To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ?

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Which duo to start a team?

Hakeem+Kobe
8
32%
KG+MJ
17
68%
 
Total votes: 25

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Dipper 13
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#21 » by Dipper 13 » Wed Jul 2, 2014 10:03 pm

Do you have the impact stats for Kobe and KG? I'd love to see that.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2004/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2008/


But if comparable means 85% of Jordan, I would apply that description to Kobe.


This I agree with.


Effectiveness and style are two different things. If you want to talk about efficiency then you are going into Adrian Dantley territory.


He was, but also a ball stopper. Jordan in the 90's was not nearly as ball dominant as the modern day perimeter stars. He was shot dominant, but with Phil Jackson becoming his coach and Pippen becoming the main ball handler, Jordan became a more effective scorer by adding more variance in his attacking the defense on the floor, almost like Bird. Even in isolation, he tended to be quick and decisive, very seldom holding onto the ball longer than 3-4 seconds. He was particularly excellent at quickly flashing to the post and playing out of the pivot. If the defense denied him the ball, they would swing it around and he would pop out off a screen and get the ball at the top of the key often attacking the vulnerable defense at this point, not allowing his man to catch up.


In this example below, Miami fails to keep the ball out of his hands in the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuVO-yxZNqg&t=3m46s



Another quick flash into the post against New York, but this ends up with Jordan coming off the screen and into a quick isolation at the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDqJZ96hOBU&t=2m7s



The Jordan Rules: The Inside Story of Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls - Sam Smith

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Jim Naismith
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#22 » by Jim Naismith » Wed Jul 2, 2014 11:00 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
Do you have the impact stats for Kobe and KG? I'd love to see that.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2004/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2008/


Does the quality of the teammates distort the on-off measure?

If you go to a situation where they're playing with equal-tier teammates, the plus/minus numbers equalize somewhat.

Kobe 2003 playoffs is +17.3, while KG 2008 playoffs is +19.8.

EDIT: As an aside, Iguodala's 2013-14 RS plus-minus is +17.9(!)
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Dipper 13
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#23 » by Dipper 13 » Wed Jul 2, 2014 11:16 pm

Does the quality of the teammates distort the on-off measure?


To some extent. But that is why many posters prefer RAPM.
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#24 » by G35 » Thu Jul 3, 2014 12:03 am

Dipper 13 wrote:
Do you have the impact stats for Kobe and KG? I'd love to see that.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2004/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2008/


But if comparable means 85% of Jordan, I would apply that description to Kobe.


This I agree with.


Effectiveness and style are two different things. If you want to talk about efficiency then you are going into Adrian Dantley territory.


He was, but also a ball stopper. Jordan in the 90's was not nearly as ball dominant as the modern day perimeter stars. He was shot dominant, but with Phil Jackson becoming his coach and Pippen becoming the main ball handler, Jordan became a more effective scorer by adding more variance in his attacking the defense on the floor, almost like Bird. Even in isolation, he tended to be quick and decisive, very seldom holding onto the ball longer than 3-4 seconds. He was particularly excellent at quickly flashing to the post and playing out of the pivot. If the defense denied him the ball, they would swing it around and he would pop out off a screen and get the ball at the top of the key often attacking the vulnerable defense at this point, not allowing his man to catch up.


In this example below, Miami fails to keep the ball out of his hands in the post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuVO-yxZNqg&t=3m46s



Another quick flash into the post against New York, but this ends up with Jordan coming off the screen and into a quick isolation at the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDqJZ96hOBU&t=2m7s



The Jordan Rules: The Inside Story of Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls - Sam Smith

Image




I understand all that but great efficiency doesn't always equal better effectiveness. Kobe was able to generate some efficient offenses with weak Laker support.

2005 Lakers 7th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

2006 Lakers 8th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

2007 Lakers 7th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html


This is with Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Radmanovich, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook as his primary support.

This matches up favorably with Jordan in his pre-Phil, Pippen, Grant, triangle days

1985 Bulls 11th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1985.html

1986 was his injury year

1987 Bulls 12th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1987.html

1988 Bulls 9th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html

1989 Bulls 12th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1989.html

1990 Bulls 5th in ORtg
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1990.html


So Kobe and Michael in similar situations are very comparable as far as their impact on their teams offenses......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#25 » by Brooklyn_34 » Thu Jul 3, 2014 12:58 am

MJ and KG for me.

MJ IMO is so far ahead of Olajuwon and Kobe that it negates any edge they would have over Garnett.

For me, it's MJ then everyone else.

The scoring, passing and defense from this pair would be formidable.

TBH, I don't know how well Olajuwon and Bryant would mesh together.

Hakeem in his younger days was NOT pass conscious and Kobe is Kobe.

A younger Hakeem probably would force a trade if he had to play long with Kobe, and I am dead serious.

I don't see two of them lasting on the same team a long time.
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Re: To start a team: Hakeem+Kobe or KG+MJ? 

Post#26 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Jul 3, 2014 1:07 am

So Kobe and Michael in similar situations are very comparable as far as their impact on their teams offenses......


A big part of this is also the rule changes. It may not seem like much but when the NBA changes the rules of how the sport is played, in hopes of boosting offense it will have an effect on everything from coaching game plans to roster moves. That is a big reason why the post up has been almost eliminated today compared to past eras, it is way too easy for the guards to do whatever they want offensively. Looking at the impact Jordan was presumably having on a title contending team, there is little reason to believe that he wasn't even approaching that kind of value on a lesser team in the 80's. Unlike most on the forum, I refuse to use various arbitrary statistics against players from the past eras, when that data does not exist for those years. Just look how they tore down the likes of Wilt Chamberlain. We even have posters here who rank him outside the top 20.

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