned it as an underrated/overlooked aspect of why dominant bigs are more valuable and portable than dominant wings.

I agree, that applies to bigs more than to wings, whether we look at Duncan, Garnett or Nowitzki to take the arguable three most impactful power forwards at their respective peaks. All three are making it possible to let the teammates play to their strength, whether it is by making a defensive impact like Duncan or Garnett or an offensive impact like Nowitzki. Putting players into a position to be successful on the court is an important aspect, and as I see it as the main way to "make the teammates better".

I disagree with your evaluation about the offensive abilities of both, Garnett and his teammates. Garnett never possessed the ability to create offense out of basically nothing, something we saw from O'Neal or Nowitzki. But I also don't think that it matters as much whether the impact is made by offensive or defensive abilities anyway. The much more important thing to me is the scoring margin, the ability to reproduce a high level of play less influenced by the opponents and manifest that by outscoring the opponents.

[ardee]

And now it seems everyone has a different vote....

Vote: 1987 Magic Johnson

I am honestly pretty shocked that Magic and Bird have fallen so low. And funnily enough, Jordan is the only non-center that has been voted in. I'm happy to see Kareem's '77 season getting its due, as that was his best season and just a monster performance in general, but over the engine rooms of arguably the two GOAT single season teams... Well, it's a bit surprising, to say the least.

Again, my reasons for Magic just do not change. He was the most flawless offensive player whatever way you look at it, team efficiency wise, skillset wise, and results wise. I personally have his '87 year at 4 after Wilt/MJ/Shaq, but I guess there has been some good discussion and reasoning behind the results.

Also, to Josephpaul, I honestly can't see how you can think '85 was Magic's peak. He wasn't even the best player on his own team that year, leave alone in the league. In '87 he was completely dominant from start to finish, and ended with a legendary Finals performance against a GOAT-caliber team. In '85 he deferred to Kareem in the end.

[C-izMe]

EDIT: CHANGING MY VOTE TO BIRD 86

I'm voting Duncan 03 again. He was completely destroying the league and he single handedly won them a title. His year was basically best case scenario Lebron 09 IMO (won with weak supporting cast while leading the team in every way).

[colts18]

@colts18

You need to change your vote. It would suck if LeBron lost because you ended up voting for a guy that already got voted in.

Good point. Vote LeBron 09

After LeBron gets voted in, I'll make a case for Duncan.

[SDChargers#1]

I am tempted to put a Lebron vote in, but we are only at #7, so putting in a season where the guy didn't even win the title bugs me for some reason. Considering that '77 Kareem got voted in over '71 Kareem, I guess I can make an exception.

My vote: '09 Lebron.

He was incredible this season. Led his team to 67 wins, while posting big numbers. Then to the Conference Finals while averaging even bigger numbers. If he had won the title that year, it would have an argument as the greatest peak of all time.

[PTB Fan]

I think '03 Duncan should be a top 10 member considering his epic season, even if he doesn't win this one. Someone mentioned '77 Walton and him being a top 10 worthy consideration.. well I agree with that opinion. I'm re-posting my post about Walton for more voting options.

"The Portland Trail Blazers, formally announced the firing of Lenny Wilkens yesterday naming Jack Ramsey to succeed him as a coach of the National Basketball Association team. Ramsey, fired by Buffalo after guiding the Braves into the Eastern semi-conference finals, is the fourth coach of the Blazers, who joined in the 1970. Ramsey said, "I think this the best coaching opportunity in professional basketball, and I took the position here for that reason."

"I have great regard for the talent of this team" Ramsey said. "It is like an iceberg. What you see isn't the mass that is really there. Sure Bill Walton has to be healthy and play almost a full season if we are to achieve great success.

"I want a team that can run, a team that can make the transition from offense to defense and be aggressive when it gets to defense. Bill Walton is a great big man and he will give us up front quality. I am looking forward to his playing a major part of the schedule."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Mf ... lton&hl=en

"Depend on the health of center Bill Walton, this could be the turnaround season for the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association. So far, Walton is healthy -- the healthiest he's ever been since he's turned pro -- and Portland is in a high state of optimism.

"Our future has to be now" says Ramsey, a successful veteran of the NBA wars who left Buffalo after three straight playoff seasons after falling out with the Braves front office. Ramsey admits Walton is the key to a turnaround. "I want at least 60 games out of Bill this season" he said. "If we get that, we will be in good shape."

Walton, the former UCLA All-American, can be awesome when healthy. But he was an injury prone in his first two pro seasons, getting in the equivalent of only one season's play over two years. For the first time, he came to training camp with no injuries:

"Walton is such a fine talent, so coachable, and unselfish." said Ramsey. "He does everything well. I like the spirit on this club. These players want to win. You can see it in practice and we saw it in exhibition games."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1E ... lton&hl=en

"His third season's been a charm, so far, for big Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers. The sometimes controversial redheaded is off to his best National Basketball Association start ever, and the reason is simple.

For the first time in his pro career, Walton's completely healthy. "I don't think about the injuries. I try to keep up in the best physical condition that I can prevent injuries, but I don't think about them" Walton says.[/b]

But he's had a bad reason to think a lot. He had nine broken bones of one kind or another in his first two NBA seasons. Coach Jack Ramsey wanted the 6-11 center, who was drafted No.1 from the UCLA in 1974, to come to camp a bit lighter this season. And he did -- about 10 pounds.

Ramsey thinks with less weight, there's less chances of an injury from pressure on the legs and knees. The Blazers have something of a new attitude under Ramsey, more of a team concept. But Walton says his attitude are about the same ever.

"I don't think I've changed. I have the same values and the same interests." says Walton, who turned 24 last week. Still bearded, he says he's got long hair cut for comfort, nothing else. The coach has nothing but praise for Walton.

"He is a blend of all the skills of the game" Ramsey says. "He'll do whatever is necessary to win, and that's all he's concerned about.

"I think he could be the most valuable player in pro basketball." But Walton, who has been a leading scorer for Portland and tops the league in rebounds so far in this season, says what counts in the end is the final tally on the scoreboard.

"I go by wins and loses and not by the boxscore. Boxscores are extremely misleading." Walton says. And he's glad to be mended. "It is pleasant to go to practices this season and be able to practice." [/i]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7P ... lton&hl=en

"The red ponytail is gone and so is the bandanna. So, too, are the aches and pains, the injuries that dogged Bill Walton through his first two years as a pro. "I'm healthy, that's the biggest difference" said Walton, who is playing the way Portland folks had hoped when they drafted him at No.1 in 1974 out of UCLA.

The 6-foot-11, 225 pounded is in great shape and is playing nearly 40 minutes a game. He still wears bandages on his knees, and after games he soaks his chronically sore feet in a tray of ice. But to have gone through seven weeks of the season with no injuries is a new experience, one he is enjoying.

"This is the most I've played in the NBA in one strach" Walton said following a 114-96 victory over the New York Knicks Tuesday night in which he contributed with 16 points, 15 rebounds and 8 blocked shots.

"Consistency, that's the most important thing," he said. "I've been able to develop all the areas of my game. When you play two weeks and then get hurt and sit out two weeks, you can't do that."

Ramsey who has nothing but praise for Walton, who leads the league in rebounds and blocked shots and is Portland's leading scorer at 21.1 points a game. "Bill's been just super" Ramsey said. "He's a very team first oriented guy. He's been working his tail off to help this team. He has great rapport with his teammates."

Walton, 24, is the captain of the Blazers. a position which he was voted to by other players. "It was nice of the guys to select me captain" he said with a smile. "but this team doesn't really need a captain to get them going. They know what to do, how to win games. But it was nice."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ia ... lton&hl=en

"Center Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers will not play Sunday in the National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Milwaukee because of an inflamed Achilles tendon. He will be replaced by Don Buse of the Indiana Pacers.

Walton, who leads the NBA in rebounds and blocked shots, hasn't played in two weeks because of the injury. He said there has been noticeable improvement in the injury in the past three days."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NB ... lton&hl=en

"A jubilant coach Jack Ramsey called it the return "of the old Portland Trail Blazers" and the New Orleans Jazz felt the sting, losing 131-104 in a National Basketball Association game here Tuesday night.

The win broke a three-game Portland losing streak and put the Blazers back within 2 and half games within the leading Los Angeles in the Pacific Division. Center Bill Walton made his return to the Portland lineup after missing five games because of an ankle sprain. He played only 17 minutes, but tallied 12 points, eight rebounds, four assists and four blocked shots.

"We ran well" said Portland forward Maurice Lucas who scored 18 of his 20 points as the Blazers built 66-44 lead. "It makes so much difference with Bill (Walton) back. Also I can do many more things with him there."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=12 ... lton&hl=en


For the season, Bill Walton averaged 18.6 points, 14.4 boards, 3.8 assists and 3.2 blocks on 52.8% field goal percentage, 69.7% free throw percentage and 56.3% true shooting percentage in 34.8 minutes per game. He led the league in rebounds, blocked shots and defensive rebound percentage while ranking top 5 in other advanced and basic stats (#2 in block %, #3 in total rebound %, #3 in win share per 48, #8 in effective field goal %, #2 in defensive rating).

Portland posted a 49-33 record in which he was arguably the main contributor. He finished second in the MVP voting, and for his excellence in the RS, he was awarded with a All-NBA Second selection ( only to the eventual MVP, Kareem) and All-NBA First Defense Team selection as well.


In the postseason, Walton averaged 18.2 points, 15.2 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.4 blocks on 50.7% field goal percent, 68.4% free throw percent and 52.7% true shooting percent in 39.7 minutes per game. He ranked fourth in rebounding, eight in assists and second in blocks in the playoffs. Walton managed to top all in four advanced stats (defensive reb %, DWS, Drtg and block %) and to lead all in total boards, blocks and assists in the same run.


In the first round against the Chicago Bulls, he posted averages of 17.3 points and 12.3 rebounds, as he had game logs of 11/9, 24/17 and 17/11 in those three games. Then came the series against the Los Angeles Lakers, who had the league MVP Kareem that was coming off a dominant series versus the Warriors.

"They were both All-Americans at UCLA and now the match up will be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar against Bill Walton as the Los Angeles Lakers battle the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association semifinals.

The best of seven series starts Friday night at the Forum, home of the Lakers and where they've 41-4 record this season. The latest was a 97-84 triumph Wednesday night over the Golden State Warriors, who had beaten the three times in Oakland but lost all four playoff games at the Forum.

Abdul-Jabbar, who was Lew Alcindor when he played at UCLA, stands 7-foot-2 which gives him a three inch height advantage over Walton, who followed him at UCLA. "He's a good center and they're a good team" said Abdul-Jabbar, who spearheaded the Laker attack in the triumphant quarter-finals. He scored 40 or more points and 36 in the last one.

"It's going to be a tough series. There's no doubt that the home court is an advantage, at least it has been for us this year. But I've seen things turn around quickly."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_U ... kers&hl=en


Against LA, he averaged 19.3 points, 14.8 rebounds, 5.8 assists and 2.3 blocks on 50.7% field goal percentage and 51.7% true shooting percentage in a series where he was a major factor to Portland's surprising series sweep. He did a solid job defensively on Kareem (holding him to 10 points below the average from the previous series with a decent help from his teammates), matched him in other areas and made his impact in Portland's wins.


In the Finals against the 76ers, Walton led his team from 0-2 to win the next straight 4 games with him dominating. For the series, Walton averaged 18.7 points, 19 rebounds, 5.2 assists and 3.7 blocks on 54.5% field goal percent and 57.9% true shooting percent en route to a title and Finals MVP. Had there been a Defensive Player Of The Year award, he'd have most likely won that award as well.

"Portland became National Basketball Association champions Sunday, mostly because Coach Gene of Philadelphia 76ers could not find any way to stop Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers. Shue tried four different men on Walton in Sunday's sixth game of the championship final but none could handle him.

Caldwell Jones, Darryl Dawkins, Harvey Catchings and George McGinis all tried, but failed as Portland posted a 109-107 victory to overcome the multi-talented 76ers 4-2 in the best of seven series.

"Bill Walton has been our lead all the way" said Portland coach Jack Ramsey. "He is our team captain in every sense of the word. There is no better player, no more co-operative player, no better person than Bill."

Shue said: "Bill Walton is the best player for a big man who has ever played the game of basketball. We couldn't contain him. He dominated the middle and that threw us out of our game." Walton, who scored and rebounded in double figures in every game of the series, had 20 points, 23 rebounds, seven assists and eight blocked shots in the series finale.

He was named Most Valuable Player in the series for the way he anchored Portland's offense and defense."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fU ... lton&hl=en

[JordansBulls]

Kareem '77 wins!

Man, I'm really surprised that's the year representing Kareem.

I found this interesting. What makes you say that? To me, it was between 71 and 77, and I couldn't help but go with 77 (if I had gone with Kareem).

Not to talk about Kareem still, but I just felt Kareem in 1971 was better overall and even had better numbers and more success. To me it is tough to vote for someone saying there peak was so and so year if they got swept and got swept with HCA no matter how they played.

[JordansBulls]

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Duncan 2003: 26.9, 0.248------------28.4, 0.279 (24 playoff games, title)
Magic 1987: 27.0, 0.263-------------26.2, 0.265 (18 playoff games, title)
Bird 1986: 25.6, 0.244--------------23.9, 0.263 (23 playoff games, title)
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Lebron James 2012:30.7, 0.298-------30.3, 0.284 (23 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-3


2003 DUNCAN'S STATS
Points per game: 24.2
Boards per game: 17.0
Assists per game: 5.3
PER: 32.0


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-6


1987 MAGIC JOHNSON'S STATS
Points per game: 26.2
Boards per game: 8.0
Assists per game: 13.0
PER: 28.2



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... nces-31-40

1986 BIRD'S STATS
Points per game: 24.0
Boards per game: 9.7
Assists per game: 9.5
PER: 22.4




http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/ ... ormances-1

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8


VOTE: Tim Duncan in 2003. He was the only player he literally was an allstar on his team, he also ended the reign of a 3x champion in the Lakers. He led the team to the best record in the league and he dominated in the finals playing great on both ends all season long.

[colts18]

Here are the best D ratings relative to League average in the 3 point era:

04 Spurs: -8.8
08 Celtics: -8.6
93 Knicks: -8.3
94 Knicks: -8.1
04 Pistons: -7.5
05 Spurs: -7.3
99 Spurs: -7.2
11 Celtics/Bulls: -7.0
07 Bulls: -6.9

But what we need to factor in is that Duncan missed games during his 2 best seasons. Here are the defensive results in those games:

2004 (13 games missed):
with: 92.8 D rating (-10.1 rel to LA )
without: 101.0
Diff: -8.22

2005 (16 games missed):
with: 97.9 D rating (-8.2 rel to LA)
without: 102.6 D rating
Diff: -4.74

So if you adjust for that, they have by far the best defense in NBA history when Duncan plays in 2004 (1.5 pts/100 ahead of 2nd place 08 Celtics). The 05 Spurs move to 4th place all-time after adjusting for Duncan's injury. And this is without David Robinson. I would venture to say that Duncan was still the best player in the NBA in 2004. Duncan also missed 2 games in 2006 that would have moved the Spurs to -6.9 which is right around top 10.

[lorak]

So if you adjust for that, they have by far the best defense in NBA history when Duncan plays in 2004

If we look that way then Pistons 2004 with Rasheed are by far the best defense of all time. They were especially amazing in the playoffs.

[colts18]

So if you adjust for that, they have by far the best defense in NBA history when Duncan plays in 2004

If we look that way then Pistons 2004 with Rasheed are by far the best defense of all time. They were especially amazing in the playoffs.

Good point, here is what I have on the 22 games Rasheed played with the Pistons:

90.0 PPG
77.3 PPG (8 games under 70 points and only 1 game over 90 points)
+12.6 MOV (best team in history has a 12.3 MOV)

104.4 O rating
89.7 D rating
+14.7 Diff (Best team ever, 86 Bulls, has +13.4)

So the 04 Pistons with Sheed were an astonishing -13.2 relative to league average In the playoff, they had a 92 D rating vs. avg Opponent O rating of 103.8. So that is -11.84 relative to Opponent. Though I'm not sure why the 05 Pistons couldn't sustain that. They were only -4.9 (3rd overall).

[Doctor MJ]

Point being: KG's offensive and defensive peaks might not have aligned perfectly...but there was still a lot of overlap. And in his peak year he was quite arguably the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA at the same time. Which, as you point out, is all that matters for the sake of this project.

No. He was never a better offensive player than Dirk. Shaq, Kobe, Nash, T-Mac also had arguments too. Duncan, Artest, Wallace were better defensively in 2004. But KG does have one of the better 2 way combos ever.

You could argue that LeBron was the best offensive player in 09 and best perimeter defensive player (not best overall). Same with 91 MJ or even 12 LeBron depending on where you stand between his offense with Durant.

Obviously not everyone cares about +/- stats, but in '04 Garnett in RAPM ranks 1st in offense and 3rd in defense.

Let's pause and look at the offense for a second because that's what everyone objects to:

In that year, X is on the 5th best offense in the league, which means they are having more offensive success than the teams of any of the stars mentioned except Dirk and Nash on the same team. He's doing this while scoring pretty much like a volume scorer and leading his team in all major categories except assists, where he has 5 APG.

When you look at it that way, it seems X needs to be considered for best offensive player in the game, no?

I don't consider KG to be better on offense than the peak version of any of the guys you mention, but NONE of those guys were at their peaks here. Look at every single one of them, they are basically all having down years this year.

So yeah, KG might have been the best offensive player that year (I say 'might', not going to say it's a lock), and no one should think that's crazy. If you just can't accept that because of your thoughts on these other players' general capabilities, then I think you aren't looking at things in the kind of detailed way you should be.

[colts18]

Obviously not everyone cares about +/- stats, but in '04 Garnett in RAPM ranks 1st in offense and 3rd in defense.

Let's pause and look at the offense for a second because that's what everyone objects to:

In that year, X is on the 5th best offense in the league, which means they are having more offensive success than the teams of any of the stars mentioned except Dirk and Nash on the same team. He's doing this while scoring pretty much like a volume scorer and leading his team in all major categories except assists, where he has 5 APG.

When you look at it that way, it seems X needs to be considered for best offensive player in the game, no?

I don't consider KG to be better on offense than the peak version of any of the guys you mention, but NONE of those guys were at their peaks here. Look at every single one of them, they are basically all having down years this year.

So yeah, KG might have been the best offensive player that year (I say 'might', not going to say it's a lock), and no one should think that's crazy. If you just can't accept that because of your thoughts on these other players' general capabilities, then I think you aren't looking at things in the kind of detailed way you should be.

Dirk (and Nash) played on the greatest offense in history relative to league average (+9.2). It's more impressive what Dirk did which was go +7.15 on offense on the greatest offensive team ever. Nash was +3.69. Dirk's acknowledged peak is usually 06-07 or 11, but you could argue he was at his best from 03-05.

[Doctor MJ]

Dirk (and Nash) played on the greatest offense in history relative to league average (+9.2). It's more impressive what Dirk did which was go +7.15 on offense on the greatest offensive team ever. Nash was +3.69. Dirk's acknowledged peak is usually 06-07 or 11, but you could argue he was at his best from 03-05.

I get that argument no doubt. Obviously, the counter to that is that they have each other and other threats. So yeah, I find it debatable, and hence simply protest those who think it out of the question.