Build around KG or DIRK?

Not Bias · Post #21 » by **Not Bias** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:46 pm

KG for sure, more impact on defense could do more than Dirk on offense except for shooting and KG is a way better rebounder.

Rapcity_11 · Post #22 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:06 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:You can say hes a better defender but he was never a defensive anchor in Minny. I think KG is a GOAT defender and I would put him right next to Pippen in my all-time D teams but people are incorrect to view his defense as having the same impact as an elite big man defender like Russell or Dream or Deke or Admiral or Duncan.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

This is KG. His offensive and defensive versatility in any lineup/system makes him easier to build around.

Post #23 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:50 pm

what evidence Rap? He is a big part of great defenses in Boston but hes played with Truth and Rondo the whole time and guys like Perkins,Posey,and Allen as well. Those are great defensive teams. And his defenses werent good in Minny so again where is all this evidence? Again great defender--big man anchor? No.

Rapcity_11 · Post #24 » by **Rapcity_11** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:03 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:what evidence Rap? He is a big part of great defenses in Boston but hes played with Truth and Rondo the whole time and guys like Perkins,Posey,and Allen as well. Those are great defensive teams. And his defenses werent good in Minny so again where is all this evidence? Again great defender--big man anchor? No.

drza wrote:The thing is, because of Garnett's injuries in the past 4 years we can test exactly how the Celtics have played with and without him with a huge sample size each way. We also have a huge sample size with the starting unit without Perkins. I spent some time looking through 82games.com's 5-man units and this is what it told me about how the Rondo/Allen/Pierce units have played with every combination of big man the Celtics have had:

Garnett and Perkins: 112.4 points/100 possessions, 97.3 points allowed/100 poss
Garnett w/o Perkins: 111.9 points/100 possessions, 99.3 points allowed/100 poss
Perkins w/o Garnett: 109.5 points/100 possessions, 112.1 points allowed/100 poss

Now, let me be clear. Since Garnett arrived in 2007, the Celtics' main starting group (Rondo, Ray Allen, Pierce, and Perkins) in a Tom Thibideaux defense have given up 112.1 points/100 possessions when any other player besides Garnett was the 5th player on the floor with them. Just for clarity, the worst defense in the NBA this year gave up 112.7 points/100 possessions. And again, we're talking huge sample sizes here, from well over 200 games that Garnett has played in and 60 that he hasn't over the past 4 years. Conversely, with Garnett in the the line-up (with or without Perkins) the starting unit has given up 13 - 15 fewer points per 100 possessions.

How is that possible if Garnett is riding their coattails to the elite Celtics defenses of the past 4 years?

And again, let me be clear. I'm not saying that the other 4 players are bad defenders, or that they don't also play a role in the Celtics' defensive results. They're not, and they do. But the thing is, individually, the other 4 Celtics have some things that make them effective defenders but also things that make them LIMITED defensive players. By themselves, they can't play stifling team defense even in an excellent Thibideau scheme, because alone they aren't enough. What they need is the one defensive player to build the whole thing around...the guy who is able to erase their mistakes, to help them to recover when their man beats them, and to make sure that they are in the right places at all times.

In short, to be successful on defense, the other Celtics need a defensive anchor.

In all of the conversations I've had on the subject, I've never had ONE person able to explain the above facts to me without Garnett being the anchor. Usually, at this point either the thread dies or the argument is taken in another direction. When Garnett's around, the Celtics team defense is elite. When he's not, the defense falls off a cliff. You can swap out the 2nd best defender, no problem. Swap out Garnett, and the main unit stinks on defense. I mean seriously...what is the counter-argument here? Four years later, how can we still be having new posts about whether or not Garnett is a defensive anchor?

Post #25 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:19 pm

In my face I guess. :oops:

ahonui06 · Post #26 » by **ahonui06** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:17 pm

EGarrett wrote: People here love Dirk (and also Reggie Miller for some reason), but I take KG all day. Even if he can't force buckets under pressure like Dirk, he can score 22 per game and provides incredible interior defense and versatility. Even if the Timberwolves organization wasn't very good at it, I think it will be easier to build a winning team around Garnett than around Dirk.

That is an ironic statement. Most people on RealGM undervalue DIRK and rate him below Malone, Garnett, and Barkley on PF lists and people think Ray Allen is better than Reggie Miller.

ricochet · Post #27 » by **ricochet** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:so your arument pro-KG is primarily that Minny sucks as an organization? I think thats a pretty decent argument because man was that franchise inept but dont you see how damning that argument is against KG?

You can say hes a better defender but he was never a defensive anchor in Minny. I think KG is a GOAT defender and I would put him right next to Pippen in my all-time D teams but people are incorrect to view his defense as having the same impact as an elite big man defender like Russell or Dream or Deke or Admiral or Duncan.

!!!!.....

KG anchoring the defense has mostly been the key to Boston's success after the formation of the BIG three..

Also Minny was trash.. that does make a huge difference.. Cuban has always put excellent pieces around Dirk..

But.. as far as KG vs Dirk goes.. Dirk being the offensive weapon that he is can finish off games.. KG is great player.. but I've always believed that while he did deserve the Max.. he shouldn't have been playing for that mammoth amount.. It crippled Minny.. of-course the organization didn't help itself too like I stated before..

I believe KG would've worked best with a great offensive weapon beside him.. Like Kobe or Pierce or Dirk himself.. A prime Dirk and Prime KG would've destroyed teams in the 2000's..

SinceGatlingWasARookie · Post #28 » by **SinceGatlingWasARookie** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:24 pm

EGarrett wrote:People here love Dirk (and also Reggie Miller for some reason), but I take KG all day.

What Reggie and Dirk have in common is 3 point shooting. I do value 3 point shooting, but in every other way KG was superior.

I thought KG was better also and after looking at stats and teammates I think I was correct.

I am not impressed with Dirk as a defender. I think Dirk is a mediocre defender. Dirk probably should have and could have been a better rebounder than he has been.

Post #29 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:31 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I am not impressed with Dirk as a defender. I think Dirk is a mediocre defender. Dirk probably should have and could have been a better rebounder than he has been.

You are correct about Dirk the defender tho in his 30s he has been a really good defender. You might want to take a much closer look at Dirk's rebounding tho. Esp in the PS. Hes an elite defensive rebounder.

Post #30 » by **rrravenred** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:37 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Raven,

Interesting stuff but how can that really swing the argument when Dirk still creates more offense for his teams?

Hence my last line. The Dirk/KG argument generally revolves around advantages on D and O for each player, and whether the gap on the other end for the other player bridges the gap. One of the typical comebacks for KG's relatively unimpressive points production is his work as a passing hub, and I thought I'd have a look at whether or not it was warranated.

Texas Chuck wrote:KG is obv going to have more assists and all stats building off that are going to favor him. Dirk's primary role has been as a finisher. Dallas' system has long been about the extra pass so Dirk has many more "hockey assists" where he doesnt get a statistical bump but is obviously the guy who created the open shot.

I agree, assists are a DREADFUL way to measure playmaking, it's just that they're the only ones we have. And having said that, I've never really seen (eye test alert!) genuinely wonderful court vision from Dirk in terms of the pass (which is in no way saying he's bad), wheras KG has always been working the angles.

Texas Chuck wrote:Ill grant you KG is a superior distibutor of the ball and a better passer. Dirk has gotten better with his passing but hes not in KG's class especially when you take their entire career into account. I dont think there is any argument to be made against that. I disagree tho with anyone who tries to use that to say that KG creates more offense for his team or his teammates.

I generally agree with your last par. The way Dirk distorts a defense (at least in the last third or so of his career) was incredibly disruptive and really hasn't been matched by too many players over the course of the NBA. However, the gap is (IMO) overstated when KG is painted as a mediocre offensive player to prop up Dirk's obvious and genuine advantage.

EGarrett · Post #31 » by **EGarrett** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:52 pm

ahonui06 wrote:
EGarrett wrote: People here love Dirk (and also Reggie Miller for some reason), but I take KG all day. Even if he can't force buckets under pressure like Dirk, he can score 22 per game and provides incredible interior defense and versatility. Even if the Timberwolves organization wasn't very good at it, I think it will be easier to build a winning team around Garnett than around Dirk.

That is an ironic statement. Most people on RealGM undervalue DIRK and rate him below Malone, Garnett, and Barkley on PF lists and people think Ray Allen is better than Reggie Miller.

The sheer volume of obsessive posts you make about Dirk Nowitzki outweighs a greater number of people who value him less and don't post about him that often.

Post #32 » by **Texas Chuck** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

yeah I agree KG is a quite good offensive player. I wouldnt want to build a championship offense around the guy but how many of those guys even exist? Less than a handful at any given time.

Brooklyn_34 · Post #33 » by **Brooklyn_34** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:45 pm

My opinion:

I give KG a nod careerwise over Dirk--because of his defense.

However, I will take Dirk to build my franchise. Why? Because I think he needs less around him to contend.

Having him will give me more flexibility when it comes to signing players.

Just give him a decent defensive center, a decent bench and a complementary 15-17 PPG scorer and you're pretty much guaranteed 50+ wins and the playoffs.

He doesn't need much around him to win, and he has proven that.

He produces wins, plain and simple.

JordansBulls · Post #34 » by **JordansBulls** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:22 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:yeah I agree KG is a quite good offensive player. I wouldnt want to build a championship offense around the guy but how many of those guys even exist? Less than a handful at any given time.

KG will ask for too much money as well which would hinder your team being able to acquire anyone else.

Swimmer · Post #35 » by **Swimmer** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:37 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:yeah I agree KG is a quite good offensive player. I wouldnt want to build a championship offense around the guy but how many of those guys even exist? Less than a handful at any given time.

KG will ask for too much money as well which would hinder your team being able to acquire anyone else.

KG is a top 15 all-time player. Every team would offer him the maximum possible amount that you can pay him. He's been paid a ton of money, but he was fortunate in terms of when he received his deal.

GetItDone · Post #36 » by **GetItDone** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:51 pm

JordansBulls wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:yeah I agree KG is a quite good offensive player. I wouldnt want to build a championship offense around the guy but how many of those guys even exist? Less than a handful at any given time.

KG will ask for too much money as well which would hinder your team being able to acquire anyone else.

Why is this always your response to any KG related thread? Why shouldn't he have asked for that money?

Any other top 5 player in their prime would have done the same. What about Kobe getting 30 mill per? We forget about that since the Lakers highway rob every team, but still same concept.

Mattya · Post #37 » by **Mattya** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:01 pm

KG. Way better defender. Better passer. Better Rebounder. He made the crumbiest players very very wealthy people.

ahonui06 · Post #38 » by **ahonui06** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:09 am

Swimmer wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:yeah I agree KG is a quite good offensive player. I wouldnt want to build a championship offense around the guy but how many of those guys even exist? Less than a handful at any given time.

KG will ask for too much money as well which would hinder your team being able to acquire anyone else.

KG is a top 15 all-time player. Every team would offer him the maximum possible amount that you can pay him. He's been paid a ton of money, but he was fortunate in terms of when he received his deal.

If KG is a top 15 all-time player you must believe DIRK is Top-10.

Post #39 » by **Texas Chuck** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:35 pm

The $$$ argument is meaningless. KG has made ridic money. Dirk is 5th all time in career earnings and KG has made more than 50% more than him. But none of that should factor into any of this. KG has been worth every contract he's received and its the organization's responsibility to budget for a competitive team around him--not his job to take less money.

ardee · Post #40 » by **ardee** » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:32 pm

Hmm, I thought it had been a while since we had a thread on this topic :wink:

Anyway, my answer is Garnett and it's not close.

Nowitzki is better than him on offense, but he is a stretch 4, not an ideal type of player to build around.

Garnett on the other hand can play SF, PF and center whenever needed. Hell, he makes a pretty damn good point guard if that's the role you had to him.

KG is a much better rebounder, playmaker, defender and leader.

Nowitzki is a better scorer but that's it really.

If people want to point to Playoff performances, please remember that KG averaged 25-15-5 in the postseason three years in a row.

Call me when Dirk can be your point guard, pull down 15 rpg, score over 20 ppg with good efficiency, and anchor your defense all at the same time.