The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak

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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#21 » by GAME TIME » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:39 pm

There is no case for a goat season, when you defer to another player down the stretch of games. Shaq was never a go to guy when it mattered, due to hack a shaq or Shaq being push away from the basket from 3 feet away. Unless your a Shaq honk, the Lakers within 2 minutes of the game was Kobe time, and Shaq made sure he got out of the way and was in high screen mode.

case in point

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNN920v6ss[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teIq5v0tTnY[/youtube]

This game Shaq supposed goat wasn't even in the game , and Lakers still won lol

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI[/youtube]

If you are going to be labled a goat, you need to close out games like a Michael Jordan. The videos back up my talk, and you can argue if you want in your own illusions, but the facts say otherwise

have a nice day. :wink:
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#22 » by RayBan-Sematra » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:16 pm

00 Shaq was the GOAT.
No player has ever been more dominant or valuable then Shaq was that year.

He got through a strong Western Conference with only an All-Star sidekick and some roleplayers and carried the Lakers past an underrated Indy squad in the Finals with Kobe hobbled and in most of the games completely useless.

GAME TIME wrote:There is no case for a goat season, when you defer to another player down the stretch of games.

Shaq led the 2000 Lakers in 4th-Q playoff scoring by over 100pts.
He was the main option down the stretch of games for the Lakers the majority of the time.

This game Shaq supposed goat wasn't even in the game , and Lakers still won lol
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI[/youtube]

Your Anti-Shaq agenda is so obvious.

I watched that game live.
Shaq carried the Lakers throughout the entire game and scored 16pts in the 4th-Q + OT.

Kobe did good hitting the dagger at the very end but only a fool would blindly ignore the fact that Shaq carried them through 99% of the game and was the main reason they won.

If you are going to be labled a goat, you need to close out games like a Michael Jordan.

Says... you?

A game is won over 48 minutes and despite the beliefs some hold the last few minutes aren't any more important then the first few.
If you think Peak Shaq was more valuable then Peak Jordan over an entire game then he is the GOAT.
It's pretty simple.

It is very close for me but I give Shaq a small edge.
Peak Shaq was a DPOY level defensive anchor at the C position.
He clearly got robbed of the award that year.

For that reason (plus some special intangibles) I think he was more valuable then Peak Jordan.
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BTW great post Colts18!
You did a really fantastic job outlining Shaq's case for the GOAT peak.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#23 » by RayBan-Sematra » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:25 pm

BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. Portland were the ones who bailed him out. They came up empty on 13 straight possessions in the 4th quarter and blew a 15 point lead with 11 minutes left.

If Kobe hadn't sh*t the bed so badly in G5 the Lakers would have never even needed a 6th or 7th game to get past Portland.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#24 » by nolunch » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:03 am

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5

If defending Finals MVP Tim Duncan wasn't injured those '00 Lakers would've had to have waited another year to win a title and nobody would've been raving about how great Shaq played.


Actually a healthy Duncan was 1-8 against Shaq in 01 and 02 playoffs. And if Shaq and Kobe were not injured in 03, Lakers would sweep Spurs from 01-04.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#25 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:38 am

nolunch wrote:
FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5

If defending Finals MVP Tim Duncan wasn't injured those '00 Lakers would've had to have waited another year to win a title and nobody would've been raving about how great Shaq played.


Actually a healthy Duncan was 1-8 against Shaq in 01 and 02 playoffs. And if Shaq and Kobe were not injured in 03, Lakers would sweep Spurs from 01-04.


Yeah I like how Duncan was 1-8 vs. Shaq, but when he wins it's suddenly because Shaq AND Kobe were injured. The Spurs battled injuries both those 1-8 years as well.

I have to ask what all-time great Center couldn't win vs. that team while getting 33ppg/7rpg/7apg from their star SG? At best Duncan played him to a wash in that series as the man....not deferring to anyone a la Shaq.

In 2002 Duncan outperformed Shaq by epic proportions for two HOFers at the top of their games. In that series overall he underachieved with a paltry 21ppg-11rpg and a lousy 44%FG. A real shame Shaq could come on National TV claiming he outscored Duncan all the time. :lol:
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#26 » by RayBan-Sematra » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:10 am

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:At best Duncan played him to a wash in that series as the man.

Quit making excuses and speaking nonsense.

Duncan got thoroughly outplayed in that series despite having a still very potent Robinson at his side.
It was rather impressive that Shaq was able to outplay him despite Tim having such an enormous advantage.

Also you're delusional if you don't think Shaq was "the man" on the 01 Lakers.
That team was built around O'neal and he was the undisputed leader.

The Lakers, PJ and Shaq intelligently letting Kobe feast on the non-existent Spurs perimeter defense doesn't change that.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#27 » by PandGneverfold » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:45 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
FuShengTHEGreat wrote:At best Duncan played him to a wash in that series as the man.

Quit making excuses and speaking nonsense.

Duncan got thoroughly outplayed in that series despite having a still very potent Robinson at his side.
It was rather impressive that Shaq was able to outplay him despite Tim having such an enormous advantage.

Also you're delusional if you don't think Shaq was "the man" on the 01 Lakers.
That team was built around O'neal and he was the undisputed leader.

The Lakers, PJ and Shaq intelligently letting Kobe feast on the non-existent Spurs perimeter defense doesn't change that.

Lol at you ever telling anyone they have a bias or agenda when you're is as clear as day.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#28 » by Gregoire » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:17 am

GAME TIME wrote:Kobe bailed Shaq out in game 7 vs the Blazers. If it wasn't for Kobe, Shaq would be out a another chance of winning a ring, which was plauging him up to that point in his career, which many people have forgotten. It was a great season for Shaq, but Kobe clutch perfomances in that playoff run was a major reason of the Lakers winning the chp.

So No to Goat peak

Yes, Shaqs disparity in games 6 and 7 is huge liabilitie. If Kobe didnt carry the team in these games, Lakers losed.
Shaq had great season, but not GOAT clearly.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#29 » by aol4532 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:54 am

When you're minutes away from being eliminated, dodged your greatest nemesis, who happened to be the defending champion(honestly, looking at how the regular season played out, they'd probably get swept again, if both Duncan AND Sean Elliott were healthy. Keep in mind that the Spurs swept both LA and Portland the year before, and Elliott owns Kobe defensively), then you don't deserve to be close to the GOAT season.

That Portland team was very weak. Sure, they had depth, but depth is very overrated in the playoffs. In the postseason, star power is much more important. If they had managed to beat the Spurs team similarly to the one the year before, where they set the record for #1 All-Time defense, then I would have been impressed. And IMO, here you could make a case that replacing prime Shaq with prime Hakeem could very well make the difference, though I'd probably still give the Spurs the edge. Prime Hakeem and Kobe could maybe overcome that defense, prime Shaq cannot, that's why I say he was very very fortunate.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#30 » by Not Bias » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:58 pm

ecksodia wrote:Wow, the lengths some Shaq homers will go to to discredit Kobe and prop up Shaq...

FIFY.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#31 » by GreenHat » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:46 pm

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5

If defending Finals MVP Tim Duncan wasn't injured those '00 Lakers would've had to have waited another year to win a title and nobody would've been raving about how great Shaq played.


Fine and then you agree that if the defending Finals MVP Michael Jordan wasn't out of the league those Rockets would've had to wait forever to win a title and nobody would've raved about how great Hakeem was?

Your agenda is always so obvious.
Your emotions fuel the narratives that you create. You see what you want to see. You believe what you want to believe. You ascribe meaning when it is not there. You create significance when it is not present.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#32 » by GetItDone » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:54 pm

2000 Shaq is the most dominant player i've ever seen.

Would love to see him transported into 2013 and play in today's NBA.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#33 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:51 am

GreenHat wrote:
FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5

If defending Finals MVP Tim Duncan wasn't injured those '00 Lakers would've had to have waited another year to win a title and nobody would've been raving about how great Shaq played.


Fine and then you agree that if the defending Finals MVP Michael Jordan wasn't out of the league those Rockets would've had to wait forever to win a title and nobody would've raved about how great Hakeem was?

Your agenda is always so obvious.


Yeah because Jordan dominated the Rockets before he retired and swept them outta the playoffs on the way to a NBA title like Duncan did to LA?
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#34 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:55 am

aol4532 wrote:When you're minutes away from being eliminated, dodged your greatest nemesis, who happened to be the defending champion(honestly, looking at how the regular season played out, they'd probably get swept again, if both Duncan AND Sean Elliott were healthy. Keep in mind that the Spurs swept both LA and Portland the year before, and Elliott owns Kobe defensively), then you don't deserve to be close to the GOAT season.

That Portland team was very weak. Sure, they had depth, but depth is very overrated in the playoffs. In the postseason, star power is much more important. If they had managed to beat the Spurs team similarly to the one the year before, where they set the record for #1 All-Time defense, then I would have been impressed. And IMO, here you could make a case that replacing prime Shaq with prime Hakeem could very well make the difference, though I'd probably still give the Spurs the edge. Prime Hakeem and Kobe could maybe overcome that defense, prime Shaq cannot, that's why I say he was very very fortunate.


/Thread
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#35 » by D.Brasco » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:11 am

A little OT but anyone been watching shaq on TNT during the whole Michael at 50 period? When all the guys going around we're talking about MJ being the GOAT shaq always seemed to look a little uncomfortable and i never actually heard him say that.

Also when they were doing a who would you pick for your team with: Magic, Michael or Larry? it was only he and webber actually who chose Magic over michael.

I think in his mind he feels he's either right up there with jordan or maybe his peak was higher?
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#36 » by BattleTested » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:45 am

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5


Have you ever watched that game? Not just looked at straight box score stats or seen the highlights, I mean actually watched the full 48 minutes? I have. I watched it live, and I've seen it multiple times since then. If you do happen to look it up on Youtube, what you'll see is the most focused you'll ever see a defense to stop one guy. They were throwing 3, sometimes 4 guys at Shaq. There's a reason he only shot 9 times when he was averaging 22 a game. That Blazers team just took it upon themselves to remove him from the game. They had the personnel to do it to. They had swarming wing defense from guys like Bonzi Wells and Scottie Pippen and strong post defenders like Sabonis, Rasheed Wallace, and a young Jermaine O'neal. I'm a much bigger Kobe guy than I am a Shaq guy, but you can't just look at numbers and claim Kobe bailed Shaq out. With the amount of attention they were paying to Shaq, a prime Kobe would have easily gone off for 30-35. At 21, he wasn't able to do that because his jumper wasn't as reliable as it would be.

That Blazers team played pretty much perfectly for 3 quarters, then absolutely laid an egg. They were the ones who bailed out Shaq, Kobe, and Phil that season. Anyone claiming Kobe did has an agenda. Believe me, man I am the opposite of the kind of poster who would play up Shaq.

aol4532 wrote:When you're minutes away from being eliminated, dodged your greatest nemesis, who happened to be the defending champion(honestly, looking at how the regular season played out, they'd probably get swept again, if both Duncan AND Sean Elliott were healthy. Keep in mind that the Spurs swept both LA and Portland the year before, and Elliott owns Kobe defensively), then you don't deserve to be close to the GOAT season.

The pre Phil Jackson Lakers couldn't hold a candle to the teams from 2000-2004. They were a significantly better team after that 99 season, exemplified by the fact that they played a similar Spurs team in 01 and beat them in 4, winning each game by an average margin of 22 points. If you honestly think the Spurs team would sweep, or would even be favored to win that series, you weren't watching basketball in 2000.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#37 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:26 am

BattleTested wrote:Have you ever watched that game? Not just looked at straight box score stats or seen the highlights, I mean actually watched the full 48 minutes? I have. I watched it live, and I've seen it multiple times since then. If you do happen to look it up on Youtube, what you'll see is the most focused you'll ever see a defense to stop one guy. They were throwing 3, sometimes 4 guys at Shaq. There's a reason he only shot 9 times when he was averaging 22 a game. That Blazers team just took it upon themselves to remove him from the game. .


Oh please spare me the boxscore melodrama. if we're talking about GOAT peak over anyone else in NBA history, I could name quite a few playoff performances I've watched where NBA greats faced tougher daunting defences than that and performed better than what Shaq did in that game, not to mention the Game 6 debacle before.

- Jordan vs. the BadBoys for 3 years straight before his cast finally stepped up to the plate in '91.

- Hakeem in the entire 86 Finals getting swarmed by a HOF frontcourt in everytime he touched the ball for almost the entire series as nobody on the Rockets perimeter could make a jumper outside of 15 feet.

- Hakeem vs. the Sonics in the '93 WCSF where they doubled n' tripled him everytime the ball was fed to him. In Game 7 with his season on the line despite limited touches he had he had a 23pt. 17reb 7 blk game.

You're telling me the '00 Blazers could hold a candle to any of those teams/defences Jordan and Hakeem faced?
A lot of those Blazers were past their sell date, like Pippen, Sabonis, Smith, Dale Davis all well into their 30s and in a state of decline. Their best player was Rasheed who never once in his career exuded leadership abilities and wasn't even a top5 PF in the NBA that year....or any other for that matter.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#38 » by BattleTested » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:43 am

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Have you ever watched that game? Not just looked at straight box score stats or seen the highlights, I mean actually watched the full 48 minutes? I have. I watched it live, and I've seen it multiple times since then. If you do happen to look it up on Youtube, what you'll see is the most focused you'll ever see a defense to stop one guy. They were throwing 3, sometimes 4 guys at Shaq. There's a reason he only shot 9 times when he was averaging 22 a game. That Blazers team just took it upon themselves to remove him from the game. .


Oh please spare me the boxscore melodrama. if we're talking about GOAT peak over anyone else in NBA history, I could name quite a few playoff performances I've watched where NBA greats faced tougher daunting defences than that and performed better than what Shaq did in that game, not to mention the Game 6 debacle before.

- Jordan vs. the BadBoys for 3 years straight before his cast finally stepped up to the plate in '91.

- Hakeem in the entire 86 Finals getting swarmed by a HOF frontcourt in everytime he touched the ball for almost the entire series as nobody on the Rockets perimeter could make a jumper outside of 15 feet.

- Hakeem vs. the Sonics in the '93 WCSF where they doubled n' tripled him everytime the ball was fed to him. In Game 7 with his season on the line despite limited touches he had he had a 23pt. 17reb 7 blk game.

You're telling me the '00 Blazers could hold a candle to any of those teams/defences Jordan and Hakeem faced?
A lot of those Blazers were past their sell date, like Pippen, Sabonis, Smith, Dale Davis all well into their 30s and in a state of decline. Their best player was Rasheed who never once in his career exuded leadership abilities and wasn't even a top5 PF in the NBA that year....or any other for that matter.

Yes I am saying that. All of the guys you mentioned besides Smith were still very, very good defensive players. When you mixed them together you had an incredibly versatile, deep defensive team. The reason that team couldn't get it done was not age or defense like you're implying, it was because they lacked a go to scorer in the clutch.

You also have to remember that that was the era of zone defense + hand checking, arguably the toughest defensive period in NBA history. Shaq had 3 quiet quarters, then had a great 4th quarter and the Lakers won. You're going to diminish his season because of a game in which he came through in the clutch and his team won? They shouldn't have even been in that position. In Game 5, the game they should've closed the Blazers out in, Shaq went for 31/21/3/2 on 61% TS. If Kobe and Rice don't combine to go 5/21 with 7 turnovers, they're never in Game 7 in the first place.

And if you're so intent on pointing out single games to determine a player's entire season, why not look at his closeout performance vs Indiana, one in which he scored 41 points, grabbed 12 rebounds, and blocked 4 shots en route to his first championship? What about the pivotal game in that series that everyone credits Kobe for (game 4) when Shaq went for 36/21?
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#39 » by aol4532 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:43 am

GreenHat wrote:
FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
BattleTested wrote:Kobe had a very good game and played well in the clutch, but no way did he bail Shaq out. .


Kobe bailed Shaq's subpar performance out by leading LA in every facet in that Game 7:

Pts: 25 -18
Rebs: 11-9
Blks: 4-1
Asts: 7-5

If defending Finals MVP Tim Duncan wasn't injured those '00 Lakers would've had to have waited another year to win a title and nobody would've been raving about how great Shaq played.


Fine and then you agree that if the defending Finals MVP Michael Jordan wasn't out of the league those Rockets would've had to wait forever to win a title and nobody would've raved about how great Hakeem was?

Your agenda is always so obvious.


Jordan came back and lost to the Magic in 94-95, who then got swept by the Rockets. You can argue that he was out of shape, but even if he was in shape, it would have been a stretch to say that he would have been able to beat both the Magic, and then the Rockets.

Also, Jordan had several 40 or less win seasons(he never missed the playoffs because the East was so weak), including his rookie year(why shouldn't you include it? If you don't include it, then you're penalizing Hakeem). He was injured his 2nd season, but you know, when you're injured, then that's a negative against you. If I'm going to build around anyone, then I want that guy to be as durable as possible.

Anyway, you can tell that if it weren't for Pippen and Phil, he was just going to flounder around that 40-50 wins area. There was nothing special about Jordan, when he didn't have a two Hall-of-Famers/All-Stars advantage, over the rest.
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Re: The case for Shaq 2000 as the GOAT Peak 

Post#40 » by BattleTested » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:46 am

aol4532 wrote:
Jordan came back and lost to the Magic in 94-95, who then got swept by the Rockets. You can argue that he was out of shape, but even if he was in shape, it would have been a stretch to say that he would have been able to beat both the Magic, and then the Rockets.

Also, Jordan had several 40 or less win seasons(he never missed the playoffs because the East was so weak), including his rookie year(why shouldn't you include it? If you don't include it, then you're penalizing Hakeem). He was injured his 2nd season, but you know, when you're injured, then that's a negative against you. If I'm going to build around anyone, then I want that guy to be as durable as possible.

Anyway, you can tell that if it weren't for Pippen and Phil, he was just going to flounder around that 40-50 wins area. There was nothing special about Jordan, when he didn't have a two Hall-of-Famers/All-Stars advantage, over the rest.

Thanks for the sig.
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