Larry Bird vs Lebron James - Greatest SF of all Time

[SideshowBob]

-Off-ball play. This is most active I've ever seen him off the ball, he's screening all over, very actively cutting, setting up on the block, curling to the basket, catch/shoot off screens, etc. etc. I'm seeing defenses frequently in scrambles from his movement.

Spo is calling a lot of plays where LeBron gets a screen on the weak side and curls into the paint and receives a pass from the wing. Those are very effective, especially when Bosh is screening for him. I wanna see Oden involved in those too.

-Post play. He now looks dynamic down-low. He's excellent at getting good positioning off the ball and can't be fronted at all (almost always leads to a basket). More polished when creating for himself (baseline fade-away is no longer go-to move), comfortable using counters, improved footwork.

This is also because of Bosh. I noted this before in the LeBron thread I think. Whenever he gets fronted and Bosh is up top, it's almost always an alley oop finish for LeBron, mostly due to Bosh's IQ and passing skills. Contrast this with the way Melo was fronted by Battier 2 years ago in the playoffs and New York couldn't do anything about it. Miami's offensive IQ is miles ahead of most.

On the other hand, with Wade out frequently, I hate how much Allen's got to control the ball this season. We used to cringe in Boston anytime that happened and the ball was taken out of Rondo or Paul's hands. Almost always led to a boneheaded or low-percentage play. His timing on the pick and roll as the handler is just completely off.

[longball]

lebron plays in an era where the league purposefully geared the game towards the offensive side of the ball.

so of course his offensive numbers (PER and the like) will be superior to bird's.

but bird was an equal passer that generated his assists holding the ball a fraction of the time lebron needs to generate his assists... bird's a better rebounder... bird's a better clutch scorer... bird's tougher.

for these reasons, i think it depends on the era... if we played in this era, lebron has a chance... in a previous era, forget it... he's toast.. it's pre-2012 all over again.

[wigglestrue]

Larrys def the better offensive player. Lebrons better overall since he can be an anchor for ur D. I have Larry ahead but Lebron will prolly be there in 2yrs. It took Lebron until his 3rd yr to reach the level of rookie Larry. I have 10 and 13 Lebron ahead of peak Larry

how is bird the better offensive player, let alone 'definitely'?

Bird is the best passer, best shooter, better rebounder, bigger hustler, better decision maker, better teammate, quicker thinker, clutcher mentally, more consistent fundamentally, but also more creative. LeBron is the better dunker, jumper, dribbler, finisher, runner. LeBron is also a better defender, but the gap is not as monumental as some might portray it, as Bird was a very good team defender, on some very good team defenses, and came up with some great defensive plays in big moments. Quantitatively, even the most diehard Celtics and Bird fan will wind up having to concede LeBron precedence on the career greatness leaderboard. If everything is stats, averages, awards. Fine, let's stipulate LeBron as already there. But, qualitatively? Bird was and is and will be better. Regardless, it's a GOAT Top Seven now, as I see it, in some order: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Michael, LeBron.

[Fencer reregistered]

I think Cleveland Lebron was a choker, a poor decision maker, and a guy who led his teammates in having not-ideal attitudes. I.e., I don't think he was accurately described as a transcendental player burdened with lousy coaching and a poor supporting cast.

So I don't have Lebron having matched Bird in longevity of GOAT-contention yet.

But I agree that Lebron is on track to pass Bird, as it seems likely that he'll wind up having had the much longer career, and he's currently living up to the potential he always had as a high-IQ player.

[longball]

i was just listening to max and marcellus (first hour on 1/22 around 38:20) and max said something quite astute - he said that players today like lebron and durant have an advantage of playing in today's era where shooting efficiency is better understood... we now know that 3-point shots and layups are at least theoretically the most efficient shots in a vacuum from an efg% standpoint (even if the pursuit of specifically the 3-pt shot slows the pace and reduces points per possession or Ortg).

so guys like durant and lebron will have greater shooting efficiency than guys like magic and bird largely because strategy today is based on players achieving maximum individual shooting efficiency as coaches draw up plays for 3's and at-rim shots... of course, as previously mentioned, the pursuit of these shots slows the pace and reduces overall offensive efficiency or points per possession (essentially, it reduces scoring), but for the individual player, their shooting percentages or TS% will look better than that of previous eras... that is why bird and magic's TS% pales in comparison to lebron and durant - as another poster mentioned, the strategy and rules of today's game indeed dictate a higher efg% and TS%, however, they also dictate a LOWER offensive rating or points per possession... so today's rules mean better shooting percentages but less scoring (points per possession or Ortg) and less possessions overall (pace).

if you put bird and magic in today's game where offensive spacing and strategy centers around these higher efg% shots (layups and 3's), and their TS% will compare to that of lebron or durant.

max also mentioned how in the history of the game, only jordan's TS%'s compare to durant and lebron's (of course mj's TS% is superior to both in the playoffs)... but that's just because jordan was jordan... he was simply good enough to still have comparable TS%'s despite everything in the game at that time being against players having such shooting percentages.

[Styrian]

i was just listening to max and marcellus (first hour on 1/22 around 38:20) and max actually said something quite astute - he said that players today like lebron and durant have an advantage of playing in today's era where shooting efficiency is better understood... we now know that 3-point shots and layups are at least theoretically the most efficient shots in a vacuum from an efg% standpoint (even if the pursuit of specifically the 3-pt shot slows the pace and reduces points per possession or Ortg).

so guys like durant and lebron will have greater shooting efficiency than guys like magic and bird largely because strategy today is based on players achieving maximum individual shooting efficiency as coaches draw up plays for 3's and at-rim shots... of course, as previously mentioned, the pursuit of these shots slows the pace and reduces overall offensive efficiency or points per possession (essentially, it reduces scoring), but for the individual player, their shooting percentages or TS% will look better than that of previous eras... that is why bird and magic's TS% pales in comparison to lebron and durant - as another poster mentioned, the strategy and rules of today's game indeed dictate a higher efg% and TS%, however, they also dictate a LOWER offensive rating or points per possession... so today's rules mean better shooting percentages but less scoring (points per possession or Ortg) and less possessions overall (pace).

if you put bird and magic in today's game where offensive spacing and strategy centers around these higher efg% shots (layups and 3's), and their TS% will compare to that of lebron or durant.

max also mentioned how in the history of the game, only jordan's TS%'s compare to durant and lebron's (of course mj's TS% is superior to both in the playoffs)... but that's just because jordan was jordan... he was simply good enough to still have comparable TS%'s despite everything in the game at that time being against players having such shooting percentages.

Todays rules doesn't put NBA teams on pace to break 3pt% and 3pt makes all-time record this season, shooting has evolved and players are better at jumpshooting than they ever were before. It's hard to say teams should take more threes in 80's when they shot in high 20's and low 30's from 3pt. They would take more threes today and that would help Bird in a vacuum. League average TS% this season despite 3pt shooting is 53.5, in 1984-85 when Bird averaged 28.7 ppg on 58.5 TS% it was 54.3, in 1987-88 when Bird averaged 29.9 ppg on 60.8 TS% it was 53.8. Still not comparable to Durant's 31 ppg on 64 TS% or Lebron's 26 ppg on 66 TS% when league average TS% is 53.5(and league average offensive rating is 105.6 compared to 108.0 in 1987-88, mainly because of much higher FTA).

Neither Magic and Bird had usage of Lebron and Durant, they didn't take such high amount of teams FGA's and higher usage/more shot attempts in general results in lower efficiency. Kobe and Melo are playing in the same era too and had high 3pt volume and good 3pt%, but were still only at above league average efficiency so I don't agree with assumption Magic and Bird would be more efficient today, it's got more to do with Durant and Lebron being top 5 scorers ever than era they are playing in.

[longball]

i was just listening to max and marcellus (first hour on 1/22 around 38:20) and max said something quite astute - he said that players today like lebron and durant have an advantage of playing in today's era where shooting efficiency is better understood... we now know that 3-point shots and layups are at least theoretically the most efficient shots in a vacuum from an efg% standpoint (even if the pursuit of specifically the 3-pt shot slows the pace and reduces points per possession or Ortg).

so guys like durant and lebron will have greater shooting efficiency than guys like magic and bird largely because strategy today is based on players achieving maximum individual shooting efficiency as coaches draw up plays for 3's and at-rim shots... of course, as previously mentioned, the pursuit of these shots slows the pace and reduces overall offensive efficiency or points per possession (essentially, it reduces scoring), but for the individual player, their shooting percentages or TS% will look better than that of previous eras... that is why bird and magic's TS% pales in comparison to lebron and durant - as another poster mentioned, the strategy and rules of today's game indeed dictate a higher efg% and TS%, however, they also dictate a LOWER offensive rating or points per possession... so today's rules mean better shooting percentages but less scoring (points per possession or Ortg) and less possessions overall (pace).

if you put bird and magic in today's game where offensive spacing and strategy centers around these higher efg% shots (layups and 3's), and their TS% will compare to that of lebron or durant.

max also mentioned how in the history of the game, only jordan's TS%'s compare to durant and lebron's (of course mj's TS% is superior to both in the playoffs)... but that's just because jordan was jordan... he was simply good enough to still have comparable TS%'s despite everything in the game at that time being against players having such shooting percentages.

Todays rules doesn't put NBA teams on pace to break 3pt% and 3pt makes all-time record this season, shooting has evolved and players are better at jumpshooting than they ever were before. It's hard to say teams should take more threes in 80's when they shot in high 20's and low 30's from 3pt. They would take more threes today and that would help Bird in a vacuum. League average TS% this season despite 3pt shooting is 53.5, in 1984-85 when Bird averaged 28.7 ppg on 58.5 TS% it was 54.3, in 1987-88 when Bird averaged 29.9 ppg on 60.8 TS% it was 53.8. Still not comparable to Durant's 31 ppg on 64 TS% or Lebron's 26 ppg on 66 TS% when league average TS% is 53.5(and league average offensive rating is 105.6 compared to 108.0 in 1987-88, mainly because of much higher FTA).

Neither Magic and Bird had usage of Lebron and Durant, they didn't take such high amount of teams FGA's and higher usage/more shot attempts in general results in lower efficiency. Kobe and Melo are playing in the same era too and had high 3pt volume and good 3pt%, but were still only at above league average efficiency so I don't agree with assumption Magic and Bird would be more efficient today, it's got more to do with Durant and Lebron being top 5 scorers ever than era they are playing in.

league wide efg is higher now than in the 80's and 90's due to the shift in strategy away from the mid-range game and more towards 3-pt shots and at-rim shots.

back in the day, you didn't have players focusing on at-rim looks and 3-pointers like you do today... this hurt their shooting percentages and TS%.

but if larry and magic were to play today, their games would incorporate all of today's offensive strategy that fits the new rules and their shot allocation would shift from the lower efg mid-range two's they were taking, to higher efg at-rim looks and 3-pointers that today's strategy centers around... accordingly, their TS% would increase with this shift in shot allocation.

however, as previously mentioned, even though today's game shoots better effective percentages due to the aforementioned new shot allocation, the new shot allocation results in a slower pace, less scoring, less 1-on-1, and less unique skill from player to player (the lower skill levels being what kobe referenced)... this results in a diluted game where in addition to the lower scoring and slower pace, the 2-5 positions have become more like the unskilled positions that they have in football (i.e. 3-and-D wings and D-and-dunk bigs), as opposed to the wildly unique skill that was different from player to player that you saw in previous eras.

[JLei]

I have Lebron ahead offensively for 14 only.

Have Larry ahead overall, Lebron should match him by the end of this season.

Thats interesting what do u see differently from him compared to last season? He seems the same on that end to me but worse defensively tho that could be b/c hes not really putting in the effort

On offense, I see several improvements from 2013:

-Off-ball play. This is most active I've ever seen him off the ball, he's screening all over, very actively cutting, setting up on the block, curling to the basket, catch/shoot off screens, etc. etc. I'm seeing defenses frequently in scrambles from his movement.

-Post play. He now looks dynamic down-low. He's excellent at getting good positioning off the ball and can't be fronted at all (almost always leads to a basket). More polished when creating for himself (baseline fade-away is no longer go-to move), comfortable using counters, improved footwork.

-Slashing game. I think he looks better in terms of quickness/explosion than any Miami year (though not stamina/durability). The slashing game has become his bread and butter again. He's gotten comfortable looking to attack the basket off the dribble first and foremost again. Note that all three of these points help increase the pressure he puts on the middle.

On the other hand, his jumper has clearly regressed. Its been inconsistent; in the first few months, he was blazing from down town but was struggling from mid-range. Now its been flip-flopped; he's been great setting up from inside the arc, but is struggling to make those outside shots, even spotting up. That makes his ability to space the floor a bit wonky, but he's been making up for it in other areas. If he puts them together, this is clearly his best offensive season to me.

Dunno about defense yet. He seems clearly weaker, I agree, which is weird because he looks great physically. If he demonstrates the ability to turn it on a bit in the 2nd half or in the postseason, I might rate it around 09/10 (+2-2.5), but have it below those for now, and definitely below 12/13.

I disagree about the slashing game from 14 vs. 13. I watched the whole season and rewatched those Lebron James offensive highlight videos (5 parts) and he was absolutely massacring people off the dribble and pick and roll last year and with his improved jumper just fired when given space (which was why it was so shocking to see him go away from it in the finals until Game 4). This year he's been as good or just below but I think 13 Lebron attacked the basket better. You don't shoot 59% over a 40 game stretch without getting inside and he clearly wasn't as good of a post player/ moving without the ball as he is now.

[MacGill]

Id say its still bird for now, i expect that to change soon thogh especially if he wins another ring this year.

Exactly, how does winning a ring make him an actual better basketball player ability wise?

[Mr MoJo Risin]

I have to go with Larry Legend. Higher IQ, much tougher and nasty. Very hard to get into Mr Bird's head. Very clutch down the stretch of games.

[MoneyMo]

Easily LeBron James, Just flat out superior.

[RSCD3_]

Thats interesting what do u see differently from him compared to last season? He seems the same on that end to me but worse defensively tho that could be b/c hes not really putting in the effort

On offense, I see several improvements from 2013:

-Off-ball play. This is most active I've ever seen him off the ball, he's screening all over, very actively cutting, setting up on the block, curling to the basket, catch/shoot off screens, etc. etc. I'm seeing defenses frequently in scrambles from his movement.

-Post play. He now looks dynamic down-low. He's excellent at getting good positioning off the ball and can't be fronted at all (almost always leads to a basket). More polished when creating for himself (baseline fade-away is no longer go-to move), comfortable using counters, improved footwork.

-Slashing game. I think he looks better in terms of quickness/explosion than any Miami year (though not stamina/durability). The slashing game has become his bread and butter again. He's gotten comfortable looking to attack the basket off the dribble first and foremost again. Note that all three of these points help increase the pressure he puts on the middle.

On the other hand, his jumper has clearly regressed. Its been inconsistent; in the first few months, he was blazing from down town but was struggling from mid-range. Now its been flip-flopped; he's been great setting up from inside the arc, but is struggling to make those outside shots, even spotting up. That makes his ability to space the floor a bit wonky, but he's been making up for it in other areas. If he puts them together, this is clearly his best offensive season to me.

Dunno about defense yet. He seems clearly weaker, I agree, which is weird because he looks great physically. If he demonstrates the ability to turn it on a bit in the 2nd half or in the postseason, I might rate it around 09/10 (+2-2.5), but have it below those for now, and definitely below 12/13.

I disagree about the slashing game from 14 vs. 13. I watched the whole season and rewatched those Lebron James offensive highlight videos (5 parts) and he was absolutely massacring people off the dribble and pick and roll last year and with his improved jumper just fired when given space (which was why it was so shocking to see him go away from it in the finals until Game 4). This year he's been as good or just below but I think 13 Lebron attacked the basket better. You don't shoot 59% over a 40 game stretch without getting inside and he clearly wasn't as good of a post player/ moving without the ball as he is now.

He looks faster this year and when his jumper was on early his attacking looked amazing

Sent from my SCH-I800 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[rrravenred]

FWIW, ORtg from different eras:

1985/6: 107.2
2013/14: 105.6

So per-possession there's not a really massive difference in what offenses put up from then to now.

Now there's no argument that the game has changed drastically several times since then, in a reactive manner to emergent game trends (Rugbyball in the early 90s, then the grindy late 90s / early-00s game). Dangerous (IMO) to generalise about how things are obviously easier / harder nowadays.

[longball]

FWIW, ORtg from different eras:

1985/6: 107.2
2013/14: 105.6

So per-possession there's not a really massive difference in what offenses put up from then to now.

(But) Dangerous to generalise about how things are obviously easier / harder nowadays.

not really.... not when virtually anyone who is really anyone says the game changed with the rules in 2004-2005 season to make it easier for the offense.... i'm talking guys like david stern, stu jackson, numerous other nba officials have flat-out said many times as common knowledge that the rules were designed to make it easier on the offense... and a shoal of former players have alluded to the same thing... guys like gary payton, kobe, oscar robertson, tmac, matt barnes, phil jackson, the list goes on and on.

on nba.com's webpage that lists all the rule changes, it says the following regarding the changes instituted before the 2004-2005 season:

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."

then there is this is from grantland's article on three-pointers... http://grantland.com/features/the-relia ... rting-nba/

"We’re still in a place where the huge majority of 3-pointers are the product of the kind of fun ball movement the league sought to unleash by banning the handcheck, scrapping the old illegal-defense rule, and replacing it with the defensive three-seconds rule in the early 2000s. Those tweaks combined to give ball handlers more freedom of movement on the perimeter, and to declutter the lane of both interior defenders and post-up players".

... wow, so i'm not alone in this thinking.. this stuff is actually quite factual and common knowledge, but a lot of fans simply don't understand the game well enough to think past anything they are currently seeing.

[Clyde Frazier]

Larrys def the better offensive player. Lebrons better overall since he can be an anchor for ur D. I have Larry ahead but Lebron will prolly be there in 2yrs. It took Lebron until his 3rd yr to reach the level of rookie Larry. I have 10 and 13 Lebron ahead of peak Larry

Well, Larry was 23 for most of his rookie campaign with 3 years of College under his belt, while Lebron was 18 as a rookie.

LeBron's second year in the NBA he was putting up 27/7/7, arguable better than anything Larry Bird did in any of his first 5 seasons.

I think LeBron is already a tier ahead of Larry Bird.

A tier ahead? If we agree LeBron is better than Bird, they're clearly in the same tier. The top 2 SFs of all time, and bird has cemented himself as a top 10 player all time regardless of who comes along next.

[Laimbeer]

... bird has cemented himself as a top 10 player all time regardless of who comes along next.

And you know this how?

[rrravenred]

FWIW, ORtg from different eras:

1985/6: 107.2
2013/14: 105.6

So per-possession there's not a really massive difference in what offenses put up from then to now.

(But) Dangerous to generalise about how things are obviously easier / harder nowadays.

not really.... not when virtually anyone who is really anyone says the game changed with the rules in 2004-2005 season to make it easier for the offense.... i'm talking guys like david stern, stu jackson, numerous other nba officials have flat-out said many times as common knowledge that the rules were designed to make it easier on the offense... and a shoal of former players have alluded to the same thing... guys like gary payton, kobe, oscar robertson, tmac, matt barnes, phil jackson, the list goes on and on.

on nba.com's webpage that lists all the rule changes, it says the following regarding the changes instituted before the 2004-2005 season:

"New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game."

then there is this is from grantland's article on three-pointers... http://grantland.com/features/the-relia ... rting-nba/

"We’re still in a place where the huge majority of 3-pointers are the product of the kind of fun ball movement the league sought to unleash by banning the handcheck, scrapping the old illegal-defense rule, and replacing it with the defensive three-seconds rule in the early 2000s. Those tweaks combined to give ball handlers more freedom of movement on the perimeter, and to declutter the lane of both interior defenders and post-up players".

... wow, so i'm not alone in this thinking.. this stuff is actually quite factual and common knowledge, but a lot of fans simply don't understand the game well enough to think past anything they are currently seeing.

Well, as I said... context!

What you're not acknowledging is that scoring was at a serious low in the period before these rule changes came in.

1999: 91.6 ppg (.437 FG%) 88.9 pace
2000: 97.4 ppg (.445 FG%) 93.1 pace
2001: 94.8 ppg (.442 FG%) 91.3 pace
2002: 95.5 ppg (.445 FG%) 90.7 pace
2003: 95.1 ppg (.442 FG%) 91.0 pace
2004: 93.4 ppg (.438 FG%) 90.1 pace

Compare this to the Bird era:

1981:108.1 ppg (0.486 FG%) 101.8 pace
1982:108.59 ppg (0.491 FG%) 100.9 pace
1983:108.51 ppg (0.485 FG%) 103.1 pace
1984:110.12 ppg (0.492 FG%) 101.4 pace
1985:110.84 ppg (0.491 FG%) 102.1 pace
1986:110.22 ppg (0.487 FG%) 102.1 pace
1987:109.94 ppg (0.48 FG%) 100.8 pace
1988:108.16 ppg (0.48 FG%) 99.6 pace

Big difference in raw scoring and FG%.

Now I enjoy watching a good defense as much as the next fan, but I think as a spectacle, you can see why the NBA decided they might want to take action.

[rrravenred]

... bird has cemented himself as a top 10 player all time regardless of who comes along next.

And you know this how?

And I'm sure by the mid-50s they were certain that Mikan would stand as the GOAT for all time...

[JordansBulls]

And you know this how?

And I'm sure by the mid-50s they were certain that Mikan would stand as the GOAT for all time...

Not when the sport professionaly had just started up.

[Colbinii]

Larrys def the better offensive player. Lebrons better overall since he can be an anchor for ur D. I have Larry ahead but Lebron will prolly be there in 2yrs. It took Lebron until his 3rd yr to reach the level of rookie Larry. I have 10 and 13 Lebron ahead of peak Larry

Well, Larry was 23 for most of his rookie campaign with 3 years of College under his belt, while Lebron was 18 as a rookie.

LeBron's second year in the NBA he was putting up 27/7/7, arguable better than anything Larry Bird did in any of his first 5 seasons.

I think LeBron is already a tier ahead of Larry Bird.

A tier ahead? If we agree LeBron is better than Bird, they're clearly in the same tier. The top 2 SFs of all time, and bird has cemented himself as a top 10 player all time regardless of who comes along next.

Just because we agree LeBron is better than Bird doesn't mean they have to be in the same tier.

The more I have looked into Larry Bird's Career, the less impressed I am with him.

Larry Bird will eventually be out of the top 10, although it could take 30-40 years.