George Mikan's numbers in each decade

[Pg81]

Can't we just appreciate him for being one of the great pioneers of the game?

[90sAllDecade]

I appreciate him, but I think the best way to appreciate him would be to figure out how to accurately rank him.

If he's better or worse than others it's good to be honest about it imo. He'll always be the first NBA superstar, a pioneer and in the history books either way imo.

Here's a modern comparison PenBeast made to Jeff Ruland, who is a great comparison. I don't think Mikan had the same skill level though, but physically I see the similarities:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjJe6I5auA[/youtube]

To contribute to the questions about Mikan's translation, he did have serious injuries after 51 that affected him. The lane widening reduced his effectiveness a little, although they still won a championship. But his mounting injuries were taking a toll.

For the first time since Mikan had begun playing professional basketball, his team did not win a championship. Minneapolis fell to Rochester in the Western Division Finals, three games to one, largely because Mikan hobbled through the series with a fractured leg. "The doctors taped a plate on it for the playoffs," Mikan told Newsday in 1990. "I played all right, scored in the 20s. I couldn't run, sort of hopped down the court."

Injured or healthy, Mikan was in his prime. Unlike other players in the league, he was able to draw large crowds wherever he went. People clamored to watch the bespectacled Goliath play with the grace and agility of men a foot shorter. From 1949 to 1954 he was named the center on the All-NBA First Team. He starred in the first four NBA All-Star Games, from 1951 to 1954, including a 26-point, 15-rebound performance in the 1952 contest. He could deliver hook shots with deadly accuracy using either hand. His two-handed set shot, the standard shot of his era, was usually on the money. And he could run the floor with surprising speed.

On both ends of the court Mikan's style of play could be categorized as hard-nosed, as evidenced by the 10 broken bones he suffered and the 16 stitches he required during his playing years. As another sign of his rugged play, Mikan earned a place in the NBA record books by retiring with the most seasons (3) in which he led the league in personal fouls.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/mikan_bio.html

I think he'd translate worse than his pre shot clock individual numbers, but be a better player than Schayes, in the 60s who played in Mikan's time-span, if healthy imo.

For those interested here's an NBA.com video about Dolph Schayes, whose team won the first championship after the 24 second clock, and how it affected the evolution of the game:

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_t ... es_P2.nba/

As far as future decades, I think he's suffers knocks like other players from the leagues younger days, as players got bigger, faster and increasingly played above the rim:


http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 26,3133533

[mrsocko]

Considering his dominance in his era you have to consider him an above average player in any era. He was way above average in shooting percentage every year. And being a 7 footer with mobility and a high IQ I would expect him to be on the same level as Dirk and Nikola Jokic.

[Heej]

I imagine him being a better Prime Pau Gasol. It's been stated before and I'll say it again:

EVERY GENERATIONAL PLAYER WOULD BE A GREAT PLAYER IN ANY ERA

For you to be a generational player you have to possess some uncommon combination of functional athleticism, skill, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: IQ

The second point I want to make is that there are more generational players every decade than the ones before (90s are an outlier here due to a host of strange reasons and coincidences). Would Mikan stand out as much now as he did then? Absolutely not. Would he be likely to make an all star team? Absolutely

People underestimate the importance of IQ. JJ Reddick had the former soccer star Thierry Henry on his podcast and the 2 players he said that he sees would do well in soccer are LeBron and Curry. But curiously, it's not for their physical gifts but he said he sees it's their high IQs that would translate the most. The greats all have outlier IQs and that would help Mikan more than anything. Especially with the benefits of modern training and nutrition. With a frame like that he could be carrying a solid 270 easy

[Johnlac1]

Again, we're trying to judge how a player who learned the game under the old rules and techniques would do in a more advanced league with better, more athletic players. It's just not fair.
If you could have taken Mikan during his peak and thrust him into the the sixties, he'd be competing with guys like Chamberlain, Russell, Thurmond, and some other big, athletic centers.
But a MIkan who was eager to learn would adapt fairly well. He was more athletic than many people realize...not nearly the lumbering oaf he was depicted as by either biased or ignorant people.
There were other players as big as MIkan in those days. Mikan dominated because he was not only big and strong, he was quicker, smarter, and more skilled than the other centers. The Globetrotters were surprised at how quick Mikan was and had to gang up on him and physically beat him to win their exhbition contests where the Globies played honest ball.
Clyde Lovellette was one of the best centers in the fifties, but he couldn't beat out Mikan for starting center in Minneapolis. Lovellette was still playing decent ball in the sixties. Mikan was a better player than he was.
My guess is that with a little adjustment, Mikan could have averaged 15-18 ppg, 10-12 rbds in the sixties. Not the superstar he was in the early days of the NBA but still fairly formidable.

[dhsilv2]

According to this newspaper he measured out at 6'10 and 1/2.

If this was barefoot, as I've heard they measured in the past, that would put him at about 7 ft or more in modern shoes.

Eesh, I think you're over-estimating the thickness of your Nike soles. It doesn't add 2".

That being said, if he was indeed 6'10.5" barefoot, it may well be he'd be listed as 7'0" in the 80's or modern league (so he'd be roughly an average height center in the 80's).

Also, I think 280 is pushing it. He already had some kinda nicely sculpted legs back in the day, and it wasn't just his height, but rather his overall SIZE and strength that helped make him the dominant force he was. Take Ray Felix, for instance: one of the few centers of the early 50's actually TALLER than George Mikan, listed at 6'11"......but he apparently only weighed 220 lbs. Mikan could probably move him around the way Karl Malone was bulling Calvin Booth out of the way in the video you posted in the #16 thread.

Mikan already had a bit of a physique; I don't think weight-training is gonna slam 35! extra pounds on to him. I just don't see the frame to carry that. Maybe up to ~260-265 lbs, though.

Generally 1/2 is rounded up. So yeah no way he isn't listed at least at 7. Though that era it seemed guys were listed undersized an awful lot. West was listed 2 inches under his real height for example.

Oh and no way do I buy Hakeem was 7'0, heck I'd have to go back to my parents but I'm almost positive I have some basketball cards with him at 6'10 and I'm sure most of the older cards list under 7'0. He being a guy I know well is just the first to pop to mind of those I know I've seen consistently listed under 7.

[dhsilv2]

Not to change the subject but Alex Groza was mentioned and to me he's the most fascinating what if in nba history. 2 years before being banned, was clearly by the stats the second best player in the league. I really wish there was more on him and about him as a player.

[Johnlac1]

Not to change the subject but Alex Groza was mentioned and to me he's the most fascinating what if in nba history. 2 years before being banned, was clearly by the stats the second best player in the league. I really wish there was more on him and about him as a player.

Olympians guard and fellow UKentucky player Ralph Beard was also banned along with Groza. Beard was reputed to be maybe the fastest player in the league and was rivaling Cousy for best pg in the league.
Beard claimed that although he took the money because his family was dirt poor, he never shaved points.
Another player who would have rivaled Mikan and created more fan interest (which the NBA desperately needed at the time) was ex Oklahoma St. center Bob Kurland who reportedly outplayed Mikan a time or two in college in head to head contests.
Kurland chose to forgo playing in the new BAA later to be the NBA for a career with Phillips 66 and their semi pro team the Oilers.
The Kurland-Mikan matchups in the NBA would have been like the Russell-Chamberlain matchups of the sixties.

[dhsilv2]

Not to change the subject but Alex Groza was mentioned and to me he's the most fascinating what if in nba history. 2 years before being banned, was clearly by the stats the second best player in the league. I really wish there was more on him and about him as a player.

Olympians guard and fellow UKentucky player Ralph Beard was also banned along with Groza. Beard was reputed to be maybe the fastest player in the league and was rivaling Cousy for best pg in the league.
Beard claimed that although he took the money because his family was dirt poor, he never shaved points.
Another player who would have rivaled Mikan and created more fan interest (which the NBA desperately needed at the time) was ex Oklahoma St. center Bob Kurland who reportedly outplayed Mikan a time or two in college in head to head contests.
Kurland chose to forgo playing in the new BAA later to be the NBA for a career with Phillips 66 and their semi pro team the Oilers.
The Kurland-Mikan matchups in the NBA would have been like the Russell-Chamberlain matchups of the sixties.

I actually had a chance to meet Beard when I was rather young. He certainly had some nice stats, but Groza's are page jumping compared to peers.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'd be happy to post some newspaper clips after I'm off of work but Mikan was not 6-10 and change barefoot, he was 6-9 barefoot - I've got multiple articles from multiple years that say he's 6-9 without his sneakers on. Dwight Howard's height, so likely he'd list 6-10 still, or possibly 6-11 if his arms were long enough to the degree that he "plays bigger" (no wingspan figure is ever given though newspapers do mention he has "long arms" and to my eyes, he also looks very long-limbed). So this 6-9 height doesn't reduce how well I think he'd do, I think he had great mobility (horizontally not vertically), and looked absolutely immune to heavy contact and mean as hell when he played. The vibe Shaq gave as far as aggression goes. He worked HARD to become coordinated too. Newspaper articles just like the one that was posted that called him a lumberer are flat out wrong, and are so wrong it irritates me how an article written that close to his career got him pegged so wrong. He was everything BUT a lumberer AFTER he worked his ass off in college strictly to correct the fact that at the high school level he started out as a typical slow and clumsy big man who's ability was questionable. THAT's the story of Mikan. The lumberer that ESCAPED being stuck that way.

Young Mikan was cut from his high school team at one point, and overlooked by many due to his slow uncoordinated movements. He's given a chance at DePaul then he worked out with boxers, dancers, developed all sorts of unorthodox routines to build his strength, quickness and coordination and it all WORKED. To the point that when the Lakers played the globetrotters, the globetrotters, the most athletic team of the 1950's by FAR, were fine dealing with everyone else on the Lakers team from a physical standpoint but were stunned at how such a big man like Mikan could move so quickly and ably. He was as quick and mobile as players FAR smaller than him, yet as strong if not stronger than any other 6-9 to 7 footer that was fielded against him and the few match ups that may have ever come close in strength simply could not keep up with George's mobility.

Look at his footage:

Watch on YouTube

He's a better ball handler and more mobile with a live dribble than Wilt Chamberlain, who came after him. Hell, he's a better ball handler than most big bodied centers today despite today's lack of ball handling restrictions! He'd be bringing the ball up like DeMarcus Cousins if he played with modern rules. DeMarcus is actually not a bad comparison to Mikan, physically, assuming Mikan would have access to modern weight training. Which is probably the one thing he DIDN'T do in his era to build his body considering the stigma against it with respect to shooting touch. Mikan was 245-265 without lifting weights, he was as high as 270. This is big, really big, for a body that hasn't even begun adding muscle mass with a weight set. Mikan looks wide as a brick wall out there which is a great body type to play that position. One other thing about Mikan to bolster what I mentioned about his work ethic: look at how abidextrous he is shooting around the basket. Left handed or right handed, of any shot type. Mikan was fundamentally disciplined and worked his but off when he wasn't playing games to become that way, and maintain being that way. Mikan's got all the ingredients to do well regardless of when he's playing in my humble opinion. You can't teach work ethic, and you can't teach that body type. He can't jump high. That's about it. But who cares, a lot of big heavy guys can't jump.

I'll close my post by citing Red Aurbach, when he was asked long after Mikan had retired by similar writers to the ones that mislabeled Mikan as a lumberer. Aurbach didn't seem interested to engage in specifics but he told these writers seeking reasons to fault the ability of Mikan: "Mikan would be stick out, any time." Aurbach is a pretty good judge of talent. I think the article was written in the 1970's or 80's. So into the 1970's or 1980's, the Jabbar era, Aurbach didn't seem to buy that idea that Mikan wouldn't be in the league, but rather felt he'd still be a stand out player.

[Johnlac1]

I'd be happy to post some newspaper clips after I'm off of work but Mikan was not 6-10 and change barefoot, he was 6-9 barefoot - I've got multiple articles from multiple years that say he's 6-9 without his sneakers on. Dwight Howard's height, so likely he'd list 6-10 still, or possibly 6-11 if his arms were long enough to the degree that he "plays bigger" (no wingspan figure is ever given though newspapers do mention he has "long arms" and to my eyes, he also looks very long-limbed). So this 6-9 height doesn't reduce how well I think he'd do, I think he had great mobility (horizontally not vertically), and looked absolutely immune to heavy contact and mean as hell when he played. The vibe Shaq gave as far as aggression goes. He worked HARD to become coordinated too. Newspaper articles just like the one that was posted that called him a lumberer are flat out wrong, and are so wrong it irritates me how an article written that close to his career got him pegged so wrong. He was everything BUT a lumberer AFTER he worked his ass off in college strictly to correct the fact that at the high school level he started out as a typical slow and clumsy big man who's ability was questionable. THAT's the story of Mikan. The lumberer that ESCAPED being stuck that way.

Young Mikan was cut from his high school team at one point, and overlooked by many due to his slow uncoordinated movements. He's given a chance at DePaul then he worked out with boxers, dancers, developed all sorts of unorthodox routines to build his strength, quickness and coordination and it all WORKED. To the point that when the Lakers played the globetrotters, the globetrotters, the most athletic team of the 1950's by FAR, were fine dealing with everyone else on the Lakers team from a physical standpoint but were stunned at how such a big man like Mikan could move so quickly and ably. He was as quick and mobile as players FAR smaller than him, yet as strong if not stronger than any other 6-9 to 7 footer that was fielded against him and the few match ups that may have ever come close in strength simply could not keep up with George's mobility.

Look at his footage:

Watch on YouTube

He's a better ball handler and more mobile with a live dribble than Wilt Chamberlain, who came after him. Hell, he's a better ball handler than most big bodied centers today despite today's lack of ball handling restrictions! He'd be bringing the ball up like DeMarcus Cousins if he played with modern rules. DeMarcus is actually not a bad comparison to Mikan, physically, assuming Mikan would have access to modern weight training. Which is probably the one thing he DIDN'T do in his era to build his body considering the stigma against it with respect to shooting touch. Mikan was 245-265 without lifting weights, he was as high as 270. This is big, really big, for a body that hasn't even begun adding muscle mass with a weight set. Mikan looks wide as a brick wall out there which is a great body type to play that position. One other thing about Mikan to bolster what I mentioned about his work ethic: look at how abidextrous he is shooting around the basket. Left handed or right handed, of any shot type. Mikan was fundamentally disciplined and worked his but off when he wasn't playing games to become that way, and maintain being that way. Mikan's got all the ingredients to do well regardless of when he's playing in my humble opinion. You can't teach work ethic, and you can't teach that body type. He can't jump high. That's about it. But who cares, a lot of big heavy guys can't jump.

I'll close my post by citing Red Aurbach, when he was asked long after Mikan had retired by similar writers to the ones that mislabeled Mikan as a lumberer. Aurbach didn't seem interested to engage in specifics but he told these writers seeking reasons to fault the ability of Mikan: "Mikan would be stick out, any time." Aurbach is a pretty good judge of talent. I think the article was written in the 1970's or 80's. So into the 1970's or 1980's, the Jabbar era, Aurbach didn't seem to buy that idea that Mikan wouldn't be in the league, but rather felt he'd still be a stand out player.

One little side note about Mikan. When he was a youth, he won the marbles championship of his county and played football and hockey as well. I think like a lot of tall kids he maybe grew a little too rapidly and it took him awhile ( a lot of work helped) to get his coordination.
But you can't really teach a lot of athleticism like speed, and what struck me about Mikan as I looked at the clips on YT was how fast he could get down the court and break to the basket. That's why the quotes about him being slow and lumbering looked false to me. You can't be a lumbering oaf and dominate a league for your entire career.
Apart from his last year when he came out of retirement, the only break in the Lakers title run was in '51 when Mikan severely hurt his ankle during the playofffs which cut down his mobility terribly.
It's too bad Mikan retired in his early thirties as it would have been interesting to see him play against young Bill Russell.