RealGM Top 100 List #20

[penbeast0]

Then make that case the way ushvinder has been doing. I have no problem with Barkley going in here although I favor a few people over him; he's still top 30 in my mind, but there are legitimate questions about him and I am looking for good explanations.

[lorak]

Make of this what you will, but it seems a clear pattern of opposing PG's performing well offensively against Nash

On how many possessions Nash guarded them?

[tsherkin]

I vote Barkley. Mikan has no portability and faced the inferior competition most say Wilt faced, and declined with the widened lane.

The trouble is you don't have any reason to vote Barkley over:

Ewing
Pettit
Pippen
Wade
Frazier
Nash

Sure I do. I value Barkley over pippen for playoff performance, over Pettit for offensive value, same deal for Wade. I I don't find either of Pippen or Pettit compelling options. Wade, Nash and Frazier are intriguing options, but I like Barkley's offense better than the totality of Wade's game.

Indon't care about the leadership argument; to me, it's not that meaningful. I respect that this is not true for you, but it factors only weakly into my examination of these players.

As far as Nash/Frazier, I'm fuzzier there. I care less about Frazier's defense than I do about the gap in their offensive games, though Walt was obviously quite good. I still think the difference is enough. As far as Nash is concerned, the offensive gap isn't there, so the value I'm looking at comes from positional versatility and rebounding. Nash will very likely be my next focal candidate after Chuck, though, and after that, I am going to think long and hard over everyone in play.

[Jim Naismith]

Reposting by request: Walt Frazier

PoY shares
Walt Frazier 2.06
Chris Paul 1.93
Steve Nash 1.29

What Frazier's case against Chris Paul?
CP3 is the closest point guard to Frazier in terms of PoY shares.

[Texas Chuck]

Make of this what you will, but it seems a clear pattern of opposing PG's performing well offensively against Nash

On how many possessions Nash guarded them?

Feel free to bring that data if you have it. And if he's not guarding him its still a problem for his team because then someone else had to guard them because their starting PG couldn't and the team was getting abused by the PGs.

Again, you can decide to not put weight on it if you want. I'm just supplying some data that suggests PG defense(ergo Nash) was detrimental to the Mavs and Suns.

[Jaivl]

What Frazier's case against Chris Paul?

Don't agree with the reasoning, but this is a really interesting question.

Frazier is a better defensive player I guess, but Paul is great in that end too. And I doubt Frazier had the same impact on offense Paul does. Playoff impact, maybe?

[Texas Chuck]

Well Frazier played nearly 50% more minutes than Paul has so far and double his playoff total so he definitely has some longevity advantages. His rebounding is noticably better and while Paul makes all-D teams Im not convinced he's a great man defender. Great ballhawk for sure, but I think Frazier was probably a better defensive player.

[DQuinn1575]

What Frazier's case against Chris Paul?

Don't agree with the reasoning, but this is a really interesting question.

Frazier is a better defensive player I guess, but Paul is great in that end too. And I doubt Frazier had the same impact on offense Paul does. Playoff impact, maybe?

At this point playoff impact- Walt was best playoff performer on 2 title teams plus a runner-up




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[DQuinn1575]

I vote Barkley. Mikan has no portability and faced the inferior competition most say Wilt faced, and declined with the widened lane.

The trouble is you don't have any reason to vote Barkley over:

Ewing
Pettit
Pippen
Wade
Frazier
Nash

?

Personally I can take pippen off my list but still a lot of guys to consider and I don't have a definitive choice yet. I'm thinking Mikan/Pettit/wade/ Barkley all have cases I cant easily dismiss, so I will go back and look at the numbers.



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[Basketballefan]

Paul doesnt belong in the discussion yet. His longevity and success arent up to par with the other candidates. I don't blame him for his lack of playoff success, but i feel he could've done more.

[lorak]

Make of this what you will, but it seems a clear pattern of opposing PG's performing well offensively against Nash

On how many possessions Nash guarded them?

Feel free to bring that data if you have it. And if he's not guarding him its still a problem for his team because then someone else had to guard them because their starting PG couldn't and the team was getting abused by the PGs.

Again, you can decide to not put weight on it if you want. I'm just supplying some data that suggests PG defense(ergo Nash) was detrimental to the Mavs and Suns.

There's no "ergo" in that, unless you will provide evidence showing how often Nash was actually defending opposing PGs or that "hiding" him on Bowen or opposing SGs hurt his teams defense. But I think that I agree with your general conclusion - that Nash's defense was a problem for DAL/PHO in the playoffs. In fact, I'm looking at his on/off playoffs splits and I'm shocked how bad he looks:

Code: Select all

year   MIN off   ORTG on   ORTG off   DRTG on   DRTG off   DRTG net   OVERALL net               
2001   110      104,0      106,4      110,0      105,0   5,0      -7,4
2002   065      112,6      106,7      108,2      129,0   -20,8      26,7
2003   241      111,4      106,4      112,5      106,0   6,5      -1,5
2004   045      101,3      105,2      102,8      94,9   7,9      -11,8
2005   114      118,7      113,7      114,3      108,8   5,5      -0,5
2006   182      116,5      104,9      110,6      119,3   -8,7      20,3
2007   116      112,5      107,1      105,8      105,2   0,6      4,8
2008   067      105,6      100,0      110,2      97,6   12,6      -7,0
2010   229      120,6      114,2      114,8      108,5   6,3      0,1






Sure, "off" in playoffs always deals with small sample issue, but here we see year by year consistency - he improves offense and defense with him usually was much worse than without him. What's surprising, is that overall his net impact in playoffs doesn't look so great as in regular season. Five years with negative (!) on/off, one slightly positive (0.1), one ok (4.8) and only two really great. I wonder how KG/Nash guys will comment that, because they were also using playoffs on/off in favor of KG, so can't ignore it now.

[Jim Naismith]

Vote: Bob Pettit



High Peak and Prime

2 MVPs
10 consecutive years on the All-NBA First Team

Great Scoring and Rebounding

peak: 31.1 ppg / 18.7 rpg

career: 26.2 ppg / 16.2 rpg

#7 in career PPG (beats Kobe, Oscar)
#3 in career RPG (behind only Wilt and Russell)

Led Hawks to NBA championship (only one in franchise history)

beat Celtics in the Russell Era, the only other team to do so was the 1967 Sixers led by Wilt

Best Finals game ever?

— Game 6 against Celtics: 50 points, 19 rebounds
— scored 19 of Hawks' final 21 points, including final basket to clinch championship

Among the Best

Even against other big names, Bob Pettit does well.

Career PER


1. Michael Jordan 27.91
2. LeBron James 27.79
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain 26.13
6. Chris Paul 25.59
7. Bob Pettit 25.35
8. Dwyane Wade 25.29
9. Neil Johnston 24.69
10. Charles Barkley 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 24.58
12. Tim Duncan 24.56



Career PoY shares


11. Karl Malone 4.649
12. Bob Pettit 4.466
13. Oscar Robertson 4.413
14. Kobe Bryant 4.380
15. Hakeem Olajuwon 4.380
16. Jerry West 3.795
17. Kevin Garnett 3.571
18. Moses Malone 3.478
19. Dwyane Wade 2.601
20. David Robinson 2.431



PoY shares (weighted 6 : 2 : 1.5 : 1.2 : 1 to give #1 more weight)


8. Shaquille O'Neal 4.58
9. Magic Johnson 4.52
10. Bob Pettit 3.42
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 3.29
12. Julius Erving 3.20
13. Jerry West 2.90
14. Moses Malone 2.82
15. Kobe Bryant 2.74

[G35]

On how many possessions Nash guarded them?

Feel free to bring that data if you have it. And if he's not guarding him its still a problem for his team because then someone else had to guard them because their starting PG couldn't and the team was getting abused by the PGs.

Again, you can decide to not put weight on it if you want. I'm just supplying some data that suggests PG defense(ergo Nash) was detrimental to the Mavs and Suns.

There's no "ergo" in that, unless you will provide evidence showing how often Nash was actually defending opposing PGs or that "hiding" him on Bowen or opposing SGs hurt his teams defense. But I think that I agree with your general conclusion - that Nash's defense was a problem for DAL/PHO in the playoffs. In fact, I'm looking at his on/off playoffs splits and I'm shocked how bad he looks:

Code: Select all

year   MIN off   ORTG on   ORTG off   DRTG on   DRTG off   DRTG net   OVERALL net               
2001   110      104,0      106,4      110,0      105,0   5,0      -7,4
2002   065      112,6      106,7      108,2      129,0   -20,8      26,7
2003   241      111,4      106,4      112,5      106,0   6,5      -1,5
2004   045      101,3      105,2      102,8      94,9   7,9      -11,8
2005   114      118,7      113,7      114,3      108,8   5,5      -0,5
2006   182      116,5      104,9      110,6      119,3   -8,7      20,3
2007   116      112,5      107,1      105,8      105,2   0,6      4,8
2008   067      105,6      100,0      110,2      97,6   12,6      -7,0
2010   229      120,6      114,2      114,8      108,5   6,3      0,1






Sure, "off" in playoffs always deals with small sample issue, but here we see year by year consistency - he improves offense and defense with him usually was much worse than without him. What's surprising, is that overall his net impact in playoffs doesn't look so great as in regular season. Five years with negative (!) on/off, one slightly positive (0.1), one ok (4.8) and only two really great. I wonder how KG/Nash guys will comment that, because they were also using playoffs on/off in favor of KG, so can't ignore it now.

I wonder that all the time. It's one of the problems I have when a metric is used in favor of one player and ignored when evaluating another player......

[lukekarts]

Vote: Bob Pettit



2 MVPs

10 consecutive years on the All-NBA First Team

career average: 26.2 ppg / 16.2 rpg

lead Hawks to NBA championship (only one in franchise history)

the only other team to beat Celtics in the Russell Era was the 1967 Wilt-led Sixers

Best Finals game ever?

— Game 6 against Celtics: 50 points, 19 rebounds
— scored 19 of Hawks' final 21 points, including final basket to clinch championship

Career PoY shares:

11. Karl Malone 4.649
12. Bob Pettit 4.466
13. Oscar Robertson 4.413
14. Kobe Bryant 4.380
15. Hakeem Olajuwon 4.380
16. Jerry West 3.795
17. Kevin Garnett 3.571
18. Moses Malone 3.478
19. Dwyane Wade 2.601
20. David Robinson 2.431

PoY shares (weighted 6 : 2 : 1.5 : 1.2 : 1 to give #1 more weight)

8. Shaquille O'Neal 4.58
9. Magic Johnson 4.52
10. Bob Pettit 3.42
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 3.29
12. Julius Erving 3.20
13. Jerry West 2.90
14. Moses Malone 2.82
15. Kobe Bryant 2.74

Pettit certainly has things going for him, this run being the particular highlight. I'm curious as to why people feel Barkley is the better option at this point?

[Clyde Frazier]

Spoiler:

Vote: Bob Pettit



2 MVPs

10 consecutive years on the All-NBA First Team

career average: 26.2 ppg / 16.2 rpg

lead Hawks to NBA championship (only one in franchise history)

the only other team to beat Celtics in the Russell Era was the 1967 Wilt-led Sixers

Best Finals game ever?

— Game 6 against Celtics: 50 points, 19 rebounds
— scored 19 of Hawks' final 21 points, including final basket to clinch championship

Career PoY shares:

11. Karl Malone 4.649
12. Bob Pettit 4.466
13. Oscar Robertson 4.413
14. Kobe Bryant 4.380
15. Hakeem Olajuwon 4.380
16. Jerry West 3.795
17. Kevin Garnett 3.571
18. Moses Malone 3.478
19. Dwyane Wade 2.601
20. David Robinson 2.431

PoY shares (weighted 6 : 2 : 1.5 : 1.2 : 1 to give #1 more weight)

8. Shaquille O'Neal 4.58
9. Magic Johnson 4.52
10. Bob Pettit 3.42
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 3.29
12. Julius Erving 3.20
13. Jerry West 2.90
14. Moses Malone 2.82
15. Kobe Bryant 2.74

Pettit certainly has things going for him, this run being the particular highlight. I'm curious as to why people feel Barkley is the better option at this point?

I'm happy to see pettit in the conversation, as he sometimes doesn't even get mentioned when discussing the best PFs of all time. He really paved the way for the modern day PF (modern as in 70s and later, heh). That said, I don't think he's a given over barkley as we try to evaluate what he did in his era relative to other eras. I will be voting for barkley, so i'll make a more detailed comparison in that post.

[DannyNoonan1221]

Charles Barkley per100 career:

30.2-15.9-5.4-61.2TS%-24.8USG% on 36.7 MPG

vs

29.9-19.5-3.0-62.3TS%-20.3% on 35.5 MPG

Obviously these are just numbers and there isn't much context but this is someone who has had very little to no attention paid to him. I may have given it away in my last thread but wanted to see what people thought before they saw the name.

Also, in no way am I saying I am voting for the unnamed player. Just came across it while trying to figure out who I wanted to vote for here.

[colts18]

There's no "ergo" in that, unless you will provide evidence showing how often Nash was actually defending opposing PGs or that "hiding" him on Bowen or opposing SGs hurt his teams defense. But I think that I agree with your general conclusion - that Nash's defense was a problem for DAL/PHO in the playoffs. In fact, I'm looking at his on/off playoffs splits and I'm shocked how bad he looks:

Code: Select all

year   MIN off   ORTG on   ORTG off   DRTG on   DRTG off   DRTG net   OVERALL net               
2001   110      104,0      106,4      110,0      105,0   5,0      -7,4
2002   065      112,6      106,7      108,2      129,0   -20,8      26,7
2003   241      111,4      106,4      112,5      106,0   6,5      -1,5
2004   045      101,3      105,2      102,8      94,9   7,9      -11,8
2005   114      118,7      113,7      114,3      108,8   5,5      -0,5
2006   182      116,5      104,9      110,6      119,3   -8,7      20,3
2007   116      112,5      107,1      105,8      105,2   0,6      4,8
2008   067      105,6      100,0      110,2      97,6   12,6      -7,0
2010   229      120,6      114,2      114,8      108,5   6,3      0,1






Sure, "off" in playoffs always deals with small sample issue, but here we see year by year consistency - he improves offense and defense with him usually was much worse than without him. What's surprising, is that overall his net impact in playoffs doesn't look so great as in regular season. Five years with negative (!) on/off, one slightly positive (0.1), one ok (4.8) and only two really great. I wonder how KG/Nash guys will comment that, because they were also using playoffs on/off in favor of KG, so can't ignore it now.

Playoff on/off has very little meaning unless you think Dirk has had little impact in the playoffs over the past 14 years, Lebron has had minimal impact in the past 2 postseasons, or that Shaq in 2001 had a negative playoff impact.

[Jim Naismith]

I'm happy to see pettit in the conversation, as he sometimes doesn't even get mentioned when discussing the best PFs of all time. He really paved the way for the modern day PF (modern as in 70s and later, heh). That said, I don't think he's a given over barkley as we try to evaluate what he did in his era relative to other eras. I will be voting for barkley, so i'll make a more detailed comparison in that post.

A quick and perhaps naive comparison. . .

Barkley was the MVP once, Pettit was MVP twice.

Barkley was never 1st or 2nd best player (by PoY voting).
Pettit was 1st twice (over Russell) and 2nd twice.

Pettit also led his team to the title, whereas Barkley is ringless.

[HeartBreakKid]

Paul doesnt belong in the discussion yet. His longevity and success arent up to par with the other candidates. I don't blame him for his lack of playoff success, but i feel he could've done more.

He's had a 6-7 season prime, with only one of them where he missed an extreme portion of the season, and in those seasons he's pretty much always been the best point guard or close too it (and often times when he is considered the best point guard, it seems to be undisputable). Not only that, but the majority of his prime seasons he is widely considered to be the 3rd best player in the game, usually with clear separation from the 4th best player.

Frazier by contrast had a full career, and only has had 8, maybe 9 seasons where he was a star, not a big difference if one actually thinks Chris Paul was a better player.

Plus, I think Wade will likely go in soon, and while Wade has more games played because he started his career earlier, he's missed more games than Paul has, and there are a lot of seasons where Paul was a better player than Wade (basically every season since 2011).

[Basketballefan]

I'm happy to see pettit in the conversation, as he sometimes doesn't even get mentioned when discussing the best PFs of all time. He really paved the way for the modern day PF (modern as in 70s and later, heh). That said, I don't think he's a given over barkley as we try to evaluate what he did in his era relative to other eras. I will be voting for barkley, so i'll make a more detailed comparison in that post.

A quick and perhaps naive comparison. . .

Barkley was the MVP once, Pettit was MVP twice.

Barkley was never 1st or 2nd best player (by PoY voting).
Pettit was 1st twice (over Russell) and 2nd twice.

Pettit also led his team to the title, whereas Barkley is ringless.

I think it's a bit foolish to think the competition from the 50s to early 60s compares to that of the 90s. Not to mention Petit only had to win 2 rounds to win his championship.

I think you can do better than use measures such as POY voting and ring counting especially without giving any type of context.