#12 Highest Peak of All Time (Walton '77 wins)

[Josephpaul]

Defensive awards are based off reputation so worthless is the wrong term.

Sounds like you've done a good job here of showing exactly why I'm write to call them "worthless". Awards for current play that get decided by previous reputation have no worth.

Interesting, how do you think players get these reputations? In order to get reputation don't you have to demonstrate great defense over a period of time ?

[An Unbiased Fan]

An absolute lock.

Please explain.

Name me another player who has been the #2 player on a 2-star team that won 2 titles and made 3 finals who isn't in the Hall. You can't so...

Now truth be told, "star" is a vague term, and were a player a borderline all-star who really only was good those 3 years, that wouldn't be enough to make the Hall. However, Gasol was a B-list star for many years before this, and his transition to being the secondary star was astonishing. He was far more impressive in that role than, say, who ever is playing second banana in Miami at any given time. You can then look to the advanced stats and see Gasol actually topping the #1 on his team at time and getting mention as a MVP & Finals MVP candidate, all while being the good guy on the team who actually plays his coach's offense the way his coach wants it to be played...oh, and his coach is considered the GOAT coach by a lot of people so the coach probably knows what he's doing.

Gasol was never a #1 on LA, nor was he a MVP or Finals MVP candidate. More to the point, before he got to play off Kobe, Gasol never even made an All-NBA team. With LA he's made two 3rd teams, and a 2nd.

So Pau in 11 years, has....
1 All-NBA 2nd team
2 All-NBA 3rd teams
0 MVP votes. (So I'm not sure how he's ever been a MVP candidate)
^
I really don't see how that's a HOF resume. Pau will get in as an international player, but we all know that's not the same standard that American players are scrutinized by.

[Josephpaul]

I saw the 100 list tell me how he's a better player than Benard King , melo ? So 18.9 PTs and 9.2 Reb 3.2 is a general statline for HOF?

He's not better than Bernard King was, but King wasn't "King" for very long.

He's certainly better than Melo. Melo has never had a big impact on team success, period. Unfortunately that's moot though because if you're wondering how Gasol will get in the Hall when Melo won't, well, Melo's going to get in the Hall. He shouldn't, but he will.

So carrying a injured Knicks team to the playoffs isn't impact? Heck he beat the heat by himself for one game. He got to the WC. Has Pau done anything of the sort? When has Pau avg 26pts 10.6 TRB in a playoff run? Never. He's only avg double digit boards 2x

[Doctor MJ]

Advance stats like win shares? Have we forgotten how he played the last 2 years in the playoffs?

WS are part of it yes.

To the rest of your post, I'm not sure in which direction to respond. So I'll say both quickly:

1) You don't eliminate a guy from HOF contention because he plays bad in a couple playoffs.

2) In case you didn't notice:

In '10-11, Kobe looked awful too. Should he not be in the Hall?
In '11-12, the team changed the offense from Triangle to..."Mike Brown is a defensive coach", and the result was anarchy. Instead of the ball moving around to the open man, it just stuck in people's hands. Mostly Kobe's hands, but secondly Bynum's hands. They literally didn't know how to make use of Gasol, which is just as insane as it sounds.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 77 Walton

I consider Duncan/Garnett/Hakeem/Walton to be extremely similar, huge impact players. Walton is just a touch below those other guys because he's not quite as good offensively imo. But I can't really not vote for Walton now that those 3 are in, with all due respect to Dr. J. I think Walton at his peak was one of the all-time great defensive anchors and rebounders, with exceptional IQ and passing ability, as well as a solid post game.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA

JB, are you saying 2006 Wade > 2006 Kobe? I mean I have seen people arguing for 2009 Wade, but 2006??

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8

This is one series against a mediocre Dallas defense. Wade's playoff numbers were 28/6/6. Wade wasn't even playing elite defense back in 2006.

[therealbig3]

I saw the 100 list tell me how he's a better player than Benard King , melo ? So 18.9 PTs and 9.2 Reb 3.2 is a general statline for HOF?

He's not better than Bernard King was, but King wasn't "King" for very long.

He's certainly better than Melo. Melo has never had a big impact on team success, period. Unfortunately that's moot though because if you're wondering how Gasol will get in the Hall when Melo won't, well, Melo's going to get in the Hall. He shouldn't, but he will.

So carrying a injured Knicks team to the playoffs isn't impact? Heck he beat the heat by himself for one game. He got to the WC. Has Pau done anything of the sort? When has Pau avg 26pts 10.6 TRB in a playoff run? Never. He's only avg double digit boards 2x

You really have to think about this stuff more in depth man. Honestly, this kind of analysis isn't going to cut it, or at least, isn't going to convince anybody.

[colts18]

Between these guys for me

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA

JB, are you saying 2006 Wade > 2006 Kobe? I mean I have seen people arguing for 2009 Wade, but 2006??

2006 WADE'S STATS
Points per game: 34.7
Boards per game: 7.8
Steals per game: 2.7
PER: 33.8

This is one series against a mediocre Dallas defense. Wade's playoff numbers were 28/6/6. Wade wasn't even playing elite defense back in 2006.

Wade didn't lose a 3-1 lead and Wade didn't face the garbage Suns defense.

[therealbig3]

Using the box score to compare Kobe and Wade per 36 in 06:

Wade: 25.4 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 6.3 apg, 3.3 TOpg, 57.7% TS, 115 ORating

Kobe: 31.1 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.7 TOpg, 55.9% TS, 114 ORating


Playoffs per 36:

Wade (23 games, average DRating 103.5): 24.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 5.0 apg, 3.4 TOpg, 59.3% TS, 115 ORating

Kobe (7 games, average DRating 105.8): 22.4 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.8 TOpg, 58.7% TS, 108 ORating


RAPM that year:

Wade: +6.1

Kobe: +5.9


I probably take Wade over Kobe that year too, or at the least, it's a toss up.

I don't think 06 was either of their peaks though. I'd probably take 09 Wade and 01 Kobe as their peaks.

[Josephpaul]

Advance stats like win shares? Have we forgotten how he played the last 2 years in the playoffs?

WS are part of it yes.

To the rest of your post, I'm not sure in which direction to respond. So I'll say both quickly:
1) You don't eliminate a guy from HOF contention because he plays bad in a couple playoffs.
2) In case you didn't notice:

In '10-11, Kobe looked awful too. Should he not be in the Hall?
In '11-12, the team changed the offense from Triangle to..."Mike Brown is a defensive coach", and the result was anarchy. Instead of the ball moving around to the open man, it just stuck in people's hands. Mostly Kobe's hands, but secondly Bynum's hands. They literally didn't know how to make use of Gasol, which is just as insane as it sounds.

10-11 kobe was bad but Pau Gasol himself was horrible, and Pau in 010-12 was still considered to be in his prime. When you have mutil bad playoff performances in your prime it should definitely should as some impact weather you get into the hall over someone else. Where does he rank as PF in his era?

[Josephpaul]

I saw the 100 list tell me how he's a better player than Benard King , melo ? So 18.9 PTs and 9.2 Reb 3.2 is a general statline for HOF?

He's not better than Bernard King was, but King wasn't "King" for very long.

He's certainly better than Melo. Melo has never had a big impact on team success, period. Unfortunately that's moot though because if you're wondering how Gasol will get in the Hall when Melo won't, well, Melo's going to get in the Hall. He shouldn't, but he will.

So carrying a injured Knicks team to the playoffs isn't impact? Heck he beat the heat by himself for one game. He got to the WC. Has Pau done anything of the sort? When has Pau avg 26pts 10.6 TRB in a playoff run? Never. He's only avg double digit boards 2x

You really have to think about this stuff more in depth man. Honestly, this kind of analysis isn't going to cut it, or at least, isn't going to convince anybody.[/quote] Thank you for your in -depth analysis ...

[An Unbiased Fan]

Vote: 77 Walton

I consider Duncan/Garnett/Hakeem/Walton to be extremely similar, huge impact players. Walton is just a touch below those other guys because he's not quite as good offensively imo. But I can't really not vote for Walton now that those 3 are in, with all due respect to Dr. J. I think Walton at his peak was one of the all-time great defensive anchors and rebounders, with exceptional IQ and passing ability, as well as a solid post game.

With all due respect, I feel the need to speak on Walton. He had a high basketball IQ, to be sure, however....how in God's green Earth are people pushing Walton for the #12 peak of all-time. I mean seriously, It's a bit baffling.

1) If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

2) Can someone show me actual impact, and not just narrative? The Blazers were 37-45 (-1.12 SRS) in 1976 with Walton. In 1977 however, they added Maurice Lucas who actually LED Portland in scoring at 20.2, and added 11.4 rpg.

With Lucas, POR jumps to 49-33 (5.39 SRS), which still is good, but not even that great.

3) Walton was a great passer, but he wasn't acting as a facilitator, so I'm not sure why people are overating that part of his game. He dropped around 3.8 apg that year.

4) Portland played at a 108.0 pace, so Walton's numbers are even more modest when you factor that in.

[ThaRegul8r]

If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

That's two less than prime Shaquille O’Neal played each season from 2001-02 to 2003-04.

[MacGill]

If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

That's two less than prime Shaquille O’Neal played each season from 2001-02 to 2003-04.

While this is not what the project is about, I believe with Walton some are taking issue to the fact that he played less than 500 over his full career. However this point should not count in this project.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 77 Walton

I consider Duncan/Garnett/Hakeem/Walton to be extremely similar, huge impact players. Walton is just a touch below those other guys because he's not quite as good offensively imo. But I can't really not vote for Walton now that those 3 are in, with all due respect to Dr. J. I think Walton at his peak was one of the all-time great defensive anchors and rebounders, with exceptional IQ and passing ability, as well as a solid post game.

With all due respect, I feel the need to speak on Walton. He had a high basketball IQ, to be sure, however....how in God's green Earth are people pushing Walton for the #12 peak of all-time. I mean seriously, It's a bit baffling.

1) If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

2) Can someone show me actual impact, and not just narrative? The Blazers were 37-45 (-1.12 SRS) in 1976 with Walton. In 1977 however, they added Maurice Lucas who actually LED Portland in scoring at 20.2, and added 11.4 rpg.

With Lucas, POR jumps to 49-33 (5.39 SRS), which still is good, but not even that great.

3) Walton was a great passer, but he wasn't acting as a facilitator, so I'm not sure why people are overating that part of his game. He dropped around 3.8 apg that year.

4) Portland played at a 108.0 pace, so Walton's numbers are even more modest when you factor that in.

1. Yes, Walton only played 65 regular season games, but he played all the playoff games (40 mpg), which is way more important. At this level of peaks, 17 regular season games are pretty much nothing.

2. Using ElGee's simple in/out (SIO) for Walton, in 76, Portland was -2.9 in the 31 games without him, and were -0.3 with him, for a lift of +2.6. He was a 2nd year player who hadn't hit his peak yet, but even then, he gave the team pretty solid lift.

And he was having huge impact in 77 and 78. In 77, Portland was -4.2 without Walton, and +8.4 with him, for a lift of +12.6. In 78, Portland was -3.3 without Walton, and +10.0 with him, for a lift of +13.3.

3. Being a facilitator =/= racking up assists. He was used as a high post passing hub and outlet passer, and he was GOAT-caliber at it.

4. Walton's claim to a top 12 peak is not based on his box score stats. They are based on his impact, which is not the same thing.

[ThaRegul8r]

If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

That's two less than prime Shaquille O’Neal played each season from 2001-02 to 2003-04.

While this is not what the project is about, I believe with Walton some are takng issue to the fact that he played less than 500 over his full career. However this point should not count in this project.

I myself have spoken out against Walton's career health in the past, but since this is talking about peak, as you say, how healthy he was over the course of his career is irrelevant.

[therealbig3]

Thank you for your in -depth analysis ...

Just saying, your arguments pretty clearly involve winning bias, and you only use box score stats. Your team can lose games, and you can still have superstar impact. You can be unimpressive in the box score and still have superstar impact. People still don't seem to get this, which is why high impact players on losing teams or high impact players with unimpressive box score stats are consistently underrated. Russell, KG, and Walton are some of those players, for example.

[An Unbiased Fan]

If durability counts for anything, it's a bit hard to look at a guy who gives me only 65 games. That's a bit fragile, is it not.

That's two less than prime Shaquille O’Neal played each season from 2001-02 to 2003-04.

True, and it definitely hurt LA. Shaq's injuries in the late 90's had the same effect too. The key with 00'-01' Shaq is that he was actually healthy.

I mean you have Maurice Lucas playing 79 games for Portland, and giving them 20.2/11.4, yet many are acting like Walton carried that team on his back. Much of the same team that didn't even make the playoffs the 2 years before because of his durability.

And still, they had a 49-33 record, so it's not like they were even some juggernaut team. Walton was really good back then, but his peak is being massively overrated.

[drza]

I'd be curious of who the panel members think will be the next 10 names to go off the list. I know ElGee has talked about his 13 "sacreds", of which 11 are now in and Walton/Doc are battling it out now. Who is on the horizon? In the last few threads I've been seeing Dirk and Wade get mention. Kobe's had his name called in this thread, and UBF is making his presence felt so it must be in the vicinity of Kobe time. And if peak Kobe and Wade are in the conversation, I'm sure '03 TMac will get some run as well. Saw someone mention DRob. I have to feel like Oscar and West will start getting some play soon. Is this essentially the current list? Anyone I'm neglecting?

[therealbig3]

I'd be curious of who the panel members think will be the next 10 names to go off the list. I know ElGee has talked about his 13 "sacreds", of which 11 are now in and Walton/Doc are battling it out now. Who is on the horizon? In the last few threads I've been seeing Dirk and Wade get mention. Kobe's had his name called in this thread, and UBF is making his presence felt so it must be in the vicinity of Kobe time. And if peak Kobe and Wade are in the conversation, I'm sure '03 TMac will get some run as well. Saw someone mention DRob. I have to feel like Oscar and West will start getting some play soon. Is this essentially the current list? Anyone I'm neglecting?

Barkley, K. Malone, M. Malone, and Nash as well, at least imo.

My rough list right now has all the guys you mentioned and the 4 players I mentioned going next in some order.