ATFL Western: (4) john248 vs. (5) ThunderDan9

ThunderDan9 · Post #21 » by **ThunderDan9** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 7:06 pm

therealbig3 wrote:So it has to be decided by the bench units. And I just LOVE john248's bench. Derrick Rose is a super underrated pickup. Even in 09 and 10, when he wasn't really one of the better players in the league just yet...being used as a bench dynamo to penetrate and attack a defense is PERFECT for him. And then you have the Ray Allen clone in Michael Redd who can continue to stroke the 3 and run off curls when Allen heads to the bench. And yes, you obviously lose a ton of offense with Chandler instead of Kareem...but I really like Chandler's role here. A finisher, an offensive rebounder, and a guy who can hold down the defense (although I already mentioned that I think he's overrated). Batum, that's a guy that can check Bird better than anyone else on the team, and he can hit the 3. And Elton Brand is a really underrated player imo, a very solid defender who can hit the midrange J and is also a capable post scorer. He gives you that post option when Kareem is on the bench, and he could also further space the floor for you.

ThunderDan's bench is obviously really good too, beginning with Bernard King, a super explosive scorer coming in as the sparkplug 6th man. You also have Derek Harper, Vlade, Majerle, and Smith as defensive guys. I just don't love the offense the way I love john248's bench, which has a great defensive group as well.

Now, that the benches come into the game, here are some thoughts:
We both have a 6th man of similar caliber: King and Rose. Both have a break-out season at the end of their 3-year-stretch... end then both get injured.

i don't see any kind of advantage for j here, 84 King may be even better than 11 Rose.

I LOVE Batum as a player, but I think, technically he's not even eligible.

He doesn't have a 3-year stretch with at least 75% of games played each year. And he's one of those players who is significantly better now than was 3 years ago, so the actual player in this tournament is not equivalent with the current version of Batum.

J has some athletic big guys (Brand and Chandler), that's definitely a plus. Redd is a good Allen-imitator. I see what you are saying, he has some guys who are somewhat similar to the starters, so they can be inserted smoothly (Nance-Brand, Allen-Redd).

But it's time to praise my bench as well. I'm more than content with Derek Harper as a backup PG. He was a very important part of a dangerous Dallas squad in the late 80's. A classical PG, but also can shoot (!) and play D.
Majerle made 3 (!) consecutive All-Star teams (+ 2 All-D Teams) in the 91-93 stretch that's being used... playing heavy minutes for a great Suns team. Led the NBA in 3-point shooting, combining efficiency with great volume. In one of my all-time favorite games, he bombed the Sonics in a highly-competitive WCF, breaking the the "three-pointers made in a playoff game" record back then. Eventually, he made a couple of threes from like 9m...

Josh Smith was my last pick... I could have taken a banger like Rambis... (I even contemplated Ac Green), but his a versatile player, and I thought he is a nice fit as well, with his transition game, and special little extras on both ends of the court.
And Divac should be another great locker-room guy, and as I said: I (still) like his contrast with Dwight. And it's undeniable that he can play ball. In the other series running, they have Sabonis as a starting C, and I don't think that Divac gives up too much in quality to the Blazers' Sabas...

john248 · Post #22 » by **john248** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 8:04 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Putting him against Grant and Nance on Bird is kind of a mistake imo though. I think a motivated T-Mac is a much better option to go up against Bird, and you definitely don't want him wasting his energy having to battle Grant down low. I think Bird has a pretty huge series either way though, so it doesn't really matter, but I think ThunderDan's team has more success on the boards as a result of the T-Mac/Grant matchup. Of course, T-Mac has a huge offensive advantage either way, whether he's matched up with Grant or Bird.

And yes, you obviously lose a ton of offense with Chandler instead of Kareem...but I really like Chandler's role here. A finisher, an offensive rebounder, and a guy who can hold down the defense (although I already mentioned that I think he's overrated). Batum, that's a guy that can check Bird better than anyone else on the team, and he can hit the 3. And Elton Brand is a really underrated player imo, a very solid defender who can hit the midrange J and is also a capable post scorer. He gives you that post option when Kareem is on the bench, and he could also further space the floor for you.

THIS was the toughest matchup to choose by far.

Tentatively:

Vote: john248

I admit Bird is messing with my head a bit. I just really want to put some pressure on him and Price, especially Price. I don't think TMac would be working as hard defensively with Grant as he would chasing Bird who's in the post and running around off-ball. I don't mind him matched up against Bird at times too since he is extremely athletic which would give Bird problems too. Something like this really depends on what we see from TD9's offensive scheme. I know Bird will get 16 min at PF, so we'll be seeing him in the post more often during that time. In the 22 minutes at SF, the write up sounds like Bird will be more perimeter based with some post action where it sounds like he'll have more of a Kevin Love type of role. TMac can guard Bird in these situations since Bird cannot breakdown his man off the dribble and be a play maker of that type though he's still a good passer who can initiate an offense and find cutters. Bird's most effective play making came in the post where he has additional passing lanes and can draw defenses. I'm not reading that too much here in the strategy though.

Regarding Chandler, I agree that he's not the defensive stopper in the mold of Hakeem or Dwight. IIRC, his DRAPM numbers are in the 4-5 range where the elite guys are 6+. But he does have a high motor & vocal on the floor and can fill the Noah role just fine. It was important to grab him instead of someone like Camby who holds onto the ball more on offense, so having a guy who knows his limitations was more important to me and is still a great value given where I drafted him.

john248 · Post #23 » by **john248** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 9:04 pm

ThunderDan9 wrote:I could live with Larry Bird as the coach of this team.

I am the GM & coach!

I do think the key here is that my 2 strengths in KAJ and TMac can really exploit TD9's team, and I do feel there's a bit more gap when his starting guards can't log heavy minutes where the battle of the benches comes in later where I feel I have a sizable advantage. Role & bench players are huge in the playoffs. The defensive hole at SF is something TMac can feast off of. There isn't really anything my opponent is exploiting or game planning for. Looking past the 2 players of each team that's being talked about the most (KAJ, TMac, Bird, Ginobili), I do feel my rotation and bench is stronger. While King is a definite offensive stand out, I also have multiple scorers with Rose, Brand, and Redd. There also isn't any real defensive help on this from the bench except a bit at the guard spots (Smith playing 4 minutes) where I do have Chandler and Brand down low. The synergy with my team flows with Allen/Redd and KAJ/Brand, so a shooter and post player are available while also having a couple PFs who can draw bigs out. I haven't seen an answer to KAJ other than hoping Dwight single covers him with some perimeter guys not committing to the double.

ThunderDan9 wrote:As opposed to j, I don't see playing Bernard AND Larry problematic on half-court offense. King would have his trademark (unstoppable) baseline drive or he could post-up, no problem... that's the point of Bird's absolute offensive versatility and portability... he would know where to position himself with King in the game. If Bird is in the post, King is another deadly off-ball jump-shooter. I see them play some pick-n-roll with eachother... many problems would arise for the opponents. (For the whole time, imagine other excellent sharp-shooters on the perimeter - but not just sharp-shooters, they all-could drive to the basket - and Dwight lurking in the middle).

King spends a ton of time on the baseline posting up (as you said) and shooting & operating in areas of the floor that are shared by your other players. I don't see him spacing as much as being conveyed here though I'm not saying he won't be effective. He's good at attacking the basket and can finish with both hands. But his passing isn't as good as Vince Carter. And majority of King's shooting on the perimeter came with plays called for him where he came off a curl. This makes me question whether he'll be super effective as a spot up shooter in the mid-range since most everything came in rhythm with his legs moving.

ThunderDan9 wrote:2. Mark Price

He was harshly downplayed by j.
He was rightly considered as one of the best PG's of his era (an overall great era with some amazing crop of floor generals - see my backup or j's starting PG). For this particular three-year stretch, Price was All-NBA First (!!) Team once, and All-NBA Third Team twice. His numbers were outstanding - remember, it's the defensive-minded Eastern Conference in an era that made life for perimiter players not easy (handchecking etc.).

If Porter rightly got his highlight vid, Price deserves his. (They both went somewhat under the radar. Fun fact: Price beat Porter in the finals of the 93 ASG-three-point contest.)

I think he was a great addition to my team in the 4th round. I mean, I pondered the idea of taking Stockton with my 2nd pick.
His playoff ortg seems "cherry-picking" to me... His regular season ortg's were great, he had very high playoff ortgs's earlier... keep in mind: for this three-year stretch, they battled EACH AND EVERY YEAR none other than the Chicago Bulls.

Price is often compared to Nash, and not without a point. It would be really interesting to see them play in the same era. That's a pretty high ceiling. (Supported by the fact that he turned the Cavs into an Eastern powerhouse. His healthy three-year prime - the one that is used in this tournament - correlates with the Cav's successes.) We are talking about a franchise player here.
Price is great at ball-handling, breaking down the defense, passing, shooting.... does it all. He certainly has the edge on Porter who isn't even significantly better than my back-up (!) PG, Derek Harper. (It's my turn now. ).

This still doesn't really change the fact that Price played well under his ability for a NUMBER of years in this playoff format. The fact that he sat behind Brandon in the 4th quarter also speaks loudly. There were times where even Nance would have to bring the ball up court due to Price wasting too much time trying to get it past half court. Then while in half court sets, he turned the ball over at the worst times, especially in the 4th. I would be able to look over some of Price's playoff low offensive rating, but it's there since he wasn't an elite playmaker like Nash in similar situations. Nash turned the ball over a bit too, but he was still super valuable on offense where Price didn't know what he was doing at times.

So back handed compliment coming sorta...Price, Porter, and Petrovic were my 3 guys growing up due to their 3 point shooting...how you are a kid pretending to be guys. I used to call them the 3 P's.

ThunderDan9 wrote:3. Team defense.
- 2*All-D 2nd Team Dan Majerle - a big, strong, athletic guard, a workhorse, who gives you 100% effort and hustle. Another smart defender (No, not because he's white ) He could guard T-Mac for stretches, if it is needed (Harper-Ginobili-Majerle-Bird-Howard, that would still be competent on offense).

An example. The ball gets to KAJ, the primary weapon og j's team. Howard is a great defender, but that's not the best part of my D: it's the fact that the auxilliary defenders are so smart and aware that it enables the closest player to help out on KAJ more than usual, pressing him, bother him... with my player's awareness it could work in some situations. I could see him being frustrated by a Bird-steal (while he is occupied with Howard on him). Divac in an underrated defender, by the way, very smart and tricky, I like the stylisctic contrast between him and Howard, this gives another angle against KAJ. Divac could even "get in his head".

T-Mac would be my biggest concern, but the team concept should again prevail. i don't think he would have to be guarded too vehemently on the perimeter, the main thing is to make it hard to attack the basket with his drives. He didn't take many threes in the 01-03 post-seasons, and those few he converted with pretty poor efficency (20% in 01, 31% in 02), I would rather let him beat from outside. That gives some well-needed room for Bird or whoever (King, Smith, Majerle, Grant) is guarding him, making it a little bit harder to get a decisive advantage with his step. And here comes Dwight's role: if his man-to-man defense wouldn't be as effective against KAJ as I thought, he's certainly an asset here, with his freakish athleticism and mobility. So, there is a 2nd line of defense, with the agile Grant-Howard duo, making it at least harder for T-Mac to make the best solution.
All the other individual matchups, I shouldn't have to worry on.

Defense ends with securing the ball, the Bird-Grant-Howard lineup is one of the best rebounding unit in the whole tournament.

Majerle isn't guarding TMac. Majerle got torched by Jordan where they had to put KJ on him, and TMac is in that mold. He can guard Allen/Redd here at times and the less athletic types who don't know how to use their body to protect the ball, but against the Jordan/TMac/Kobe's of the world, not so much.

I know you want to do a help & recover on KAJ. I'd do a little of that against your team too. With KAJ, he actually holds the ball high up. He's really fundamentally sounds. Going up against Dwight here is a good comparison. Dwight doesn't hold the ball high or is aware enough offensively to protect the ball which leads to turnovers. The difference here is KAJ will force the defense into him more so than a perimeter defender just faking a double team.

TMac is a great slasher. I can live with him being guarded by a trio of poor man defenders if it causes the defense to collapse. He's a good passer who can find the open man as well as draw fouls on Dwight who commits them.

ThunderDan9 wrote:I hope I didn't bore the judges to death.

Again, congrats to john248! Great job.

PS: forget everything I wrote, I really don't know who would win in a real series.
I'm extremely curious how the judges will see this clash of excellent offenses. This is the 2nd best part of this tourney: the judges' evaluation (the best part was the actual drafting process ).

ThunderDan, yea we're both teams who I felt were in the top half in terms of how well put the teams were made. If people are saying they were looking forward to this match-up more than others, I think that screams just how well we did. Great job!

john248 · Post #24 » by **john248** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 9:12 pm

ThunderDan9 wrote:I LOVE Batum as a player, but I think, technically he's not even eligible. He doesn't have a 3-year stretch with at least 75% of games played each year. And he's one of those players who is significantly better now than was 3 years ago, so the actual player in this tournament is not equivalent with the current version of Batum.

J has some athletic big guys (Brand and Chandler), that's definitely a plus. Redd is a good Allen-imitator. I see what you are saying, he has some guys who are somewhat similar to the starters, so they can be inserted smoothly (Nance-Brand, Allen-Redd).

But it's time to praise my bench as well. I'm more than content with Derek Harper as a backup PG. He was a very important part of a dangerous Dallas squad in the late 80's. A classical PG, but also can shoot (!) and play D.
Majerle made 3 (!) consecutive All-Star teams (+ 2 All-D Teams) in the 91-93 stretch that's being used... playing heavy minutes for a great Suns team. Led the NBA in 3-point shooting, combining efficiency with great volume. In one of my all-time favorite games, he bombed the Sonics in a highly-competitive WCF, breaking the the "three-pointers made in a playoff game" record back then. Eventually, he made a couple of threes from like 9m...
Josh Smith was my last pick... I could have taken a banger like Rambis... (I even contemplated Ac Green), but his a versatile player, and I thought he is a nice fit as well, with his transition game, and special little extras on both ends of the court.
And Divac should be another great locker-room guy, and as I said: I (still) like his contrast with Dwight. And it's undeniable that he can play ball. In the other series running, they have Sabonis as a starting C, and I don't think that Divac gives up too much in quality to the Blazers' Sabas...

Batum is eligible. One year was a shortened season, so 59 games played in 66 game season.

I think Majerle has the record for most 3s in a season too a 1 time.

ardee · Post #25 » by **ardee** » Sun Feb 9, 2014 10:07 pm

This is really REALLY hard. These are probably my two favorite teams in the tournament.

Unlike some, both guys drafted with a clear plan in mind and put together beautiful teams.

I wish one of them didn't have to leave so early, but ah well.

Neither team can guard each other at all, but I think ThunderDan9's offense has a slightly higher ceiling.

I'd go with him, by a hair.

Or no wait, I prefer john248's athletes.

But Bird/Manu...

But T-Mac....

Ughh, **** it, I don't envy the judges for this one.

MisterHibachi · Post #26 » by **MisterHibachi** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:59 am

This is a ridiculously tough match up. I'm not even gonna pretend lol

Great write ups by both GMs.

Post #27 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:26 am

Good responses by ThunderDan, still going with john248 but wavering . . . as Dan said, just not sure that a team whose stars are Kareem and TMac has much positive leadership pulling it together as a team. Allen, Nance, and Porter aren't real alpha dogs either, all are outstanding support players with a record of deferring to alpha dogs.

CaliBullsFan · Post #28 » by **CaliBullsFan** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:57 pm

Sorry but you can't tout your chemistry when Dwight is on your team.

bastillon · Post #29 » by **bastillon** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:46 pm

ThunderDan, who is guarding TMac? what are your defensive matchups? please write them cuz I can't really be a judge without knowing the matchups.

MisterHibachi · Post #30 » by **MisterHibachi** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:35 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Good responses by ThunderDan, still going with john248 but wavering . . . as Dan said, just not sure that a team whose stars are Kareem and TMac has much positive leadership pulling it together as a team. Allen, Nance, and Porter aren't real alpha dogs either, all are outstanding support players with a record of deferring to alpha dogs.

Is that a vote for john248 or undecided?

Edit: sorry, didn't see your vote on the first page.

Ell Curry · Post #31 » by **Ell Curry** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:46 pm

This is a really tough one. The Howard-Bird-King-Ginobili-Price lineup basically sounds unstoppable if Bernard is on, but Kareem could probably really frustrate Howard (Big size differential) and while Majerle and Manu were solid, it`s not great perimeter D.

I think Nance is playing too many minutes (33), but I love Rose as the PG leading the 2nd unit, even if he`s not the most efficient player.

I was going to go with Kareem`s team due to their superior center and athleticism, but the more I look at it the more I think Bird could play the 4 without hurting his team`s D, and having Prime Howard in the pick and roll with the shooting or Price, Manu and Bird just sounds lethal, and might force KAJ to have to cover too much ground and Price and Manu can both hit a 3 off the dribble if he stays in the paint.

The game would maybe come down to which of T-Mac or Bernard King got hot. I`ve got Bernard.

Bruh Man · Post #32 » by **Bruh Man** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:27 am

Bird and Manu together would be so much fun to watch, just a great pairing with excellent shooting and playmaking. On the other end Kareem is just too much for Dwight and will probably tip the scale towards John248's team.

ronnymac2 · Post #33 » by **ronnymac2** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:41 am

So I'm supposed to vote against one of these dominant teams?

Well **** me...

ronnymac2 · Post #34 » by **ronnymac2** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:14 am

OK, I'm going to make this quick. Because as difficult as this it, it's also quite simple.

KAJ is still as effective as ever on offense. Dwight is going to go up and block one or two Sky Hooks, but other than that, KAJ is going to dominate Dwight offensively. There is no doubt about this. ThunderDan has no answer for KAJ.

And because of that, they have no answer for T-Mac either. McGrady drives, Howard can't help because he needs to stay with KAJ. McGrady will make the drop-off pass to KAJ for an easy 2. With Ray and Terry spacing the floor or allowing McGrady to be an off-ball threat, McGrady should be dominant.

Love Porter and Chandler in this environment. These guys are like, superstar role players. Rose will compete with Bernard King and Kevin Johnson and Chris Mullin for sixth man of the year in this league.

On the other side...if Dwight Howard was a focal point of the offense, I'd say TD is done for. KAJ and prime Chandler would lock him up easily. But Dwight in his athletic prime is perfect for this lineup of shooters/passers, especially against this opponent. With Nance having to guard Bird and McGrady holding off an excellent offensive rebounder in Horace Grant, Dwight is going to get offensive rebounding opportunities against KAJ, which he'll be able to convert efficiently. He'll also be able to get garbage buckets and buckets off the pick-n-roll.

The key is really Horace Grant. Horace will make T-Mac pay on the offensive glass, provide high-low passes to Dwight and swing passes to Price/Manu/Bird for corner 3's, and hit the mid-range jumper to spread the floor for Bernard/Bird posting up or Dwight on the offensive glass or Manu/Price slashing.

I really like the use of King here. King/Howard is kind of awkward, but with Harper (Honestly, Derek Harper might be the biggest steal in the draft in my opinion...another perfect player in this type of environment) or Price at PG, Manu or Majerle at SG, and Larry Bird at PF, it works. It works even better with Vlade at the high post. Good God...

I know I probably say this for every **** matchup, but I think this might be the best matchup so far. I would have never thought I'd vote against a core of KAJ/McGrady/Allen with Terry Porter and Larry Nance and Tyson Chandler as supporting players. That looks like my kind of team.

But I'm going with ThunderDan9's team. With Nance chasing Larry and with the Larry/Grant/Dwight frontcourt, I think TD gets enough extra possessions via rebounds, and that tips it in TD's favor. Crazy matchup though. Unusual for John's team because he'd usually be able to match McGrady up on any SF. Bird is different though. I get his rationale and I empathize. I had to face Larry Bird once in one of these tourneys. It's not fun.

Vote: ThunderDan9

P.S. I hope every judge ends up needing to vote on this matchup. In a vacuum, these two teams are the best two teams I've seen built. Not saying the winner will be the team I vote the rest of the way, because MATCHUPS are the thing that matter most to me and anybody can beat anybody, but in a vacuum, these two teams are extremely well built. Tremendous job to both of you.

Post #35 » by **Texas Chuck** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:18 pm

Ugh. Let me echo essentially everyone: this matchup is ridiculously hard and both of these teams deserve to advance imo.

Even tho I think both teams, especially TD, are getting underrated defensively, this is clearly going to be an offensive series. KAJ is going to get his. TMac is going to put up huge numbers and I expect Ray Allen to be a huge factor with the space he will have to get shots. On the other side, Price, Bird, and Manu with King off the bench is absurd.

Mark Price and Derrick Harper are two very underrated pgs. I like them a good bit more than Porter/Rose. You have an elite offensive guy in Price and an elite defender who was no slouch offensively in Harp.

Manu/Bird vs TMac/Ray is just so stupid on the wings. Don't really have anything more to add than what's already been said.

I like the bigs on john248's team a lot more than TD's. I love the Horace Grant selection, but KAJ/Nance/Brand/Tyson is just a terrific mix that can do anything and everything you want done.

Super close series so the only way I know to decide it is that in a series where I expect most games to come down to the wire is I trust Price/Manu/Bird more than I trust TMac/Porter/KAJ/Allen. Especially since I dont trust Porter and TMac to continue to feed the big fellow especially not since they will feel they can dominate their individual defender.

My hats off to both guys for assembling terrific teams.

Vote: ThunderDan9 in 7

ThunderDan9 · Post #36 » by **ThunderDan9** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:24 pm

bastillon wrote:ThunderDan, who is guarding TMac? what are your defensive matchups? please write them cuz I can't really be a judge without knowing the matchups.

I tried to outline the basics of my defense as follows:

Spoiler:

Howard on KAJ, Price on Porter, Manu on Allen is pretty obvious.
I will be honest: T-Mac is a problem, I can't deny it, I just can't.

a) Bird could and will defend Nance or Brand just fine of course. Individually he is a little slow for T-Mac, who basically plays like a guard. He still has to defend him for some stretch, so it begins with Bird on T-Mac (yeah, not ideal

). T-Mac will score. But so did someone like Dominique Wilkins, and Bird still lit him up on the other end.
b) Now, I have Horace as the 5th player, and while no McHale, and most definitely no Rodman, he could still bother T-Mac for some change. He is mainly a post defender of course, but still one of the quicker, more athletic PF's. I would see how it works, and certainly wouldn't mind if they have to switch with Larry on certain occasions.
c) When King comes in, he would be the main defender on T-Mac. I still think he would score more on him than vice versa... especially surrounded by all that passing (and shooting threats) galore.
d) And it's usually a good idea to throw multiple defenders on a guy like T-Mac... Majerle and Smith would also try to guard him for some possessions. Yeah, Majerle got burnt by Jordan in the 93 Finals, but who didn't? :lol:

(He was still the Suns' best chance, not Dumas or KJ.) I still think he could be a nice option on T-Mac.
e) Then we could try to play some zone for a change, like a flexible match-up zone for example - just to confuse the opponent, whose forwards are not really smart and good passing players (T-Mac is more of a guard). My defensive cast would be suitable for these kind of tactics.

I still insist that my team defense should be pretty good. I insist on that. :lol:

All those smart players led by Bird and Ginobili and Grant, awereness, good rotations, quick hands, 100% effort, and of course a true defensive backbone intimidating in the middle.
Individually, T-Mac is a mismatch, but so is Bird, King (and hopefully, my whole offensive weaponry).

MisterHibachi · Post #37 » by **MisterHibachi** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:59 am

bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: john248
ronnymac2: ThunderDan9
Doctor MJ
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: ThunderDan9
therealbig3: john248

I think this is the first matchup that's even after 4 votes. We might need a tie breaker the way things are going. Goes to show you how close these two teams are.

therealbig3 · Post #38 » by **therealbig3** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:16 pm

bastillon, SideshowBob, Doctor MJ, and TMAC4MVP...

Could you guys give your breakdowns and votes please, lol? This is a great matchup, I'm really curious to see your thoughts on it.

Post #39 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:27 am

Sorry I've been spotty lately. I keep reading the threads and feeling like I need more time...and then getting distracted. Tough to pull the trigger.

Vote: ThunderDan9

In general I like an offense built around Bird more than Kareem, and this isn't top Kareem. Add to that that if I have Kareem, I don't really want my next star to be a perimeter volume scorer who sometimes has efficiency issues.

By contrast building around Bird with anything like a suped up Robert Parish makes a ton of sense to me, and with each pick afterward I just keep thinking "that'd work, that'd work, that'd work too". And I suppose that's really the thing for me, ThunderDan starts with the edge for me, and with the next few picks he either gains ground or holds steady. Hard to beat that.

john, I thought you did a great job as well though. My quibbles are minor even if it seems like I'm hammering you.

SideshowBob · Post #40 » by **SideshowBob** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:53 am

This is the closest matchup IMO, but I like ThunderDan just a little bit better overall. Don't agree on the years for Kareem and I think the Bird centered offense has a both a higher ceiling (imagine the ball-movement on that team) and more diversity (greater resilience to stronger defenses). Not going to breakdown too much on that end, because I feel like there's been a lot of talk already and most of the things I'd say have already been covered, unless someone disagrees.

I want to focus on why I think ThunderDan's defense might be a key in his team taking this series. Namely the personnel:

-09-11 Howard provides major rim protection and lateral coverage (paint protection). Also elite defensive rebounder
-Smith's length and shot-blocking even in limited minutes
-Ginobili provides disruptive activity on the perimeter, can cover passing lanes, stick with his man, recovers well
-Bird, while pretty poor as a man defender, can stick with the team sets relatively mistake-free, and can create some timely turnovers and disrupt interior passing. Elite defensive rebounding
-Like Grant's mobility, and he's diverse and athletic enough to cover both 3/4. More dominant on the offensive glass than the defensive though.

All-in-all, I think this team's well equipped to cover a PnR offense. I think that if their execution is spot-on, they're going to cause problems for the McGrady/Kareem PnR and the off-ball action. Not enough to shut them down, but enough to force them to rely more on isolation scoring, which IMO has a limitation in that relying on it too much is going to result in poor team offense. Ideally run, john's team is going to have a healthy balance, of PnR, and McGrady/Kareem isolation/post offense. The goal of the defense then is to tip that balance in their favor. If Kareem/McGrady go off, you live with it, but I don't think that strategy is going to be efficient enough over the course of a 7 game series that it would be able to outproduce the kind of results we should get from the harder to stop Bird lead offense.

Vote: ThunderDan9 in 7