RealGM Top 100 List #14

[colts18]

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

[Doctor MJ]

Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

In what way is Wade better than West?

Well i think Peak wise Wade gets the edge, i would say West had the better career though. More quality seasons.

So here's the thing I've been thinking about recently with Wade:

His entire prime as an alpha took place on meh team offenses. Even in the title year of '06 where he went nuclear, he didn't make his team's offense unstoppable, he just kept them afloat while the team won with defense. (Miami beat Dallas with a 101 ORtg in the series, where in the previous round a very injured Phoenix team put 111 ORtg on Dallas, and the Spurs went for 110.)

So there's an issue I think in how people tend to perceive Wade:

When an alpha wins a title, it's like he becomes a "made man". People don't question him. He's "proven" he can do what every star is ideally able to do.

However if you're an offensive star who wins a title with a team that won because of its defense, all you've proven is that is that if you build a great defensive team this offensive star is good enough to pull you to mediocrity on the weak side of the ball.

This is a criticism that's not new around the PC board. It gets brought up with Isiah and with AI and we tend to focus on efficiency issues. Very understandable of course, and Wade has good efficiency so it's all good, right?

I'm not so sure. He always had a simplistic game, succeeding in spite of the fact that he's quite a bit worse at shooting than other superstar guards. And of course his inability to shoot well has everything to do with why it took such innovative thinking for Miami to fully blossom with the Heatles. Wade's clearly not build to be a second option (he's not horrible, but he's not as good as his alpha talent would typically yield), but even as a first option, do we see him as a guy who would let you simply built to elite team offense?

West by contrast? Short of you utterly in disbelief when people call him a great talent, I don't see how there's any doubt as to whether he could lead a great offense. He basically lived in good offenses, working sometimes as a second option, and working sometimes as more of a point guard than a shooting guard. He seems to have taken to the Princeton like a boss as well. His playmaking and his shooting let him have a much more diverse game that's not nearly so predictable.

[ThaRegul8r]

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

[colts18]

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

That's Minneapolis. No one led a Los Angeles Lakers title before West.

[RebelWithACause]

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

Colts focused on the bolded, Mikan led the Minneapolis Lakers. Same franchise, different cities.

[RebelWithACause]

In what way is Wade better than West?

Well i think Peak wise Wade gets the edge, i would say West had the better career though. More quality seasons.

So here's the thing I've been thinking about recently with Wade:

His entire prime as an alpha took place on meh team offenses. Even in the title year of '06 where he went nuclear, he didn't make his team's offense unstoppable, he just kept them afloat while the team won with defense. (Miami beat Dallas with a 101 ORtg in the series, where in the previous round a very injured Phoenix team put 111 ORtg on Dallas, and the Spurs went for 110.)

So there's an issue I think in how people tend to perceive Wade:

When an alpha wins a title, it's like he becomes a "made man". People don't question him. He's "proven" he can do what every star is ideally able to do.

However if you're an offensive star who wins a title with a team that won because of its defense, all you've proven is that is that if you build a great defensive team this offensive star is good enough to pull you to mediocrity on the weak side of the ball.

This is a criticism that's not new around the PC board. It gets brought up with Isiah and with AI and we tend to focus on efficiency issues. Very understandable of course, and Wade has good efficiency so it's all good, right?

I'm not so sure. He always had a simplistic game, succeeding in spite of the fact that he's quite a bit worse at shooting than other superstar guards. And of course his inability to shoot well has everything to do with why it took such innovative thinking for Miami to fully blossom with the Heatles. Wade's clearly not build to be a second option (he's not horrible, but he's not as good as his alpha talent would typically yield), but even as a first option, do we see him as a guy who would let you simply built to elite team offense?

West by contrast? Short of you utterly in disbelief when people call him a great talent, I don't see how there's any doubt as to whether he could lead a great offense. He basically lived in good offenses, working sometimes as a second option, and working sometimes as more of a point guard than a shooting guard. He seems to have taken to the Princeton like a boss as well. His playmaking and his shooting let him have a much more diverse game that's not nearly so predictable.

Alpha years as in 2009 and 2010?

[ThaRegul8r]

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

Colts focused on the bolded, Mikan led the Minneapolis Lakers. Same franchise, different cities.

Anyone who's been here for any length of time should know the reason for my reply to the initial post:

Comes down to Julius Erving, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Dwyane Wade for me.

In what way is Wade better than West?

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

The Heat had never won anything before Wade led them to a title in 2006, while the Lakers had already won five times before 1972. I'll point out that that isn't my criteria (which I've posted on several occasions, and that's nowhere on it), but that of the poster to whom penbeast0 posed his question.

[Basketballefan]

In what way is Wade better than West?

Well i think Peak wise Wade gets the edge, i would say West had the better career though. More quality seasons.

So here's the thing I've been thinking about recently with Wade:

His entire prime as an alpha took place on meh team offenses. Even in the title year of '06 where he went nuclear, he didn't make his team's offense unstoppable, he just kept them afloat while the team won with defense. (Miami beat Dallas with a 101 ORtg in the series, where in the previous round a very injured Phoenix team put 111 ORtg on Dallas, and the Spurs went for 110.)

You act as if Wade had a lot of good offensive players around him in his prime...that 06 title team had Shaq and Antonie Walker as their 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and when the finals rolled around he completely carried them on the offensive end their 2nd leading scorer wasn't even getting 15 ppg. The ghosts of Payton and Alonzo along with Posey and and a past prime Shaq and Walker isn't a good offensive cast. Then the years between Shaq and Lebron he was playing with scrubs, what was he supposed to do have a top 5 offense with Beasley and Haslem?

The fact that you even put Iverson and Thomas in Wade's class is just ridiculous. Who cares if Wade won on a title team that was more defensive than offensive, it's defense that ultimately wins championships and Wade obviously helped on that end he wasn't average or a negative on defense.

I'm not at all advocating Wade for this spot, but i feel your assessment is disrespect and really underrating him and his abilities. Nobody's claiming him to be Nash or LBJ on offense.

[Doctor MJ]

Alpha years as in 2009 and 2010?

Those are alpha years yes, I was including at least back through '06 though.

My guess is that your point is that we didn't get to see much of him at his absolute peak as an alpha due to injury...which is a great point if your argument is "We haven't seen enough to assume we couldn't do it."

There are two sides to that coin though. Wade only has 5 seasons total in which he played 70+ games. One of those was with LeBron, and one of those was with Shaq almost winning the MVP. Even including the Shaq year, there was never a time where he took part in an elite offense except in the LeBron year where his team's offense was about the same as LeBron's had been previously in Cleveland.

What I'm saying is that Wade actually hasn't directly shown us that much. He's shown us that he can will a team's offense from bad to mediocre, which is great, but it's not the same as leading stellar team offense, and I find myself wondering if he's a guy more ideally suited to the former than the latter. This is not simply due to the fact he hasn't shown it, but also due to the fact that this is something we tend to see from volume scorers.

And to emphasize a word I used before: The minimalism of Wade's game both intrigues me and worries me. I remember marveling as he stormed through the playoffs early on by seemingly doing the same thing over and over again. I was shocked that something so simple that kids do it on the playground could be so successful on the NBA level. It seemed like you could stop it.

And when you look at the numbers, well, they did stop it. They didn't shut it down, but they didn't get destroyed by it by any means. If you had told Dallas ahead of time that they could limit Miami (a 108 ORtg team) to 101 ORtg by letting Wade do his thing, they'd have taken it! If that happens and Dallas just scores more, we view Wade entirely differently today don't we?

As I say all this, I've marveled in the past at Wade's ability to "burn nuclear" when he needs to. The way he was all over the places in the '11 finals was undoubtedly a very, very good thing, and feel free to factor that in. However I see no reason to conclude that he can actually torch defenses with his driving approach alone. To me the counterargument would be talking about his playmaking skills.

(Tangent: And of course, the driving aspect, the fall down 7, get up 8, that we all admire so much - I say with unabashed sincerity - has everything to do with why he seems to have left his prime at age 29, which is a serious issue in comparison to other all-time greats.)

[RayBan-Sematra]

You act as if Wade had a lot of good offensive players around him in his prime...that 06 title team had Shaq and Antonie Walker as their 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, and when the finals rolled around he completely carried them on the offensive end their 2nd leading scorer wasn't even getting 15 ppg.

To be fair Shaq did average 17ppg on I think 69% shooting? or some ridiculous percentage in Miami's first 3 wins.
Still pretty mediocre in terms of volume but better then his series stats would suggest.
Also he got lots of defensive attention in that series which helped open things up for Wade.

In regards to why Miami had weak team ORTG's in 2009/2010 I would say that had more to do with their style of play (slow it down, grind it out) rather then some fault in Wade.
That is not even mentioning how atrocious those casts were. Worse then the casts Kobe had in the mid 00's imo.

Miami's average team SRS from 09-10 is pretty much identical to the Laker's SRS from 06-07 with similar win totals.
So... it would seem that Wade's impact was fully translating since you wouldn't really expect a SG like Kobe or Wade to carry such bad casts much further then he actually did.

Also didn't 2010 Wade set the record for highest offensive RAPM ever?

[JeepCSC]

I don't know the rules, but I like Wade so I will ask a question. During the Garnett talks, RAPM was used to counter the idea that Garnett is not responsible for mediocre team defense. I'd assume the same would take place for Wade here. Though I'd add I don't remember the Heat being a bad or even mediocre offensive team. I thought they were clearly in the upper echelon, just not in the Suns/Mavs area.

That said, I wouldn't have Wade here. Though for reasons other than 2006 being used as a spot on his resume.

[penbeast0]

...

I'm not at all advocating Wade for this spot, but i feel your assessment is disrespect and really underrating him and his abilities. Nobody's claiming him to be Nash or LBJ on offense.

But Jerry West IS Steve Nash level on offense or close to it . . . and arguably better than Wade on defense and leadership and Wade doesn't have durability/length of career to any extent over him as well.

I just don't see Wade on that level; great player and great guy (I live in South Florida and have had him out to my old school where he was a very class act) but not up to West's class.

[Warspite]

Vote drJ

1976 is the best peak season of any player left to vote for

Best playoff player left to vote for (apologies to West who is #2)


Prime consists of 4MVPs 6 Finals appearances and a ECF in 9 yrs with 2 different teams.

Legit career length with 16 all star appearances.

Only KG, DrJ and Hakeem are top 25 all time in blocks and steals.

[drza]

Only DrJ and Hakeem are top 20 all time in blocks and steals.

Minor point alert, but this actually isn't true. Dr J is 22nd in career blocks if you include ABA and NBA. KG is the one that technically joins Hakeem in the top 20 of both blocks and steals. Either way, your point about the uniqueness of J's accomplishment stands

[ThaRegul8r]

I'll refrain from voting at this point, but I'll give my thoughts at the moment:

Jerry West is the guy I'm sort of in love with. Right now. To me he seems like a guy on the low end of the top tier of offensive GOAT contenders and so far as I can tell a legit defensive force. I have him ahead of Oscar on my list. I find him most impressive...but there is a longevity issue to consider, particularly relative to...

Karl Malone. I really don't know if I can put West over Malone.

I put up a section in my notes comparing West to (Karl) Malone (mainly for my own clarity since I've never bothered making a list before), and, though different people value different things, based on my criteria, I just don't see Malone over West. West routinely faced the greatest defensive team of his era and the GOAT defensive dynasty, was guarded by K.C. Jones, who in turn was backed up by the GOAT defender, and regularly came up big. As I've said before, if people give Malone a pass for having to go against Jordan, West ran up against Russell a whole lot more often than Malone did against Jordan. And Russell denied a whole lot more players titles than Jordan did. But the important thing is that West actually played well enough to merit a championship:

8. The only thing of relevance is how a player helps his team win, which means the player in question’s performance will be evaluated. If that player has a poor performance and another player picks up the slack to help his team win, then that player receives no bonus for his teammate bailing him out. Conversely, just as a doctor can try to the best of his ability to help keep a patient alive but fail, so can a player try to the best of his ability to help his team win but ultimately fail. His individual performance will be assessed, and if he didn’t help his team lose, he will incur no penalty. However, if he was instrumental in his own team’s defeat, he will be penalized accordingly.

Looking at my criteria, the only one Malone has an advantage on would be this:

11. A player does not cease to help his team win after passing his peak/prime. He may not be able to make as large a contribution as he formerly did due to age, but continuing to contribute to team wins to the extent one is able is still valuable to the team he plays for and helps the team obtain the ultimate objective. A player’s career consists of more than just his peak, as he won’t be at his peak for his entire career. Only seasons in which a player helped his team win will be considered in the overall evaluation.

But Malone's longevity doesn't put him over the edge if his play wasn't enough to help his team win, while West's was. West's performance is a plus over Malone. And criterion #10:

10. The object of the game is to help your team win. In lieu of actually achieving that objective, helping your team get as close to it as possible. Helping your team get to the semifinals > losing in the opening round; helping your team get to the conference finals > losing in the semifinals; helping your team get to the Finals > losing in the conference finals. Getting closer to the ultimate goal of winning is always a positive. Finishing farther away from it is always a negative. Helping your team get to the Finals but losing is always better than losing in an earlier round.

West continually leading his team to the Finals only to lose to Russell is a plus. Russell's the GOAT for some, and was simply a better player than West. There is no shame in losing to a better player so far as your own performance is up to par (losing to a better player isn't an excuse if your own performance was subpar). Malone wasn't leading his team to the Finals against Jordan every year. And that first time, it was Stockton who put them there, not Malone.

[colts18]

What I'm saying is that Wade actually hasn't directly shown us that much. He's shown us that he can will a team's offense from bad to mediocre, which is great, but it's not the same as leading stellar team offense, and I find myself wondering if he's a guy more ideally suited to the former than the latter. This is not simply due to the fact he hasn't shown it, but also due to the fact that this is something we tend to see from volume scorers.

It's extremely hypocritical of you to tout KG carrying his teams to mediocre defenses and explaining it by mentioning RAPM, yet you won't do the same. Wade's 2010 season was actually the 2nd highest offensive RAPM in history (higher than any LeBron season). Wade has 4 of the top 26 offensive RAPM seasons.


Year Rank Name Offense per 100
2007 1 Steve Nash 7.9
2010 2 Dwyane Wade 7.6
2007 3 Baron Davis 7.5
2008 4 Steve Nash 7.4
2010 5 LeBron James 7.1
2007 6 LeBron James 7.1
2009 7 LeBron James 6.6
2007 8 Manu Ginobili 6.5
2010 9 Steve Nash 6.3
2007 10 Tim Duncan 6.3
2011 11 Steve Nash 6.2
2009 12 Steve Nash 6.2
2007 13 Chauncey Billups 6.1
2007 14 Dwyane Wade 6.1
2007 15 Carlos Boozer 6
2007 16 Dirk Nowitzki 6
2007 17 Jason Richardson 6
2007 18 Kobe Bryant 6
2007 19 Antawn Jamison 5.9
2006 20 Kobe Bryant 5.9
2009 21 Kobe Bryant 5.8
2001 NPI 22 Shaquille O'Neal 5.8
2009 23 Dwyane Wade 5.7
2008 24 Kobe Bryant 5.7
2011 25 Dirk Nowitzki 5.6
2011 26 Dwyane Wade 5.5


4 out of the top 26 and 7 out of the top 44 seasons.

[DQuinn1575]

He led a team that never won anything before to a title.

Duh.

West did lead the Los Angeles Lakers to their first title.

Mikan had already led the Lakers franchise to a handful of titles before West got there.

So does that mean you think a player is greater if he led the Clippers to a title, but not the Hawks or the Kings since the franchises won in the 50s in St Louis and Rochester?

[ThaRegul8r]

[...]

Regarding West defensively.
I am thinking that West was one of the greatest help defenders ever at the guard position.
He had underrated athletic ability combined with ultra long arms and amazing timing.

Even at age 35 while only playing 30mpg he averaged nearly 3spg/1bpg.
He was probably a lock for 3+spg / 1+bpg in his actual Prime.

I think Jerry is clearly the best candidate for this spot.
He was a better scorer and playmaker then Erving and while I am high on Erving's defensive ability West was no pushover on that end.

“What people don’t realize is that Jerry was one of the greatest defensive guards ever,” Red Auerbach said (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA, in the Words of the Men Who Played, Coached, and Built Pro Basketball, p. 191). The NBA All-Defensive Teams didn’t exist until West’s ninth season in the league, but in the six years that he played, he was a four-time First Team selection (1970-73) and one-time Second Team selection (1969).

“His offense is so great that people sometimes overlook the other things he does for his team,” Wilt Chamberlain said of West. “By his mere presence he creates so many mismatches. He has such quick hands that he is always a threat to steal the ball. I don’t think Jerry is as great on one-on-one. You know where he has to guard a guy one-on-one. Like maybe Howard Komives. But what Jerry is able to do is play his man tough enough and then when the man passes off, he’s able to anticipate the pass and steal the ball as quick as anyone in the league. He’s just a good all-around basketball player and I don’t think there’s anyone better” (Williamson Daily News, Jan 6, 1971).

“I wish they had kept track of steals when Jerry and I played because we would have been the league leaders,” Lenny Wilkens said. “He had hands that were as quick as a snake’s tongue” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191). Steals weren’t kept until the 1973-74 season—West’s last in the league, but in the first year they were recorded, West had 10 steals in a game Dec. 7, 1973 in a 115-111 loss to Seattle to set a single-game record. Feb. 3, 1974, West had 19 points, 14 rebounds, 10 assists and seven steals in a 124-91 win over Portland. In the 1973-74 season, West had 81 steals in 31 games (2.62 spg), in 967 minutes at 35 years old. His steal percentage was 3.6, and his block percentage 1.1.

In Game 3 of the 1962 NBA Finals against the Boston Celtics, West stole Sam Jones’ in-bounds pass to Bob Cousy at midcourt with three seconds left and scored on a layup to give the Lakers a 117-115 win. In Game 2 of the 1963 Western Division Finals against the St. Louis Hawks, West “stole a Hawk pass in the dying seconds […], dribbled into scoring range and swished the ball for the deciding basket” (Gettysburg Times, Apr 2 1963) for a 101-99 win. Jan. 17, 1968, West had seven rebounds, 10 assists and 12 steals. Nov. 9, 1968, West had 29 points and nine steals as the Lakers beat the Celtics 116-106 for their ninth straight victory. Dec. 6, 1968, West had eight steals in a 99-94 win over Atlanta. In Game 6 of the 1970 Western Division Semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, West scored a game-high 35 points “and was credited with an unofficial 12 steals defensively” (Ocala Star Banner, Apr 8, 1970) in a 104-93 Laker win which tied the series at 3-3 after being down 3-1. Nov. 11, 1970, West had 26 points, 11 assists and nine steals in a 149-124 win over Seattle. Dec. 13, 1971, West had 23 points, 15 assists and seven steals in a 129-114 win over Portland for the Lakers’ 22nd consecutive win. In the 1972 All Star Game, West had 13 points on 6-for-9 shooting—seven in the fourth quarter, six rebounds, five assists and six steals in 27 minutes and hit the game-winning 21-footer over Walt Frazier for a 112-110 West win. Jan. 23, 1972, West “scored 37 points, made at least nine steals, hit 15 of 26 shots, passed off for 13 assists and generated sparks in a sizzling fast break” in a 118-105 win over Milwaukee. Nov. 11, 1972, West had 27 points, 10 assists and 10 steals in only three quarters in a 118-88 win over Cleveland.

Jerry West Nips Hawks In Clutch

ATLANTA (AP) — “They don’t call Jerry West ‘Mister Clutch’ for nothing,” said Los Angeles Coach Bill Sharman after the veteran guard sparked the Lakers to a last-minute 102-100 National Basketball Association victory over the Atlanta Hawks.

A steal by West from the Hawks’ Pete Maravich in the closing minutes, sealed the Lakers’ victory Sunday afternoon before a crowd of 8,478 at the Omni and a national television audience.

West, incidentally, led the Lakers with 37 points. Maravich had 28 for the Hawks.

“People keep saying he’s going to slow down,” Sharman said of West. “But he doesn’t. That steal from Maravich decided the game.”

Until that point, the Hawks only trailed by a point at 95-94. Then West went into his act and the Lakers had a 99-94 edge and eventually the game.

“In close games, West seems to take over,” said Sharman of his 34-year-old backcourt ace.
(Waycross Journal-Herald, Jan 15, 1973.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HQ ... 12,1356092)

Mar. 2, 1973, Lakers’ coach Bill Sharman said, “Jerry West is the greatest defensive guard who’s ever played in the NBA” after West had 19 points, eight assists and nine steals in 33 minutes after coming back from a 10-game injury hiatus to lead the Lakers to a 108-88 win over Chicago. Mar. 25, 1973, West had six steals in the third quarter and blocked a shot by Spencer Haywood as the Lakers went from a 47-43 halftime lead to a 79-63 lead after three, in a 109-93 win over Seattle. Seattle coach Bucky Buckwaiter said, “when Jerry West dies, they ought to cut off his hands and bronze them.”

Although they didn’t keep track of the stats as they do today, I would say that Jerry West blocked more shots and had more steals than any guard who ever played in the NBA. He had those long arms and great quickness that was very deceptive until he stole the ball from you a few times. […] He is one of the very few players that was a true superstar on offense and defense. There are only a couple of other players in the history of the league that you can say that about at both ends of the court. Many are superstars at one end, but not both.

“West’s size is deceiving,” wrote Phil Elderkin. “While he is only 6ft. 3in. and 185 pounds, his arm span from fingertip to fingertip is 81 inches. He has the reach of a man 6-7 or 6-8.” “Red used to say that you don’t judge a player by only his height, you need to consider the length of his arms,” John Havlicek said. “Jerry had something like a 39-inch sleeve. He was 6-foot-2, but he had the arms of a man 6-foot-7. That made him so tough when he guarded you. He could use those long arms to poke away your dribble, I mean really pick your pocket” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

“Coach John Kerr of the Bulls proved he knows whereof he speaks before last night’s game when he was asked for an opinion on West’s switch to guard Robinson. ‘He is the best defensive guard in the league,’ Kerr said” (Robert Logan, “Lakers Deals Bulls 3D Playoff Loss: West Stops Robinson in 93-87 Victory.” Chicago Tribune, Mar 30, 1968). In an ESPN SportsNation Chat with Sam Jones, Jones said: “I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West. He had long arms and you knew he was going to have a lot of points. When you played against him, you had to bring it offensively and defensively.”

“Jerry was so methodical,” John Vanak said. “He wore you out with his jump shot, his relentless defense, and unlike a lot of guards, he had enough guts to go under the basket for rebounds” (Terry Pluto, Tall Tales, p. 191).

[DannyNoonan1221]

You are actually making a great case for Dirk here in place of Moses because Dirk was a terrific defensive rebounder which is more valuable and he always got back on defense which is a large part of a guy who to the eye test isn't as impressively defensively as some other guys always rates well in +/- and RAPM.

I actually would have no problem voting Dirk here. and I think you make a good point. But i also don't think that showing the team rankings over the past 4 finals winners is enough to prove that offensive rebounds don't matter.

Only 56 teams have had a season with over 1,000 offensive rebounds. Here is a list of the teams included on that list:

All 6 Bulls championship teams
82-83 76ers
91-92 portland
81-82 lakers
82-83 lakers
79-80 76ers
89-90 Pistons
83-84 Celtics
80-81 Celtics
88-89 Pistons
92-93 Suns
74-75 Bullets
73-74 Bucks
86-87 Lakers
99-00 Lakers
84-85 Celtics
88-89 Lakers
79-80 Lakers
90-91 Lakers
87-88 Lakers
84-85 Lakers
85-86 Celtics
81-82 76ers
05-06 Mavs
01-02 Lakers
08-09 Lakers

That is 31 teams that had over 1000 offensive rebounds and made the finals- based on going through the total list and what I saw, I would say close to 85% of the teams on that list of 1000+ were Conference Finals teams.

Hard to argue OReb don't translate. Sure, during the 70s, 80s and 90s it seemed to dominate a little more, but that is a big chunk of the history of the NBA.

[RayBan-Sematra]

...

Awesome stuff TR. I love it.

Info like that really helps me flesh out my opinions and views especially when there is a shortage of video/advanced statistics as is the case with most older legends.