how many wins is LeBron James worth?

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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#21 » by colts18 » Tue Apr 2, 2013 1:32 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
Well, you have his 2013 at +10 SRS, which is better than this year's Thunder team, who have a 9.27 SRS and a Pythagorean W-L of 57-15, which would be on pace for 65 wins in an 82 game season. So assuming something like 67 wins for a 0 SRS team with 2013 LeBron added...that's +26 wins. Not exactly "not anywhere near 30 wins".

Also, since the Heat are a 7.19 SRS team...you think they're about -3 SRS without LeBron, even with Wade/Bosh/shooters?

In the past 2 years, here is how Wade/Bosh have done in the minutes LeBron was out.

416 min, 760 poss offense, 765 poss defense
-2.9 per 100 poss (the Big 3 on court is +13.8), 106.2 O rating (Big 3 on court 113.4)

So LeBron is improving them by like 10-15 points per 100 in those minutes. I think Wade/Bosh win about 45-50 wins with the Heat.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#22 » by E-Balla » Tue Apr 2, 2013 5:15 pm

SideshowBob wrote:2004 +0.0
2005 +3.5
2006 +5.0
2007 +4.0
2008 +5.5
2009 +8.5
2010 +9.0
2011 +6.5
2012 +8.0
2013 +10.0

... Plus 10. You think Miami isn't still a top 3 team in the east without Lebron?

I'm noticing through these that individual impact is super overrated on this board. And do you honestly think Lebron right now is better than peak Jordan?


Anyway here's mine:
2004 +1.0
2005 +4.0
2006 +4.5
2007 +3.5
2008 +6.0
2009 +7.5
2010 +7.0
2011 +5.0
2012 +6.5
2013 +7.0
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#23 » by SideshowBob » Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:21 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:... Plus 10. You think Miami isn't still a top 3 team in the east without Lebron?


Not exactly. Remember, we're discussing the player's ability to impact here, not the actual impact he had on his team for the respective season. That's the idea behind the project.

Also, here's my response on the last page.

+10 on a 98/98 0 SRS (41/41) team this season would put them at 66.4 Pythagorean Wins, which is 25.4 wins added.

And I don't consider Miami a 7 SRS team, just like I didn't consider them a +5.76 team last season. They played like a 4 SRS team for the first 40% of this season and have played like an ~10-11 SRS team since. They played at a ~10 SRS level in the postseason last year, and a +12.6 level in 14 games with Bosh. I think it's reasonable to assume they were a true +9-10 team last season (their competition was weaker than their playoff SOS indicates), and I consider their ceiling to be much higher this year, around +12. . An average portability +10 player would put a +4.0 SRS team at +12. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Miami would be around that without James, that'd put them at mid-50s in terms of wins (53 PW for a +4.0 SRS team, so we're could be a handful under or over) and right atop the Eastern Conference.


So yeah, I think Miami's still at the top of the East without James.

I'm noticing through these that individual impact is super overrated on this board.


What makes you say that? I could counter by saying that you're just underrating individual impact :D

And do you honestly think Lebron right now is better than peak Jordan?


Yes, I do. Hardly seems unreasonable to me.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#24 » by ardee » Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:28 pm

JordansBulls wrote:LeBron James
2004 - +3.0 WS (44.0)
2005 - +6.0 WS (47.0)
2006 - +12.0 WS (53.0)
2007 - +9.0 WS (50.0)
2008 - +10.0 WS (51.0)
2009 - +20.0 WS (61.0)
2010 - +19.0 WS (60.0)
2011 - +16.0 WS (57.0)
2012 - +20.5 WS (60.5)
2013 - +21.0 WS (62.0)


There is definitely a bigger gap between '12 and '13. Two different players almost.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#25 » by ardee » Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:29 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
And do you honestly think Lebron right now is better than peak Jordan?


Yes, I do. Hardly seems unreasonable to me.


It's not unreasonable but I don't think one can make that argument with conviction until the Playoffs end.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#26 » by E-Balla » Tue Apr 2, 2013 8:33 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:... Plus 10. You think Miami isn't still a top 3 team in the east without Lebron?


Not exactly. Remember, we're discussing the player's ability to impact here, not the actual impact he had on his team for the respective season. That's the idea behind the project.

Also, here's my response on the last page.

+10 on a 98/98 0 SRS (41/41) team this season would put them at 66.4 Pythagorean Wins, which is 25.4 wins added.

And I don't consider Miami a 7 SRS team, just like I didn't consider them a +5.76 team last season. They played like a 4 SRS team for the first 40% of this season and have played like an ~10-11 SRS team since. They played at a ~10 SRS level in the postseason last year, and a +12.6 level in 14 games with Bosh. I think it's reasonable to assume they were a true +9-10 team last season (their competition was weaker than their playoff SOS indicates), and I consider their ceiling to be much higher this year, around +12. . An average portability +10 player would put a +4.0 SRS team at +12. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Miami would be around that without James, that'd put them at mid-50s in terms of wins (53 PW for a +4.0 SRS team, so we're could be a handful under or over) and right atop the Eastern Conference.


So yeah, I think Miami's still at the top of the East without James.


Ok. Didn't see that post. Personally I don't think they're over 11 SRS max and they're probably somewhere between 2-4 without him.

I'm noticing through these that individual impact is super overrated on this board.


What makes you say that? I could counter by saying that you're just underrating individual impact :D

It's possible that I do. Maybe I don't respect how steep the impact climb is but adjusting for the top teams slacking without adjusting for tanking and bad teams slacking off is wrong. For all we know the combined laziness of the league creates an equilibrium aside from the most rare cases (like the 01 Lakers).

And do you honestly think Lebron right now is better than peak Jordan?


Yes, I do. Hardly seems unreasonable to me.

I think it is but that's a different argument for another day. I do have to ask why this year over 09?
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#27 » by HornetJail » Tue Apr 2, 2013 9:00 pm

An average team would be a contender with Lebron added on to it.

In fact, this year's Bobcats team (will probably finish with 18-20 wins) would probably finish 5th or 6th in the East.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#28 » by SideshowBob » Tue Apr 2, 2013 9:09 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:Ok. Didn't see that post. Personally I don't think they're over 11 SRS max and they're probably somewhere between 2-4 without him.


No problem. I suppose we could debate the potential quality of Miami's ceiling, but if you think they're around 11, then there isn't really much disagreement. I think they're around 3-4 without him, so that would put him at +10, because remember, the impact a player has on a 4 SRS team is not the same as the impact he can have on a 0 SRS team. If Lebron lifts a +2-4.0 Miami team to +11.0, that's +7-9, however, scaled down to a 0 SRS team that comes out to +9-9.9 average portability player and an 8-9.6 high portability player.

This is described in detail here

It's possible that I do. Maybe I don't respect how steep the impact climb is but adjusting for the top teams slacking without adjusting for tanking and bad teams slacking off is wrong. For all we know the combined laziness of the league creates an equilibrium aside from the most rare cases (like the 01 Lakers).


That might be something to look into.

I think it is but that's a different argument for another day. I do have to ask why this year over 09?


Why not? He's a far more skilled player (and to a lesser extent, its the same reason I'd take 2010 over 2009 as well). His jumpshooting has made a major jump from last year to the point where he's one of the best spot up shooters in the league; for the first time in his career he's actually able to provide a true spacing effect when the ball's not in his hands. His off-ball game in general has also been in development since late 2009, he's got a much better sense of where and where not to move while playing off the attention that the rest of the team gets, and taking it further, he's also able to use this ability to create for others. His back-to-basket game has developed and been well incorporated into his overall floor game. He's much more comfortable in using that to not only create for himself, but for others as well (to a much greater degree than prior seasons, largely due to comfort in playing down low). Coupling that with his off ball ability (particularly, but not limited to his ability to space the floor) creates a dynamic on offense that completely opens up the flow of the offense for the rest of the team, and we're seeing the results in Miami's overall team offensive performance, particularly in the second half of the season.

Now couple that with a marginal improvement on defense (it's slight, he was very good in 2009 defensively to begin with) and it doesn't seem that unreasonable to put his current season over 09.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#29 » by ElGee » Tue Apr 2, 2013 11:04 pm

Not to start a tangent (just want to throw it out in this thread since you mentioned 2013 already), but I'm surprised at how many people are crowning Miami. I just don't see ANY way to make them much better than 65/35 against OKC or SAS. OKC, for the record, would be the highest SRS team not to win a title as it stands right now.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#30 » by SideshowBob » Wed Apr 3, 2013 12:02 am

ElGee wrote:Not to start a tangent (just want to throw it out in this thread since you mentioned 2013 already), but I'm surprised at how many people are crowning Miami. I just don't see ANY way to make them much better than 65/35 against OKC or SAS. OKC, for the record, would be the highest SRS team not to win a title as it stands right now.


What about Milwaukee in 72?

On that matter, how do we go about calculating matchup odds based on SRS anyway?
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#31 » by colts18 » Wed Apr 3, 2013 2:22 am

SideshowBob wrote:
ElGee wrote:Not to start a tangent (just want to throw it out in this thread since you mentioned 2013 already), but I'm surprised at how many people are crowning Miami. I just don't see ANY way to make them much better than 65/35 against OKC or SAS. OKC, for the record, would be the highest SRS team not to win a title as it stands right now.


What about Milwaukee in 72?

On that matter, how do we go about calculating matchup odds based on SRS anyway?

Pythagorean theorem. That's why they focused on it so much in school
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#32 » by SideshowBob » Wed Apr 3, 2013 3:01 am

colts18 wrote:Pythagorean theorem. That's why they focused on it so much in school


That's what I figured. So as a +11 team vs OKC as a +9 with HCA in the Finals would put Miami at 60/40. Against SAS at +8 SRS with HCA in the Finals would put Miami at 65/35. Maybe +12 is pushing it but its not that far off from 65/35 vs. SAS (67/33) and they were playing closer to +8.5 earlier anyway.
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#33 » by Narigo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:16 am

04- +8.0W
05- +13.0W
06- +16.0W
07- +15.5W
08- +17.5W
09- +19.5W
10- +19.5W
11- +18.5W
12- +19.5W
13- +21.0W
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
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PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

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BE:
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Re: how many wins is LeBron James worth? 

Post#34 » by tonyreyes123 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:06 am

I think 2013 LeBron makes any NBA team a 50 win team.
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