Shaq vs Hakeem 1995 finals (H2H Statistical breakdown)

[colts18]

Can I make a tracking request -- Can you track Opportunities Created instead (or in addition to) double teams??

If you told me before, I could have kept track of it. Though I should mention that I'm not even sure what Opportunities Created really encompasses

Here is the best I can do. I tracked 20 Shaq assists and 14 Hakeem assists. Here is the breakdown

Shaq's assists:
11 3P (10 double teams)
3 dunks (3 double teams)
3 layups (2 double teams)
3 2P jump shots (3 double teams)

Hakeem's assists:
12 3P (9 double teams)
2 layups (1 double teams)

So it seems like Hakeem focused on 3P shooters when passing and Houston decided to spread out the court and beat the Magic with 3's if they dared to double Hakeem. Shaq was willing to throw it to the cutter or the guy near the basket which he has shown that he is skilled at that during his Lakers career. hakeem was much more aggressive than Shaq in this series. He was willing to shoot it and split the double team. Shaq often times passed it out when the Rockets committed to a double team outside of 5 feet from the basket.

[Dipper 13]

I tracked 20 Shaq assists and 14 Hakeem assists.

Both far less than officially recorded. Officially Shaq was credited with 25 assists and Hakeem with 22 assists.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1995/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/1995/

[colts18]

I tracked 20 Shaq assists and 14 Hakeem assists.

Both far less than officially recorded. Officially Shaq was credited with 26 assists and Hakeem with 22 assists.

I might have missed a few assists, but also there were a few assists where they passed it to a guy and he pumpfaked took a dribble and made a shot. I don't count those as assists. If they hold on the ball for like 2 seconds then shoot, thats not an assist to me.

[Dipper 13]

No it's ok, I'm not saying there was an error on your part. The way assists were credited in more modern eras are very questionable depending on the scorekeeper.



http://deadspin.com/5345287/the-confess ... corekeeper

The Confessions Of An NBA Scorekeeper

Aug 26, 2009

Alex quickly found that a scorekeeper is given broad discretion over two categories: assists and blocks (steals and rebounds are also open to some interpretation, though not a lot). "In the NBA, an assist is a pass leading directly to a basket," he says. "That's inherently subjective. What does that really mean in practice?

The bias is plain to see. Just look at the home-road splits. Last season, home teams leaguewide scored 101.58 points per game; road teams, 98.32. That's to be expected: Teams play better at home. What's surprising is that assists and blocks rise disproportionately for home teams — assists by nearly 8 percent, blocks by more than 15 percent. Last year's Nuggets averaged 25 assists at home, only 19.4 on the road. They recorded 7.3 blocks per game at home and just 4.7 outside Denver. (Hell, Chris Andersen swatted 117 shots in 38 games at home against only 58 blocks in 33 games on the road. It was as if he stepped into the Pepsi Center and suddenly turned into Larry Nance.) The reason? People like Alex.

"Teams have a legitimate, vested interest in stats being inflated, just like the league does," Alex says. "Ten assists is way more interesting than eight assists. As humans, those are more appealing and interesting numbers. The NBA benefits and every team benefits from bigger, flashier numbers."

[bastillon]

those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

[colts18]

those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

What talking about? Here are Shaq's TS% each game:

game 1: .651
game 2: .586
game 3: .641
game 4: .555

The math doesn't support that conclusion at all

[ElGee]

Can I make a tracking request -- Can you track Opportunities Created instead (or in addition to) double teams??

If you told me before, I could have kept track of it. Though I should mention that I'm not even sure what Opportunities Created really encompasses

Here is the best I can do. I tracked 20 Shaq assists and 14 Hakeem assists. Here is the breakdown

Shaq's assists:
11 3P (10 double teams)
3 dunks (3 double teams)
3 layups (2 double teams)
3 2P jump shots (3 double teams)

Hakeem's assists:
12 3P (9 double teams)
2 layups (1 double teams)

So it seems like Hakeem focused on 3P shooters when passing and Houston decided to spread out the court and beat the Magic with 3's if they dared to double Hakeem. Shaq was willing to throw it to the cutter or the guy near the basket which he has shown that he is skilled at that during his Lakers career. hakeem was much more aggressive than Shaq in this series. He was willing to shoot it and split the double team. Shaq often times passed it out when the Rockets committed to a double team outside of 5 feet from the basket.

Haha unfortunately it takes about 2 minutes of coaching up -- I used to have a vid on my blog explaining it. Once you grasp the concept it's easy to track on about 98% of players. The essence is "which player was responsible for creating an OPEN shot for a teammate?"

When I first started stat-tracking, I too kept track of double-teams. The problem is, they aren't very informative. Some players turn the ball over when doubled. Some shoot. Some make late passes. Some (the great creators) immediately find the weak spot in the defense with a pass -- that's what matters most. In this sense, double-teams by themselves are really a function of defensive strategy.

(IE Do you count it as a double when a defender needs help because his man dribble by him or because he was stuck on a screen? These are the actions that scramble defenses...)

[colts18]

Haha unfortunately it takes about 2 minutes of coaching up -- I used to have a vid on my blog explaining it. Once you grasp the concept it's easy to track on about 98% of players. The essence is "which player was responsible for creating an OPEN shot for a teammate?"

When I first started stat-tracking, I too kept track of double-teams. The problem is, they aren't very informative. Some players turn the ball over when doubled. Some shoot. Some make late passes. Some (the great creators) immediately find the weak spot in the defense with a pass -- that's what matters most. In this sense, double-teams by themselves are really a function of defensive strategy.

Most of the doubles were really a function of the scheme. Both Shaq and Hakeem were not penetrating the defense and creating shots for teammates. They got their doubles and passed it to the open teammate if the opponent committed too much to them in the post.

(IE Do you count it as a double when a defender needs help because his man dribble by him or because he was stuck on a screen? These are the actions that scramble defenses...)

I have 2 criteria for a double team:
1. Did the ballhandler see the double team coming?
2. Did the double have some kind of effect on the ballhandler

If it fit one of those, I counted it as a double. If they doubled but it came late and Shaq/Hakeem never saw it, I didn't count that as a double.

I kept track of 2 kinds of doubles. Ones that happen before any shot can be taken and doubles during the shot.

As far as the man dribbling by him and scoring, I do count it as a double team if both of them are close to the ballhandler. If he misses the shot, I give credit to the help defender. If Shaq/Hakeem had to play help defense on an opponent who drove to the basket, and they left their man open as a result, I labeled that as open shot and didn't ding them if they made a legitimate help play.

As far as screens, I don't recall a situation where that happened. Big men don't handle the ball in the PnR so they never got doubled coming off the PnR. However there were a few instances where Shaq doubled the ballhandler and one of Shaq's teammates had to rotate to guard Hakeem. If they established themselves, I counted the shot against them.

[colts18]

those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

Technically you are kind of correct but that TS% is probably off. Shaq scored 10 points in the first half of Game 2. He scored 23 in the 2nd half. If you take that out, he has 89 points in 158 minutes or 20.3 points per 36. By my count he went 9-12 in the 2nd half but I didn't count FT% so I'm not sure you TS% figure is correct. He went 35-62 (56.5 FG%) total if exclude the 2nd half of game 2.

[mysticbb]

Colts18, it makes no sense to exclude any part of that series, because O'Neal scored like that in the 2nd half of game 2. That isn't something which didn't happen. There is no reasonable explanation to exclude that part. Assuming that a smaller sample would paint a more accurate picture is a logical fallacy.

No matter what, O'Neal outplayed Olajuwon in that series. That Scott and Anderson couldn't make open attempts while Horry, Smith, Elie and Cassell were able to had nothing to do with Olajuwon or O'Neal. There wasn't some significant difference in the quality of the passes by either center. The Magic should have won game 1 and 3 with normal results for the perimeter shooters. Using that sweep as some sort of justification to place Olajuwon on some kind of olymp is misguided.

[nolunch]

those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

It's very stupid to mention Shaq's 2nd half of Game 2. What do you want him to do ? Staying in the bench and doing nothing ?? Are you blind ? How come you only focus on Shaq scoring 20 pts in 2nd half of Game and NEVER look at the another end that Olajuwon shooting 29 SHOTS PER GAME ??

[tsherkin]

Tone it down.

[Gregoire]

Hakeem outplayed Shaq in these series, but slightly. and supporting cast were more talented in Shaq case. but these was not peak Shaq 2000.

[tsherkin]

Hakeem's supporting cast pretty clearly outplayed Shaq's in that series, Gregoire.

[Gregoire]

Hakeem's supporting cast pretty clearly outplayed Shaq's in that series, Gregoire.

Maybe in these series. But I speak about talent.

[tsherkin]

Talent is only relevant if realized, though. The talent level was meaningless because they played like dog crap.

[Gregoire]

Talent is only relevant if realized, though. The talent level was meaningless because they played like dog crap.

disagree about dog crap, imo houston cast played if better only slightly, and all season long penny and co were better.

[colts18]

Talent is only relevant if realized, though. The talent level was meaningless because they played like dog crap.

disagree about dog crap, imo houston cast played if better only slightly, and all season long penny and co were better.

Well all season long, they were the better team and had the better record than the Rockets. What matters is that the Rockets were better in the 4 game sample.

[tsherkin]

Talent is only relevant if realized, though. The talent level was meaningless because they played like dog crap.

disagree about dog crap, imo houston cast played if better only slightly, and all season long penny and co were better.

I dunno what else to call Nick Anderson...

[colts18]

Colts18, it makes no sense to exclude any part of that series, because O'Neal scored like that in the 2nd half of game 2. That isn't something which didn't happen. There is no reasonable explanation to exclude that part. Assuming that a smaller sample would paint a more accurate picture is a logical fallacy.

No matter what, O'Neal outplayed Olajuwon in that series. That Scott and Anderson couldn't make open attempts while Horry, Smith, Elie and Cassell were able to had nothing to do with Olajuwon or O'Neal. There wasn't some significant difference in the quality of the passes by either center. The Magic should have won game 1 and 3 with normal results for the perimeter shooters. Using that sweep as some sort of justification to place Olajuwon on some kind of olymp is misguided.

I think Bastillion's implication was that Shaq stat padded during garbage time because the game was like 20 points in Houston's favor in the 2nd half. But with like 7 minutes left, the Magic were within 9 points so its hard to say its garbage time when the magic had a legit chance to win it (the Rockets came from 20 down in game 1 too).