Lbj 13 or Shaq 00, closest player to be best on off and def?

[ardee]

I don't know how anyone can argue that a sophomore Shaq was a better offensive player than a zenith Hakeem. \

The answers are '94 Hakeem and '00 Shaq, and arguably '68 Wilt.

[Dipper 13]

http://stats.nba.com/playerStats.html?P ... ed&PerMode

In 2000, the Lakers offense was +5.0 (106.3) with Shaq on the floor, and the defense was -6.0 (95.3). League average for the season is 101.3, according to NBA.com. So basically the Lakers were +11 with him on the court. Not too many players in league history can say that.

[richboy]

Yeah pretty much the only year Shaq decided to play some defense.

To answer the question 94-95 David Robinson lead the league in both offensive and defensive WS. He finished just second in 95-96. Michael Jordan was 1st in offense that year and second in defensive WS.

Kareem was tops in WS on offense and defense back to back years. From 75-77.

Shaq was tops in both in 00

2002 Duncan was 1st in offensive WS and 2nd defensively.

Lebron was actually 10th this year in defensive WS. Last year he was second in both. The guy actually on the list this year would be Kevin Durant. 2nd on offense and 3rd on defense.

WS obviously not a perfect way to see who was best but it at least can get some of the nominations. I think its fair to say we have had times at least in the regular season one player has been the best at both.

[Dipper 13]

^ I don't know how effective a stat win shares is, but I was a bit surprised to see Wilt at #1 in defensive win shares for 1967-68. His main problem was playing defense outside of the paint, especially on a switch where a smaller guy could drive past him with quickness.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_z-7ODb-9g&t=2m1s

[Jordan23Forever]

'13 Lebron isn't as good a defensive player as '89-'92 MJ. Please, just stop it.

[TheChosen618]

'13 Lebron isn't as good a defensive player as '89-'92 MJ. Please, just stop it.

How do you even determine that?

I would say 2012 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was defensively. I'm not as high on 2013 Lebron primarily because he coasted sometimes, whereas Lebron went all out and played with more effort defensively in 2012. I would say ability wise though, Lebron in 2013 was better than Jordan ever was and it's mainly because of his versatility.

Lebron could defend 1-5, play exceptional man to man defense, and is one of the best help defenders ever. The versatility is the difference between Lebron and Jordan's defense.

[Gregoire]

'13 Lebron isn't as good a defensive player as '89-'92 MJ. Please, just stop it.

How do you even determine that?

I would say 2012 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was defensively. I'm not as high on 2013 Lebron primarily because he coasted sometimes, whereas Lebron went all out and played with more effort defensively in 2012. I would say ability wise though, Lebron in 2013 was better than Jordan ever was and it's mainly because of his versatility.

Lebron could defend 1-5, play exceptional man to man defense, and is one of the best help defenders ever. The versatility is the difference between Lebron and Jordan's defense.

IMO peak Jordan was slightly better than peak Lebron on D. Because of man D and off-ball D.

[Jordan23Forever]

'13 Lebron isn't as good a defensive player as '89-'92 MJ. Please, just stop it.

How do you even determine that?

I would say 2012 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was defensively. I'm not as high on 2013 Lebron primarily because he coasted sometimes, whereas Lebron went all out and played with more effort defensively in 2012. I would say ability wise though, Lebron in 2013 was better than Jordan ever was and it's mainly because of his versatility.

Lebron could defend 1-5, play exceptional man to man defense, and is one of the best help defenders ever. The versatility is the difference between Lebron and Jordan's defense.

I determine that by watching the games. One of the best help defenders ever? Jordan was pretty clearly a better help defender. Destroys him as a man defender at the 1-3 spots. Exerted more energy, had better fundamentals, and better instincts. Better at making plays defensively to change the momentum of games, a la peak Wade.

And the versatility may be a difference between them defensively, but it doesn't mean that James' defensive impact > MJ's. The same way that Melo's more diverse skill set doesn't make him have a greater offensive impact than prime Shaq.

[barborous]

Lebron could defend 1-5, play exceptional man to man defense, and is one of the best help defenders ever. The versatility is the difference between Lebron and Jordan's defense.

That's just not true. LeBron can't defend 1 or 5 for more than spot minutes (which anyone can do with varying degrees of success, so that's basically like saying he can't defend them at all), and tends to get tired out defending 4s and is bad at chasing any wing player around screens - a huge part of guarding 2s. He plays very good man to man defense, but Jordan was leaps and bounds ahead of him as a help defender as well, with much better anticipation and some insanely athletic reflexes for blocks and steals that LeBron has never and will never match.

[TheChosen618]

That's just not true. LeBron can't defend 1 or 5 for more than spot minutes (which anyone can do with varying degrees of success, so that's basically like saying he can't defend them at all), and tends to get tired out defending 4s and is bad at chasing any wing player around screens - a huge part of guarding 2s.

This is based on what exactly?

Because a big scored on him like once? So if Tiago Splitter scores on Dwight Howard on one possession, that means he can't guard him?

Or is it because Chris Paul scored on him in one possession and even though Chris Paul is a player that no player in the NBA is capable of stopping, that means he can't guard him either?

The fact that Lebron can guard about 90% of each players in each position should show you that he can guard all 5 positions. The only reason why he can't guard those other 10% is mainly because nobody can guard them anyways because they are too talented. However, I really doubt those 10% would actually do anything against Lebron anyways, it's just that they won't struggle as much as those other 90% would.

[barborous]

This is based on what exactly?

Because a big scored on him like once? So if Tiago Splitter scores on Dwight Howard on one possession, that means he can't guard him?

Or is it because Chris Paul scored on him in one possession and even though Chris Paul is a player that no player in the NBA is capable of stopping, that means he can't guard him either?

The fact that Lebron can guard about 90% of each players in each position should show you that he can guard all 5 positions. The only reason why he can't guard those other 10% is mainly because nobody can guard them anyways because they are too talented.

I don't know what you're going on about. LeBron has never consistently guarded a 5 man to man in any game in my memory, and doesn't usually ever guard PGs for extended minutes for the reasons I'm talking about. I'm not thinking of any specific instances here. He can obviously guard slower PGs or PGs that don't use their quickness effectively, but plenty of players can do that. He's still a very good, quick wing defender who doesn't foul, and very decent in the post as well, but to say he's uniquely capable of guarding 1s (or to say he can guard 5s at all) just isn't accurate.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't like the "can defend 1-5" argument either, because if there was any top tier big men in the league, LeBron couldn't defend them with any success for very long.

[TheChosen618]

I don't know what you're going on about. LeBron has never consistently guarded a 5 man to man in any game in my memory, and doesn't usually ever guard PGs for extended minutes for the reasons I'm talking about. I'm not thinking of any specific instances here. He can obviously guard slower PGs or PGs that don't use their quickness effectively, but plenty of players can do that. He's still a very good, quick wing defender who doesn't foul, and very decent in the post as well, but to say he's uniquely capable of guarding 1s (or to say he can guard 5s at all) just isn't accurate.

He doesn't guard a single player extensively because that's not how the Heat's defense works. The Heat often times switch in a lot of their screens and such and force traps. The reason why they do is because of Lebron's ability to guard all 5 positions. You can switch him on to anything and there won't be a mismatch. He can guard Chris Paul to Tyson Chandler on a switch and there won't be a problem anywhere.

So now lets take Jordan for example, if he was guarding CP3 and he was switched on to Chandler, then Chandler would have a mismatch and an easy lay in for the basket.

Also, you do realize that Lebron has to use some of that energy for the offensive end as well, right? Lebron is human out there and he has limited stamina like any player in NBA history.

If you asked him to guard any player in the league for an entire game, he could do it, and he could do it successfully. He is not asked to do it in Miami for a plethora of reasons, one of them being stamina and the other being that's not how his team's defense works.

[Showtime:Part2]

shaq 00 was the single greatest season any player has ever put together imo. only a handful of guys are even in the discussion and lbj, no matter what yr, is not one of them.

[TheChosen618]

shaq 00 was the single greatest season any player has ever put together imo. only a handful of guys are even in the discussion and lbj, no matter what yr, is not one of them.

That's not the question. The question was who was both the best offensive and defensive player in the league or the closest to it.

I don't like the "can defend 1-5" argument either, because if there was any top tier big men in the league, LeBron couldn't defend them with any success for very long.

It depends on what you mean by success. I doubt the top tier big man would have a layup drill over him. He would probably have success, but that player would probably have just as much success against other bigs.

[barborous]

He doesn't guard a single player extensively because that's not how the Heat's defense works. The Heat often times switch in a lot of their screens and such and force traps. The reason why they do is because of Lebron's ability to guard all 5 positions. You can switch him on to anything and there won't be a mismatch. He can guard Chris Paul to Tyson Chandler on a switch and there won't be a problem anywhere.

So now lets take Jordan for example, if he was guarding CP3 and he was switched on to Chandler, then Chandler would have a mismatch and an easy lay in for the basket.

Every team switches. The Miami Heat are in no way special defensively in that regard. Every player still has primary assignments. And there would be problems. Bron can chase around CP3 for a single possession, obviously, since he's quick, but Chandler would still have an easy finish if they were close to the basket, as you saw in the Pacers series whenever LeBron was switched onto Hibbert. Not quite as easy as with Jordan since Jordan is smaller, but he still can't really guard 5s.

Also, you do realize that Lebron has to use some of that energy for the offensive end as well, right? Lebron is human out there and he has limited stamina like any player in NBA history.

I don't get what you're saying. This is true for literally every player in the history of the game.

If you asked him to guard any player in the league for an entire game, he could do it, and he could do it successfully. He is not asked to do it in Miami for a plethora of reasons, one of them being stamina and the other being that's not how his team's defense works.

That's not true at all. To pick two players who really aren't very good or in your "elite 10%", asking him to guard Darren Collison or Javale McGee for an entire game would be very ineffective.

[Showtime:Part2]

shaq 00 was the single greatest season any player has ever put together imo. only a handful of guys are even in the discussion and lbj, no matter what yr, is not one of them.

That's not the question. The question was who was both the best offensive and defensive player in the league or the closest to it.

I don't like the "can defend 1-5" argument either, because if there was any top tier big men in the league, LeBron couldn't defend them with any success for very long.

It depends on what you mean by success. I doubt the top tier big man would have a layup drill over him. He would probably have success, but that player would probably have just as much success against other bigs.

well... one could infer from my post that to have the single greatest season of all nba players you would have to be the best on offense and defense...

[TheChosen618]

Every team switches. The Miami Heat are in no way special defensively in that regard.

The Heat are special in the sense that they switch in almost everything and switch the most frequently.

Every player still has primary assignments. And there would be problems. Bron can chase around CP3 for a single possession, obviously, since he's quick, but Chandler would still have an easy finish if they were close to the basket, as you saw in the Pacers series whenever LeBron was switched onto Hibbert. Not quite as easy as with Jordan since Jordan is smaller, but he still can't really guard 5s.

Like most versatile defenders, he is a roamer or plays center-field and it's because he and those other defenders can guard anyone.

Man to man defense is overrated anyways and man to man defense does not have the same impact the help/off-ball defense has which is Lebron's main specialty. Lebron is still elite as an on-ball defender, but that's not where Lebron makes his mark defensively.

Sure, Chandler would have an easy finish if he were close to the basket, this applies to just about every NBA player that guards him, but Lebron is big and strong enough to deny him position from getting the ball in the first place.

I'm not sure why you brought up Hibbert either. Hibbert is just a good scorer and most bigs can't guard him. Again, just because Hibbert had some success against Lebron doesn't mean Lebron can't guard him. It just means Hibbert is good. If Hibbert scores on Duncan, does that mean Duncan can't guard him either?

Lebron has had no problems guarding Centers and bigs when called upon. Since we are talking about the ECF, why not mention how Lebron defended West the best especially in the 4th? He also guarded Ibaka and Perkins plenty in the 2012 Finals.

That's not true at all. To pick two players who really aren't very good or in your "elite 10%", asking him to guard Darren Collison or Javale McGee for an entire game would be very ineffective.

Yeah, that's why Lebron isn't asked to guard anyone 100% of the time like you want him to or ask him to do. It's mainly because this is a team game, 5 on 5, he can lock down one guy, but then there will be 4 others that could go off.

[NO-KG-AI]

Roy Hibbert is not a great offensive player. Why didn't LeBron just guard him and take him out of his game, since he was **** on Miami?

Being able to be average at any spot isn't really a boon IMO. It's nice to have, but doesn't make the difference between being a great and all time great defender. I feel that Mike was a better man defender on the perimeter, 1-3, and a better help defender. LeBron is obviously awesome at both, and is great to have in the case of switches, but he's not a guy that can just guard every position long term.

[barborous]

^ NO-KG-AI covered everything I wanted to say. I don't "want him or ask him to do" anything. He's just not as special defensively as you make out.