Jordan at his best: 90, 91 or 92 year?

[ceiling raiser]

I'm a 92 guy, but then again, I'm personally big on the do-it-all kinda guy who has clearly mastered the game and almost oversees the court like a quarterback or free safety, and 92 Jordan was that guy.

He even called himself a "utility" player.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCJR0RiRadI&t=5m22s

OT - This is a longshot, but do you recall an interview from the 91 playoffs (forget which round) with Magic, in which he states that he was contemplating retirement after the postseason that year?

[Quotatious]

This is a longshot, but do you recall an interview from the 91 playoffs (forget which round) with Magic, in which he states that he was contemplating retirement after the postseason that year?

This question isn't being asked to me so pardon for that, but that's very interesting. I find it hard to believe that MJ, with all his competitive desire, would've been content with just one championship. I have no reason not to believe you though.

Ginobili, ShaqAttack - I agree that MJ already regressed a bit athletically by 93, but he compensated that with his shooting and basketball savvy. Rewatching the 93 finals, the way he could dismantle the defense is just ridiculous. Sometimes it was a pretty bad defense, but MJ was guarded by Dan Majerle most of the time, a very good man defender. I'd say 1992 and 1993 are equal, as are 1990 and 1991. There's a pretty visible difference between 91 and 92, at least to me, though. I admit I came to this conclusion by comparing his PER and WS/48, so that may be a little bogus.

[ceiling raiser]

This is a longshot, but do you recall an interview from the 91 playoffs (forget which round) with Magic, in which he states that he was contemplating retirement after the postseason that year?

This question isn't being asked to me so pardon for that, but that's very interesting. I find it hard to believe that MJ, with all his competitive desire, would've been content with just one championship. I have no reason not to believe you though.

Ginobili, ShaqAttack - I agree that MJ already regressed a bit athletically by 93, but he compensated that with his shooting and basketball savvy. Rewatching the 93 finals, the way he could dismantle the defense is just ridiculous. Sometimes it was a pretty bad defense, but MJ was guarded by Dan Majerle most of the time, a very good man defender. I'd say 1992 and 1993 are equal, as are 1990 and 1991. There's a pretty visible difference between 91 and 92, at least to me, though. I admit I came to this conclusion by comparing his PER and WS/48, so that may be a little bogus.

Oops, apologies if I was unclear. Magic interviewed with some of the NBA on NBC guys, MJ wasn't part of that particular conversation.

[Dipper 13]

Oops, apologies if I was unclear. Magic interviewed with some of the NBA on NBC guys, MJ wasn't part of that particular conversation.

Lodi News-Sentinel - Feb 4, 1991

[Shot Clock]

I don't know which version is the best, but none of those versions are perfect or ultimate. 89-90 Jordan had a chance to show how much impact he really had or overcome(when Phil was a rookie and before Pippen broke out and become a star, i.e 20+ PER), and he couldn't even beat a Piston team with no one with a PER over 18).

Yes, shame on Jordan for not winning that game 7 even though the rest of the team carried him offensively with a 15 for 63 showing.....

The thing about Jordan is that when he had the best team, his competition was weak, and when he had a weak team, his competition was strong, so you can never tell how much impact he had compared to his contemporaries. If you had reversed his supporting cast from the 90's to the 80's, then I think we'd get a much better idea. My guess is he'd win no more than 1 or 2 championships(slightly inferior in the 80's, vastly inferior in the 90's. I think his best shot would be in the 80s. Can't really see them beating the Knicks and Magic, and then the WCF opponent in the 90's, with that 80's cast).

You try way to hard.

[Shot Clock]

Really it's too close to call. It wasn't like he was massively better any year. He was at the point where he could do whatever he wanted. They say Magic is better because he distributes, well take on that role during the Finals. Drexler is a better shooter? Go set a Finals record for 3's. he could basically do whatever he wanted.

[aol4532]

Yes, shame on Jordan for not winning that game 7 even though the rest of the team carried him offensively with a 15 for 63 showing.....

Blaming others against a team who appears to be a weaker version of the Blazers is not the sign of a GOAT-player. It's like people blaming Shaq's teammates for not performing. What people fail to realize is that Shaq clogs the paint, which makes it harder for his teammates to drive. With Jordan, it's possible that he took too many shots and took his teammates out of rhythm.

If Jordan is so good offensively, then why couldn't he at least get his teammates some easy baskets, ala Magic(since his defense is obviously overrated, yeah, I know about his defense in the clutch, but I'd like to see who he was guarding. If it was just a bunch of role players, then that's as impressive as Duncan "shutting down" Horry. Holding Clyde when he must have had help from Pippen(important on switches or as secondary defender) to 40.7% is not even that impressive, not nearly as good as Hakeem holding Ewing, a 50% shooter to 36%, by himself basically.)

The thing about Jordan is that when he had the best team, his competition was weak, and when he had a weak team, his competition was strong, so you can never tell how much impact he had compared to his contemporaries. If you had reversed his supporting cast from the 90's to the 80's, then I think we'd get a much better idea. My guess is he'd win no more than 1 or 2 championships(slightly inferior in the 80's, vastly inferior in the 90's. I think his best shot would be in the 80s. Can't really see them beating the Knicks and Magic, and then the WCF opponent in the 90's, with that 80's cast).

You try way to hard.

Too much logic got your tongue?

[ceiling raiser]

Bit of a bump. Any new thoughts? Is 92 a reasonable pick for MJ's peak? Why/why not?

OT - This is a longshot, but do you recall an interview from the 91 playoffs (forget which round) with Magic, in which he states that he was contemplating retirement after the postseason that year?

I never did find the interview, but did find an article mentioning it:

More Bad News: Magic Is Talking about Retiring (LA Times 6/12/91)

Aside from injuries to James Worthy and Byron Scott, Magic Johnson resting the last two days and Coach Mike Dunleavy practicing so they could have 10 men, the Lakers look marvelous.

Also, Johnson mentioned Tuesday that he could retire this summer.

"If he retires," said Dunleavy, who thought he already had problems, "I'm going with him."

Such is the careworn state of the Lakers, down 3-1 to Chicago in the NBA finals, playing for their basketball lives tonight in Game 5.

Johnson has been smiling through his tears since Sunday's one-sided victory by the Bulls.

Perhaps tipping off his pain and the toll exacted by 79 regular-season games, 18 playoff games in which he has averaged 43 minutes and a week of being dogged by the Michael Jordan-Scottie Pippen greyhound team, Johnson began talking retirement Tuesday.

"I'm not going to play but one or two more years, depending on how I feel," he said.

"I'll evaluate myself after this season and every season from here on out. And if I want to leave in a year, then I'll leave in a year. And if I want to leave the year after that, then I'll leave then. If I'm tired this summer, then I'll leave this summer."

That gagging sound in Bel-Air was emanating from Jerry Buss.

This summer?

"It's definitely a possibility," Johnson said. "I'm taking three weeks and deciding what I want to do. If I feel like I don't want to return, I'll leave."

Any hunches?

"Well, we'll get into that later," he said, laughing.

What would make him go?

"Just the feeling that it's time to go. That it's time to be doing something else. I've always wanted to be a businessman. I've set myself up. I don't have to work a day in my life. I own a business in D.C. (a soft-drink distributorship in Washington) that will last forever. My son will have it and his son and on through."

Could he be in a late-season funk?

"There's definitely a depression, frustration, everything. . . . What you do now is be depressed and upset and that whole thing. But you say, `Well, do I want to come back again?' More than the game, itself, it's just you, yourself."

Within minutes, however, Johnson was saying he didn't feel that this was his last finals.

"We've got some good people," Johnson said. "Really good people. I feel we'll be back, and Jerry West is great at making the additions we need. There's always unrestricted free agents. There's always pieces that you can add. Sam (Perkins) has proven himself. Vlade (Divac) has come of age.

"I'm not giving up that easy."

In other words, ask him again in July.

Though he retracted it two days later:

Like Magic, Lakers Plan on Returning; Finals Loss Doesn't Change Team's Outlook (Washington Post 6/14/91)

Let's get the silliness out of the way. Magic Johnson is not retiring. Therefore, the Los Angeles Lakers likely may be back in the NBA Finals next year and in years to come.

Los Angeles' 4-1 series loss to the Chicago Bulls was disheartening to the Lakers only when they had to compare their performance with the Bulls'. Otherwise, the Lakers accomplished much in a season that was supposed to mark the true beginning of the end of their championship runs.

They thundered to the finals with impressive series wins over Houston, Golden State and Portland, belying their age and the youth of their opponents. But for the second straight time in the finals, they were derailed by injuries and hunted down by a hungry opponent.

James Worthy never really recovered from the sprained ankle suffered in the Portland series. Johnson's tendinitis flared up, and Byron Scott couldn't recover from a sore right shoulder - which he said was a torn rotator cuff.

Injuries heal. Johnson's departure would mean long-term distress. But he took care of that after Game 5 Wednesday.

"I'm sure I'll be back," said Johnson, who indicated that he would evaluate his future after the finals, as he does every season, and his statement somehow was transformed into a declaration of retirement.

"Any time you've had a hard, tough season like this, you want to get back and try to come back and be on the other side of it. This wasn't meant to be for us. Chicago all year had a great year and a great season, and they just did it in the championship series as well."

"I expect Earvin to be here until I leave," Scott said. "I understood what he was saying. I think most of it was out of frustration because of the way the series has run.

"He's kept it pretty quiet, but he's hurting also. His Achilles' was bothering him every day."

If they can resist the temptation to trade players for a chance to get an early first-round pick in the June 26 draft, the Lakers still seem set for future championships runs. They have Johnson, still at the height of his creative powers at 32. They have an emerging star in center Vlade Divac, who averaged 18.2 points, 8.8 rebounds, 2.4 blocks and shot 57 percent in the championship series. And then there's the deadly forward duo of Worthy, who this season had his highest scoring average and was rewarded today with a contract extension (probably through the 1995-96 season), and Sam Perkins, who blossomed in his first year here.

Scott suffered through a horrid finals, making only five of 18 shots (28 percent) and averaging 4.5 points. But he was 92 for 168 (55 percent) in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

And the marriage of low-post play, fast breaks and defense by Coach Mike Dunleavy could add years to some aging legs.

"There was a big learning curve here," Dunleavy said. "I've played against a lot of them but I didn't know individually what they can and can't do. So there was that process there. Then there was the process of learning the Western Conference. I had been a coach in the East and I played in the East."

Los Angeles also got a look at part of its future Wednesday with the performances of rookies Elden Campbell and Tony Smith. Totaling 57 minutes because of the injuries to Worthy and Scott, Campbell and Smith combined for 33 points.

"I've felt good about Elden and Tony all year long," Dunleavy said. "Elden started off very slowly because it was difficult for him to play the positions, but as the year went on he became more intelligent as far as what we're trying to do."

It's more likely that Campbell, a forward from Clemson, will make an impact sooner than Smith, who will back up Johnson next season even if veteran guard Larry Drew plays elsewhere.

"I suppose you could say" he is part of the Lakers' future, Smith said. "We don't really know what's going to happen, but if it is I think we're going to be all right down the road. We played during the year, and that helps . . . {but} I would have traded this game for a ring."

Campbell, whose talent was never in dispute, lasted until the 27th pick of the first round last year because teams were scared off by his inconsistent play at Clemson. But with Johnson yelling in one ear and Dunleavy in the other, Campbell came on at the end of the season.

Drew and veteran center Mychal Thompson don't seem likely to be part of the Lakers' future, but top-flight newcomers may be hard to find. The Lakers have the 52nd pick in the draft - their first-round pick went to Golden State for Terry Teagle - and they may not even have that. Miami has the option of taking either the Lakers' second-round choice this year or next year as part of long-ago compensation for not selecting Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the expansion draft four years ago.

But General Manager Jerry West has a history of contriving ways to get more talent. If he wants to trade into the first round, there are players who could be traded to get him there.

The biggest part of the team, Johnson, will still be around.

"If I wasn't hungry, we wouldn't be sitting here right now," he said. "Portland would be. That's why I play. I'm always hungry. Everybody's hungry. That's why we play, because we all want to win a championship."

I think it was mentioned during the game 5 broadcast...

[LakerLegend]

Jordan thinks it's 96, then 92(I know he says 5th championship and 95, but he's said 96 before and put two and two together)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8CO5y-Xl1A

[Quotatious]

Jordan thinks it's 96, then 92(I know he says 5th championship and 95, but he's said 96 before and put two and two together)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8CO5y-Xl1A

I think his team's record skews his perception of his own game. They won 67 games in '92, and 72 in '96, compared to "just" 61 in '91, to say nothing about his pre-championship seasons. Ask Jerry West about his best season, and he'll probably say 1972, because the Lakers won 69 RS games and a championship, even though they won the title more in spite of him, than because of him (I mean, Frazier REALLY outplayed him in the finals). Winning bias is very real, especially among players (even more so than it is on this board).

Personally, I think that MJ was at his best between 1988 and 1991. He was clearly worse before and after that. 1991 Jordan was basically THE perfect basketball player (he could've shot better from beyond the arc, but he clearly improved in this regard in the playoffs - shot 38.5% on 1.5 attempts, compared to 31.2% on 1.1 attempts in the RS). Perfect blend of athleticism, skill and intelligence (on the top of that, he played better in the postseason than he did in RS).

I don't think '92 has a case. His advanced numbers went down across the board (PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP all much lower than they were between '88 and '91).

[spectacularmove]

Ive been watching a lot of entire games on youtube (Alex Groz channell, check it out) from that era, and honestly im amazed at how good Michael was during those 3 years (one thing Ive noticed though is he clearly lost a step in the 93 season), the dude was impossible to guard.
From an athletic standpoint 90 was his best year, he was flying on the court, but his game and his understanding of the triangle weren't as polished as they were in 91.
92 its a strange year, I think it could have been his best year but IMO there was a little satisfaction there thus losing some of the edge and focus he had the previous years.
91 is simply the perfect year.

[timglick01]

Weren't his numbers from 91 down from his previous seasons?

[Quotatious]

Weren't his numbers from 91 down from his previous seasons?

No. He averaged a career low (not counting 18 games in the '85-'86 season, and '02 season with the Wizards) 37.0 mpg. He was as productive as ever during the '90-'91 season - he had the second highest PER of his career, at 31.6 - just slightly behind '87-'88, when he had 31.7.

Also, he clearly had his best postseason in '91, from numbers standpoint or otherwise.

[MrKnox]

This is a longshot, but do you recall an interview from the 91 playoffs (forget which round) with Magic, in which he states that he was contemplating retirement after the postseason that year?

This question isn't being asked to me so pardon for that, but that's very interesting. I find it hard to believe that MJ, with all his competitive desire, would've been content with just one championship. I have no reason not to believe you though.

Ginobili, ShaqAttack - I agree that MJ already regressed a bit athletically by 93, but he compensated that with his shooting and basketball savvy. Rewatching the 93 finals, the way he could dismantle the defense is just ridiculous. Sometimes it was a pretty bad defense, but MJ was guarded by Dan Majerle most of the time, a very good man defender. I'd say 1992 and 1993 are equal, as are 1990 and 1991. There's a pretty visible difference between 91 and 92, at least to me, though. I admit I came to this conclusion by comparing his PER and WS/48, so that may be a little bogus.

Oops, apologies if I was unclear. Magic interviewed with some of the NBA on NBC guys, MJ wasn't part of that particular conversation.

If I remember correctly, Magic mentioned retirement as the Bulls were kicking their butts as a way to steal some of Jordans thunder. I recorded all the games live on VHS but haven't viewed them in years. I'll need to go back and check but I'm pretty sure it was just a ruse on Magic's part to steal some attention away from the inevitable coronation of Jordan and the Bulls.

[MrKnox]

The best Jordan I ever saw was 1991. The way he played team ball and looked to distribute all the while dominating offensively as usual. However, my favorite version of Jordan was 1993. At 30 years of age it was the perfect cross section of athleticism, skill and the mentality of knowing how to win. He had the swagger of a player who KNEW he was going to win and just crushed the Suns in the Finals.