ATFL Eastern: (4) CaliBullsFan vs. (5) whitehops

[whitehops]

And I agree with whitehops putting Barkley on Sampson or Schrempf...not so much putting him on Moncrief, who was a legitimately good offensive player imo.

yeah i'm not stoked about it either, but he said he would only put him at small forward for a couple minutes a game so I figured I could live with that.

[CaliBullsFan]

I think Duncan is going to have a tough series. With decent spacing, he would have destroyed Kirilenko imo, AK is just too skinny to deal with him, but he's going to be getting doubled and tripled like crazy because of the lack of spacing.

I am comfortable with double teams, Duncan is an excellent passer who can hit the open man all of which can shoot maybe not 3 point range but Gasol Sampson etc are reliable shooters, and just as dangerous as them shooting is they are excellent passers who have the ability to make plays vs a rotating defense.

And I agree with whitehops putting Barkley on Sampson or Schrempf...not so much putting him on Moncrief, who was a legitimately good offensive player imo.

6'5 Barkley on 7'4 Sampson would get attacked mercilessly.

[whitehops]

6'5 Barkley on 7'4 Sampson would get attacked mercilessly.

that 6'6 barkley out-weighed the 7'4 Sampson by about 20 pounds

[john248]

I think Duncan is going to have a tough series. With decent spacing, he would have destroyed Kirilenko imo, AK is just too skinny to deal with him, but he's going to be getting doubled and tripled like crazy because of the lack of spacing.

I am comfortable with double teams, Duncan is an excellent passer who can hit the open man all of which can shoot maybe not 3 point range but Gasol Sampson etc are reliable shooters, and just as dangerous as them shooting is they are excellent passers who have the ability to make plays vs a rotating defense.

And I agree with whitehops putting Barkley on Sampson or Schrempf...not so much putting him on Moncrief, who was a legitimately good offensive player imo.

6'5 Barkley on 7'4 Sampson would get attacked mercilessly.

wow, dude has a foot on him. lol barkley would be up for that.

[BlzMwt]

Payton is as well equipped to guard Paul as perhaps anyone in history. This puts a major dent in Paul's effectiveness. Paul is at a disadvantage in this matchup because of size as well.

a big part of payton's effectiveness of defense was his strength and physicality over other PG's, he could body them and handcheck them. we're using today's rules where he won't be able to do nearly as much of that on the perimeter. besides, 07-09 paul was pretty darn quick and extremely shifty/crafty. historically paul hasn't had much problem with bigger guards defending him, the player who's guarded him best would probably be rondo who matches his quickness and has exceptional length to boot. paul has got his and more against bigger point guards like kidd and hinrich, and that is back when kidd was still on all-nba defensive teams.

i'm not that worried about payton guarding paul, and it sounds like CBF is going to have moncrief on him most of the time anyways.

i believe that dahntay jones in the denver new orleans series in 08 shut down paul better than anyone i have ever seen, and im a big paul fan, next would be tony allen. It could have been lack of talent that allowed denver to use the entire team but dahntsy jones was long, quick and strong and paul couldnt do much against him if i recall

doesnt hurt that jones was primarily a non factor on offense and only job was to play D

[ronnymac2]

Damn, these are some sweet teams and unorthodox strategies. Gonna be a close one.

C - Gasol(28) Duncan(20)
PF - Duncan(18) Sampson(20) Schrempf(10)
SF - Schrempf(18) Maxwell(26) Moncrief(4)
SG - Moncrief(21) Hornacek(13) Adams (10)
PG - Payton (38) Hornacek(10)

Paul (38)/Cheeks (10)
Barry (20)/Harden (28)
Kirilenko (22)/Lewis (22)/Barry (4)
Barkley (36)/Gasol (6)/Kirilenko (4)/Lewis (2)
Sabonis (24)/Gasol(22)/Horford (4)

The first thing I notice is Marc Gasol vs. Arvydas Sabonis. It's like Sabonis is looking at a younger version of himself. Range, passing, smarts, size (Height and bulk), and defense. Pretty cool matchup there.

The second thing I notice is whitehops using a zone defense. I've always felt that the greatest weakness of a zone is if the offensive team has high-post passing hubs. Well, Gasol, Duncan, Detlef, and Sampson fit the bill. Cali says Payton and Moncrief will work off-ball around the passing big men; so much the better then. Make it a team thing. Low post-oriented Tim Duncan being defended by a young AK-47 is also an odd strategic move (though I know why it was done...Kirilenko's length vs. Barkley's meh defensive rep).

I think when faced with both man-to-man and zone schemes, Tim Duncan is going to have a strong positive influence for his club's offense. He's got Detlef or Marc Gasol dragging the other defensive big out of the paint. Whitehops stated AK-47 guards Timmy when he's at PF and Sabonis guards Timmy when he's a C. I question why Pau Gasol isn't guarding Tim Duncan here. Match the length/quickness of Tim. Sabonis will do a fair job I suppose.

Calibulls does indeed have a flawed offensive team because they have no truly elite offensive creator on the perimeter like a LeBron James/T-Mac/Kobe. I think a zone would work if Calibulls focused his offense around somebody like that and had poor shooting/spacing. But he's focused the offense around passing bigs, the nemesis of the zone.

Plus, Detlef/Horny lineups provide adequate spacing/shooting. Hornacek finishing games and playing 23 minutes is great. Honestly, he should be playing more. Adams is decent, but there's no reason to give him minutes when Hornacek and Moncrief could split those 10 minutes.

Maxwell is playing big minutes and apparently has a featured role in the offense. Yeah, he'll have 1 vs. 1 advantages, but I'm not sure this is the best way to play 5 vs. 5 basketball here given the competition as well as his teammates. His big minutes are out of place.

I don't mind Moncrief off-ball. Squid was a monster off-ball player. Moncrief is an offensive rebounding force, right there with Drexler and Jordan and Wade as the best offensive rebounding star wings in history. Terror in transition and great at pinning players down in the post and scoring over them.

Not sure if I like Payton in this role though. Putting Payton in an off-ball role makes CP3 a threat to really disrupt passing lanes. Paul/Kirilenko/Barkley/Cheeks are amazing at causing turnovers, and with Payton as a meh off-ball threat, with Ralph Sampson being talented but also pretty mistake-prone, and with mediocre 3-point shooting in some lineups, I think Whitehops can create some turnovers. They have a hellish fastbreak with Kirilenko (Could play PF on the break like Lamar Odom), Paul/Cheeks orchestrating, Harden drawing fouls, Lewis spotting up (was amazing at finishing secondary breaks with a 3 in Orlando...See '09 ECF), and of course Sir Charles.

Now to Whitehops in the halfcourt offense. I'm in love with the passing on this end, too. Honestly, this might be the best two passing teams we've seen so far.

Barkley can basically do anything. He can post, offensive rebound, drive, initiate his own offense, or play off Paul. I like that Whitehops stated the team won't try for offensive rebounds except for Charles, who is one of the GOAT offensive rebounders. That's all you need.

I'm of the opinion that in this era of teams strategically not going after offensive rebounds so they can get back in transition (a correct strategy imo), having a great offensive rebounder who doesn't require an offensive system designed to put players in offensive rebounding positions becomes extremely valuable (See Tyson Chandler two years ago, see Andre Drummond two years from now). Sorry for the mild tangent.

Sabonis and Pau are GOAT passing bigs, Paul is brilliant, Barry and Kirilenko and Horford and Cheeks and Harden...Just wow. It's got good spacing, shooting, ball-handling. I think the use of Cheeks/Harden and Paul/Barry is a great strategy. I think the fact that Whitehops took Harden is a great strategy period. I'm personally not a fan of Harden, but I think he fits this role in an all-time league perfectly. He should be efficient.

Can Calibulls slow him enough? Well, the personnel is certainly there. Gasol/Duncan is amazing, and the GOAT defensive backcourt is pretty sick, too. I don't buy that Squid harassing this version of CP3 full court and getting the ball out of his hands will work that well, however. This is the most athletic version of CP3, so bothering CP3, even for Moncrief, will be tough. But let's say Paul passes the ball off. Is this a bad thing?

Whitehops still has plenty of ball-handlers/passers/creators, and CP3 playing off-ball sometimes isn't bad considering he was a good outside shooter. whitehops built his offense to not be reliant on Paul, and it pays dividends against a stout defense like this. CaliBulls might have the GOAT defense in this league after all.

The only thing I worry about is Barkley being able to finish with all that length inside. There will be times when even Charles drives into those trees and has no where to go. Dead end.


I don't know man. These teams seem to have solid strategies to exploit each other or counter each other with. I'm going to need to sleep on this one.

[CaliBullsFan]

Great post. 2 things I would like to respond to

But let's say Paul passes the ball off. Is this a bad thing?

When his backcourt mate is Barry I think its a very bad thing for whitehoops team. Because its going to be an incredible struggle for Barry to initiate the offense vs Payton. Which may force Barkley to be the guy CP3 passes out of pressure to and I think that would kill whitehoops ball movement

Adams is decent, but there's no reason to give him minutes

He's getting minutes because he's really my only "energy guy". His speed and effort can the change the complexion of a game when he's on the floor, he also spreads the floor(lead the NBA in 3pts made back to back seasons)

[Texas Chuck]

This matchup seemed like one of the most one-sided of the first-rounders so I have waited to see if the GM's strategy would change my mind. And it really hasnt.

I just dont like the Chuck/Paul team. Yes those two guys are brilliant offensively but I think this is the worst overall starting lineup in the tournament. Im concerned about the defense. Paul is an overrated defender. Payton is a much better defender. Paul's reputation is built on his elite ballhawking, but he's not a shut-down guy. AK47 is a good defender, but he's more versatile than dominant and he simply can't guard peak Duncan. I cant see a zone working here either. He's fortunate in that there isnt a dominant wing on the other side, but Moncrief was a 20 ppg on 60%TS without any bump from 3-pters. And Cornbread was also super efficient.

Payton is the perfect guy to put on Paul and outside of Chuck no one else worries me offensively at all. Sabonis/Gasol is essentially a wash, AK and Barry means Detlef always has an easy matchup defensively. Id have Harden in from the jump because he is nearly the shooter Barry is, but also brings more to the table with his driving/playmaking ability. I also think Pau needs more minutes especially in a series against Duncan. Chuck is going to get his, but that's more size/strength to deal with on the inside than he's used to seeing. Still he would be the leading scorer in this series and maybe by quite a lot.

I think Cali is in some trouble when Duncan sits because his bench is weak and ill-fitting imo. But ultimately I think his core is simply much stronger and is a nightmare matchup for whitehops team. He has one of the top 2 defenses in this thing and with Payton he has the best answer in the tournament for Paul.

CaliBulls Fan in 5 or 6

[ronnymac2]

Great post. 2 things I would like to respond to

But let's say Paul passes the ball off. Is this a bad thing?

When his backcourt mate is Barry I think its a very bad thing for whitehoops team. Because its going to be an incredible struggle for Barry to initiate the offense vs Payton. Which may force Barkley to be the guy CP3 passes out of pressure to and I think that would kill whitehoops ball movement

Adams is decent, but there's no reason to give him minutes

He's getting minutes because he's really my only "energy guy". His speed and effort can the change the complexion of a game when he's on the floor, he also spreads the floor(lead the NBA in 3pts made back to back seasons)

Just because Barry is his backcourt mate doesn't mean Barry is always necessarily the other ball-handler Paul passes to. Whitehops has a host of competent ball-handlers. I also disagree about Adams vs. Moncrief/Hornacek.

That said...


Vote: CaliBullsFan


Despite CaliBulls having a very strong defense, I think Whitehops does just fine offensively. But on the other side, despite CaliBulls not having a very strong offense in a vacuum, I believe the matchups and strategy presented to me point to CaliBulls' team having a strong offensive series. Strong enough that they pull it out in Game 6. Very close series.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: whitehops

This is one where the writeups mattered for me. In general I don't like "pound it to the inside" strategies very much because I think they are predictable and easy to stop. One way to stop them is zone as mentioned, and even if you didn't do that, it's not so easy just to attack one defender here. The defense chooses who guards who after all.

On top of that, while I love Duncan, I don't know if I'd want to use him as a volume scorer against solid defense, and despite the claims that Barkley is a sieve on defense, it's not that simple. He was spotty in his efforts which can be used here, but it's not like he had a reputation for letting all opposing PFs rack up 40 on him. He was powerful, he was fast, and he has help here, especially if the offense is predictable.

On the other side while no offense is perfect, a Barkley/Paul pair is a great start even relative to a typical all-time league team. I have more faith in it, than I don't the other side's attack.

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: CaliBullsFan
ronnymac2: CaliBullsFan
Doctor MJ: whitehops
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: CaliBullsFan
therealbig3: whitehops

[whitehops]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: CaliBullsFan
ronnymac2: CaliBullsFan
Doctor MJ: whitehops
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck
therealbig3: whitehops

texas chuck voted for CBF as well.

[TMACFORMVP]

**** I’m sorry guys. I’ve been busier than I thought, some stuff came up, and I haven’t even logged into RealGM the last week (which is rare). Why don’t ya’ll do all the matchups at one time?

I think we know the basics of this…Cali’s got the GOAT defense, and an offense that doesn’t have enough spacing. But I thought Cali did a nice job trying to explain away his lack of spacing on offense. It’s true he’s got big men that can create space, and pass from the high post. This should help v. the zone that whitehops said he’d play. I’ve always thought that’s the biggest thing to have on offense. People are all about 3’s/FT’s/layups, and that’s correct, but IMO, you have to be able to generate offense from the mid-post (meaning give it to a guy in the mid-post, have him face up and be able to generate offense from there). That opens up the offense to get those 3’s/FT’s/layups. And then you gotta be able to rebound. And he’s got that. Plus, Schrempf can space it, Horny is nice off the bench, Maxwell gives off the threat (though he wasn’t particularly efficient), and Payton wasn’t completely inept. Maybe the spacing isn’t as bad as it originally seems…though I really disagree with playing Adams any minutes at all. Just play Horny those mins… One thing about the bigs as passing hubs though is it’s great if the guys are great off the ball, and I don’t really like Payton in that role.

Because of that I actually think whitehops has got some decent defensive matchups though, AK in a zone, Gasol has got size, Sabonis was very good defensively too. I also think he can compete on the boards and disagree that Cali is noticeably superior on the boards. Marc isn’t a particularly great rebounder…while Sabonis was very good, Barkley was a beast, and AK was good. They’ll rebound fine. IMO, that doesn’t determine this…

Harden will struggle in this series. He’s noticeably worse when he’s facing perimeter defenders with interior rim protection. It’s because he lacks variety in his game. And I don’t think the perimeter defense is very good on whitehops team, Harden and Barry can be exploited, especially with the use of picks/screens from Duncan or Marc (who is great in this role). And if AK is on Duncan, Barkley will likely be matched up with a player that will stretch the defense or is too quick for him (Moncrief). Sidney couldn’t shoot the 3, but he worked well off the ball, and was a good mid-range shooter. I’ve always thought he’s one of those guys with his form that would shoot the 3 in a more modern game. Obviously that’s subjective though.

I think if you take out Harden….he has some size to throw at Barkley, and Payton’s size/physicalness against CP3. I still think CP3/Barkley is nearly unstoppable on O, but if I were to describe the sort of defense I’d like to play against those guys…a strong team defense like that with the personnel Cali has got is what I’d say.

I really can’t decide. IMO, Cali’s team has enough good passing and has some matchups he can exploit. That with his defense takes it in 7 games….

Vote: CaliBullsFan

[bastillon]

I am sorry I haven't been able to vote but I've been busy and it is what it is. unfortunately I'll be busy now so I'll try to chime in in my free time but my effort can't be as consistent as I'd like it to be.

that being said, CaliBullsFan wins this matchup in 6 games.

I've read this thread and there are certainly lots of valuable points from both sides but to me it really comes down to this: you can't hide Barkley defensively on anybody and he's going to get torched. Doc MJ said he doesn't have a reputation of getting torched... odd statement considering teams always double teamed whoever posted up Barkley, even 10 ppg guys were forcing double teams matched up against Barkley. I don't care what you're trying to do, whether you're zoning, cross-matching or whatever the case may be, I just don't think you can hide Barkley defensively against a duo of Gasol/Duncan. also what hasn't been pointed out is Barkley's relatively weak defensive rebounding. he's had good numbers offensively but his defensive rebounding was to me sub-par, especially from an impact standpoint. I feel that would be an issue against this duo. in the end whitehops built a good team but he ran into a bad matchup. Twin Towers CBF team is a terrible matchup for Barkley to handle.

[SideshowBob]

Vote: whitehops

[penbeast0]

bastillon: CaliBullsFan
TMACFORMVP CaliBullsFan
penbeast0: CaliBullsFan
ronnymac2: CaliBullsFan
Doctor MJ: whitehops
SideshowBob: whitehops
Texas Chuck: CaliBullsFan
therealbig3: whitehops

Looks like CaliBullsFan wins this 5-3