RealGM Top 100 List #37

[lorak]

I don't remember who wrote it (definitely someone from ISH), but here's a lot of great information about KAJ vs Thurmond:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar V.S. Nate Thurmond H2H game by game


1969-1970

Milwaukee Bucks(56-26):
69’-70’ was KAJ's (or Lew Alcindor's) season début, shooting .518 averaged 28.8 points (which’s right after Jerry West’s 31.2pts) and 14.5 rebounds(behind Hayes and Unseld), along with 4.1 assists. In his début game in NBA, Alcindor scored 29 points and hauled in 12 rebounds and blocked three shots against the Pistons. With KAJ's help, Milwaukee Bucks went to 56-26 from last season's 27-55, Finished 2nd in NBA Eastern Division. They ran over Phila in 5 games in the first round but lost to NYK in EDF.

San Francisco Warriors(30-52):
I’d like to start by introducing some background info of Nate’s injury in the previous 1967-68 season; Nate Thurmond missed a total of 31 regular season games due to multiple injuries. Thurmond broke two bones in his left hand, and then a broken wrist, and then his knee was injured during the Warriors’ 131-120 victory over Phila, his knee was hurt so badly that had to perform a surgery for a torn ligament in his right knee in Jan 20 and he missed the rest of the regular season and all the games in playoffs.
After sidelined for a few months due to knee injury, Thurmond came back in the 1968-69 season, Thurmond missed 11 games last season with assorted injuries and Warriors were helpless without him. At 6-11, he is one of game's top centers. Despite all the injuries, he still averaged 21.5 points and 19.7 rebounds a game last season(at the age of 27). The retirement of Rudy LaRusso hurt Warriors badly, Rick Barry was in the law-suits problem and didn't come back to play until 72-73 season. Without LaRusso and Barry, Nate Thurmond had to carry this club on his broad shoulders. San Francisco Warriors went only 30-52 finished 6th in WD, dropped 11 wins compare to last season. In this season of 69’-70’, at the age of 28, Nate averaged 21.9 points(shooting .414) 17.7 rebounds and 3.5 assists, but he only played 43 games due to knee surgery, his second knee surgery in three years, put Thurmond out of action for the second half of last season. The Warriros were battling for a playoff berth when Nate was injured. Without him, they won only nine of their last 36 games and and tumbled to a sixth-place finish.…

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Début de matchup between KAJ and Nate the Great:
Sat, Oct 25, 1969 Milwaukee Bucks@San Francisco Warriors: L 104-118
Alcindor: 16pts, 5rbs; Thurmond: 10pts, 17rbs
The Warriors, winning their third straight, played inspired bail and were given a big boost by newly acquired Jerry Lucas, ... In the duel between the Warriors' Nate Thurmond and Lew Alcindor, Alcindor won the scoring battle, 16-10, but the San Francisco center had a 17-5 rebound edge. Jerry Lucas had only 10pts but grabbed 22 rebounds. In the previous game, Lew Alcindor dropped 23 points and 20 rebounds on Wilt Chamberlain. After his 16 points 5 rebounds nightmare in the defeat in San Francisco against Thurmond, in the next game Lew Alcindor scored 28 points(13-23) and 12 rebounds against Phoenix
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Sun, Nov 16, 1969 Milwaukee Bucks-San Francisco Warriors:W 129-123(OT)
Alcindor: 28pts(10-25), 16rbs, 8ast; Thurmond: 26pts(11-23), 15rbs, 4ast
Alcindor was pleased about his performance and said afterward "I wanted badly to play well after that first game out there. The team played a terrible game that night, and I played a terrible game."
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Tue, Nov 18, 1969 Milwaukee Bucks@San Francisco Warriors:L 110-127
Alcindor: 21pts(7-24), 15rbs, 2ast; Thurmond: 26pts(10-17), 19rbs, 4ast
"Probably the biggest reason the Bucks bombed out was that Lew Alcindor was thoroughly outplayed by Nate Thurmond, just as he had been in the Warriors' 118-104 victory here Oct.25.
Alcindor missed his first nine shots, and only a flock of meaningless baskets after the outcome was determined enabled him to finish with 21 points. Thanks to Alcindor's late flurry, Thurmond outscored him by only five points. Final rebounding figures were fairly close, 19 for Thurmond, 15 for Alcindor. But a far more accurate gauge of Thurmond's superiority is contained in statistics of the first half, in those first 24 minutes, Thurmond outscored Alcindor, 21-7; outrebounded him, 13-5, and outshot him, .727 to .100. Thurmond made 8 of 11 shots, Alcindor 1 of 10."
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Fri, Dec 12, 1969 Milwaukee Bucks-San Francisco Warriors:W 123-109
Alcindor: 13pts(5-14), 15rbs; Thurmond attended the funeral of his grandmother in Akron, Ohio, Friday.
The Warriors doubled teamed Lew and this wasn't one of the better night for Lew who sat out the last 14 minutes and ended with a season low 13pts. The Warriors' reserve center Dale Schlueter, who scored 15 points, thought that it was a matter of the Buck center(Lew Alcindor) "not getting up for me, with Thurmond not around. He probably wasn't up mentally to play me as hard as he would Nate. Don't get me wrong -- he's a tremendous ball player and a hard worker all the time. But it's got to be more of a challenge going against Thurmond."
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Sun, Jan 18, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks-San Francisco Warriors:W 123-107
Alcindor: 23pts, 17rbs; Thurmond went surgery Sunday and may retire(at the age of 30)
Nate Thurmond underwent surgery on his right knee(again...). There is no question that Thurmond is finished for the rest of the season, earlier in the day, before the surgery to repair torn cartilage, Thurmond reportedly said he was thinking about quitting.
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Wed, Feb 18, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks@San Francisco Warriors:W 109-102
Alcindor: 26pts; Thurmond was sideline due to surgery
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Nate the Great is the major reason Warriors opponents have their worst team field goal percentage against San Francisco. "There are a lot of great players in the NBA, and plenty of great big men -- but the one toughest guy I've had to play against so far has been Nate Thurmond," was the way Alcindor put it. KAJ only scored 21.6 points and 12 rebounds against Thurmond in regular season of 69’-70’ including the 16 points and 5 rebounds in their first matchup and not a single game scored 30+ against Warriors but two games below 20 points.


1970-1971
Milwaukee Bucks(66-16):
KAJ has more help this season with quality players like Lucius Allen and Bob Boozer, along with Dandridge and McGlocklin, etc., but the main difference is Milwaukee finally had a good brain—Oscar Robertson, who orchestrated and led Milwaukee to 66 wins and a Champion.
Lew Alcindor gets $280,000 a year, which comes to roughly $5,400 a week. Bucks was averaged 96% capacity attendance at home in 70-71 season.
MVP voting: Alcindor drew 133 first place votes to six for his nearest rival - Jerry West. What made it so personally gratifying to hom was that the voting was done by all the NBA players.
In the 70’-71’ season, KAJ averaged 31.7 points(shooting .577) and 16 rebounds(ranked the fourth after Wilt, Unseld and Hayes) along with 3.3 assists. KAJ crowned MVP and scoring title.


San Francisco Warriors(41-41):
Al Attles, one of the best defense player in the Warriors, was named as player-coach, with the same key rosters, Warriors went 41 wins and made playoffs but lost to Milwaukee Bucks in 5 games.
Nate Thurmond talked about this second comeback of his from second knee surgery within three years. "Last winter, laying in the hospital bed after the operation, I was dead serious about quitting," he said "I was depressed. I kept thinking about the therapy again, strengthening the muscles, all the running I'd have to do. I asked myself if playing pro basketball was worth all of that again. At the time, I didn't think it was. I was looking for the easy way out, I guess." Thurmond said coming back this season is no different for him than the comeback he made last season abbreviated as it may have been. "Last year, I might've been a little reckless. A little too eager to get things working again. This year, I'm taking things slower. I'm more cautious. If the knee goes again, things won't be looking too good for me. I've gotta be a little careful."
In the 70’-71’ season, Thurmond averaged 20 points(shooting .445) 13.8 rebounds and 3.1 assists and played all of 82 games.

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Mon, Nov 16, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 119-100
Alcindor: 31pts; Thurmond: 25pts
Lew Alcindor scored 31 points and Bob Dandridge added 30 tonight in leading the Milwaukee Bucks to a 119-100 victory over the San Francisco Warriors
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Sat, Nov 21, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 127-102
Alcindor: 29pts Thurmond: 30pts
This is two games away from Nate Thurmond passed Wilt Chamberlain's SG Warriors' team scoring record, Milwaukee Bucks limited San Francisco to only points in the second period, the Bucks rolled to their 13th consecutive victory. Alcindor and Thurmond waged a stirring duel in the first quarter. Alcindor scored 14 points, including 8 in a row late in the period in a spree which he climaxed with a spectacular driving stuff shot. Thurmond, called by Alcindor "the best center I've ever played against," countered with 12, of which most were from medium or long range. Alcindor settled for a single field goal in the second quarter and finished the half with 16 points while Thurmond ran his first half total to 18pts and finished a game high 30 points.
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Sat, Dec 26, 1970 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 131-111
Alcindor: 34pts; Thurmond: 25pts
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Sat, Feb 6, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 111-85
Alcindor: 17pts(8-19), 11rbs, 3ast; Thurmond: 9pts(4-17), 8rbs, 2ast
Lew Alcindor scored only 17points, but was a dominant factor in the game, not only held his rival center, Nate Thurmond, in check, he blocked shots by other Warriors and generally intimidated the San Francisco offense.
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Sat, Feb 20, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 104-96
Alcindor: 25pts; Thurmond: 30pts
Warrior Nate Thurmond led everybody with 30 while Lew had 25. Jerry Lucas was held to seven.. In the Bucks' previous victory over seattle, Lew Alcindor sank 18 of 29 shots, scored 42 points 29 rebounds 9 shot blocks and 7 assists.. after this game against Thurmond, Alcindor scored 36 points and 26 rebounds on Phoenix... as usual, Lew always had big stats when not battling with Thurmond.
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Tue, Feb 23, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks San Francisco Warriors: W 118-107
Alcindor: 25pts(12-27), 16rbs; Thurmond: 24pts(10-22), 9rbs
Big O scored game high 26pts and passed Guy Rodgers' assists records.
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Playoffs:Game 1 , Sat, Mar 27, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ San Francisco Warriors: W 107-96
Alcindor: 25pts, 10rbs; Thurmond: 19pts
With Oscar Robertson scoring 31 points(14-23) along with 9 assists and 7 rebounds, and Lew Alcindor 25 points and 10 rebounds in 38 minutes, Thurmond 19pts, Jerry Lucas 15 points, Mullins led the Warriors with 30pts.
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Game 2, Mon, Mar 29, 1971 San Francisco Warriors: W 104-90
Alcindor: 26pts; Thurmond: 18pts
Lew Alcindor 26pts, Dandridge added 21, Oscar 15pts, SFW hitting a miserable 25% from the floor in the first quarter, Thurmond led SFW with 18pts, Lucas 8pts,
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Game 3, Tue, Mar 30, 1971 San Francisco Warriors: W 114-102
Alcindor: 33pts Thurmond: 23pts
It was the 12th victory in a row by the bucks over the Warriors over two seasons, Lew Alcindor of Miwaukee topped all scorers with 33 and Jerry Lucas had 25 points and 20 rebounds for SanFrancisco
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Game 4, Thu, Apr 1, 1971 @ San Francisco Warriors: L 104-106
Alcindor: 32pts(11-25), 21rbs, 2ast Thurmond: 17pts(7-16), 12rbs, 5ast
Lew Alcindor and Jerry Lucas each scored 32 points to share the game's high scoring honors. Joe Ellis' lucky 40-foot jump shot ended 12 consecutive losses to Milwaukee.
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Lew Alcindor averaged 26.6 points against Thurmond in the regular season, and 27.8 points in the playoffs. But he finally had four games scored 30+ points against Warriors, two in the regular and the other two in the playoffs, and one game below 20 points.


1971-1972

Milwaukee Bucks(63-19):
This season is KAJ’s absolute scoring peak season, he played 81 games shooting .574 and averaging 34.8 points, which gave him the scoring title, 6pts more than the very second scorer Archibald 28.2pts, KAJ also averaged 16.6 rebounds which’s third behind Wilt and Unseld (the fourth is Thurmond’s 16.1rbs), and 4.6 assists, shooting .574, he won his second MVP award. Bucks finished with 63wins and killed GS Warriors in 5 games (as usual) in the playoffs but lost to Lakers which led by Wilt and won the title.

Golden State Warrirors(51-31):
Attles focused on coaching this season and Warriros sent away Jerry Lucas, but Thurmond and Mullins were still in the team, Warriors finished 2nd in the pacific division with some new bloods’ help, the former New Yorker Cazzie Russell erupted to average 21.4pts and 5.4rbs with 3.1ast, Clyde Lee averaged 14.5 rebounds plus 8.1pts per game, along with some other quality new comer from Portland Barnett also had double digit, Warriors won 10 more games than last season. Thurmond averaged 21.4pts(shooting .432) 16.1rbs and 2.9ast in this season.

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Sat, Nov 20, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 100-107
KAJ: 17pts(7-14), 23rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 6pts(1-9), 15rbs, 4ast
KAJ was limited to only 17pts by Thurmond, as usual, KAJ had big game stats before and after battling with Thurmond: in the previous game, Kareem Jabbar's two free throws with 6 seconds remaining tonight gave the Milwaukee Bucks a hardearned 108-107 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics It was the Bucks 10th straight. Jabbar tied the game high score with Spencer Haywood with 36 points and outrebounded Haywood 23 rebounds to 19 rebounds. In the next game, KAJ poured 39 points on Wilt Chamberlain and grabbed 17rbs(Wilt had 26rbs).
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Tue, Nov 30, 1971 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 103-106
KAJ: 30pts, 24rbs; Thurmond missed the game due to injured hand
Jabbar, who committed four fouls in the first half, led Milwaukee with 30 points but missed two free throws with left and the score 101-101 The Bucks played without Oscar Robertson, who had the flu, while Warrior center Nate Thurmond missed another game with an injured hand, Thurmond suffered a 10-inch gash on his right hand slamming into the backboards in the third period in previous game against Phila.
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Tue, Feb 1, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 108-97
KAJ: 21pts(10-24),11rbs, 5ast; Thurmond: 18pts(4-11), 20rbs, 1ast
Big O beat Warriors with season high of 33pts(14-20), including a 17 points blast that blew the game open in the fourth quarter, plus 9ast and 9rbs, Robertson simply couldn't miss down the stretch, and to cap his performance he threw in a 30 ft shot as the 24 second clock ran out in the closing minute. This is the first time that Big O played against Warriors this season since they required Curtis Perry, who snagged 9rbs and blocked 4 shots. Thurmond did a remarkable job against Jabbar, he played the Bucks' supercenter alone, which is almost unheard of, yet held him to 21pts, 10 of them in the last quarter, moreover, the Warrior veteran had a 14-11 edge in rebounds. KAJ has scored "only" 38pts in two games this season against Thurmond. BTW, Dandridge had 18pts 13rbs against Joe Ellis whom claimed by Dandridge that he finally found somebody as skinny as he was, although he didn't look very skinny to me..
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Sat, Feb 12, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 123-100
KAJ: 34pts; Thurmond: 25pts
This game is the first time that KAJ scored 30+ on Thurmond this season, total the third time in regular season in his career. In the previous game, KAJ poured 37pts, outscored Jerry Lucas who played as center as Reed's absence, Bucks was killed by Monroe and Frazier who each had 21pts. I want to add a sidenote here: Bucks was killed by Knicks again, as usual, Bucks were 2-6 against NYK in regular since Big O on board even Robertson helped Bucks to a 114-29 regular season record and a champion last year... Bucks were 4-16 in regular and 1-4 in playoffs against NYK.
After battling with Thurmond in this game, in the next game, KAJ had big stats as usual, poured 51pts on Boston Celtics, hitting on 64% of his shots and dominated the board with 17 rebounds over Dave Cowens' 22pts and 11rbs. KAJ averaged 44.8pts against Celtics in 4 games, again, as I said, a huge difference compare with his 24pts average in three games against Thurmond this season. And again, this is KAJ’s scoring peak season by averaging 34.8pts per game, somehow he scored 10pts lower than his average when against Thurmond..
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Playoffs:
Game 1, Tue, Mar 28, 1972 Golden State Warriors: L 106-117
KAJ: 28pts, 15rbs; Thurmond: 22pts, 20rbs
Thurmond, the big man who plays Kareem tougher than anybody in the league, was good on 10 out of 23 for 22 points, and hauled down 20 rebounds gave Golden State a 53-45 margin in rebounds. Kareem was 13 of 29 for 28 points but didn't dominage the boards with his 15 rebounds, Thurmond forced Jabbar away from the basket so Lee can out reound Perry as he is 6ft-10 against Perry 6ft-7, Lee had 16 rebounds more than twice as many as any other Buck. Jim "Crazy Horse" Barnett scored a game high of 30pts and Mullins scored 29pts.
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Game 2, Thu, Mar 30, 1972 Golden State Warriors: W 118-93 KAJ: 25pts(12-27), 22rbs; Thurmond: 32pts, 18rbs
Thurmond paced the Warriors with 32 points and 18 rebounds, but Cazzie Russell was 2nd highest scorer with 16 points. the only other double figurer was Jim Barnett(30pts in openening game 1) with 10. Kareem led the charge with 25 points(12-27) and 22 rebounds and 9 assists, Oscar sank 8 of 14 shots for 17 points and 9 assists. Bob Dandridge added 21 points, Lucius Allen 14 and Wally Jones 12.
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Game 3, Sat, Apr 1, 1972 @ Golden State Warriors: W 122-94
KAJ: 23pts(10-26), 16rbs, 5ast; Thurmond: 21pts(10-24), 21rbs, 2ast
The Bucks played their best defense of the year, they held Russel and Mullins 6 or 8 points below their average. Big O scored 20pts 9rbs 14ast, Perry provided 14rbs. Thurmond topped GS with 21 points, Barnett had 18 points but only scored 4pts in the second-half; KAJ scored 23 points and tied with Andria, Lucius Allen scored 21 points as Bucks won 122:94
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Game 4, Tue, Apr 4, 1972 @ Golden State Warriors: W 106-99
KAJ: 15pts(6-17), 20rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 26pts(10-28), 15rbs, 5ast
Thurmond plays KAJ tougher than any center in the NBA again had a big game with 26 points(10-28) 15 rebounds. Jim(Crazy Horse) Barnett, who threw a 50ft bomb at the third quarter horn, led the Warriors by 29 points. Kareem was held by Thurmond to a season low of 15 points and went scoreless the entire second quarter and didn't tally in the third frame until only four minutes remained in the third quarter, the Bucks' two superstars KAJ and Big O combined only 26pts, the only reason they won only because the forwar star Dandrige and Perry, of course Warriors' terrible 38.8% shooting too. Dandridge was the key to Buck's win, he drilled in 31 points and got a good helping hand from the rest of the Bucks, Curtis Perry 17pts 12rbs, Lucius Allen 15pts and Oscar and Wally Jones 11 apiece. Big O only scored 11pts(3-12) 6rbs 11ast...
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Game 5, Thu, Apr 6, 1972 Golden State Warriors: W 108-100
KAJ: 23pts(8-22), 22rbs; Thurmond: 26pts(10-23), 15rbs
KAJ shot only 40.5% for the series, compared with 57.4% for the regular season… Thurmond outscored KAJ 26-23, but was outrebounded by 15-22, but Nate has 7ast against Kareem's 3ast; Dandridge continued to shine with 29pts, Big O scored 23pts(8-22) with 6rbs 8ast, Lucius Allen got involved with a fight with Wiliams, who was ejected, scored 24pts 6rbs 5ast; KAJ was outplayed by Thurmond but Bucks still murdered Warriors in 5 games and moved on to against Lakers led by Wilt Chamberlain in the next round, the latter won the title.
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Again, like I mentioned, during Jabbar’s peak season played against Thurmond in regular season, Jabbar had only one 30+ and two games below 20 points against Thurmond, KAJ scored 24 points, 10.8pts lower than his regular average(34.8pts), which’s almost 30% decrease; and in the playoffs against Thurmond KAJ only shot .405 averaged 22.8pts which’s 34% decrease compare with his regular average, this is one of the best arguments & proof that Thurmond is one of the GOAT defenders in NBA history.


1972-1973
Milwaukee Bucks(60-22):
Bucks had the second best record in the league tied with Lakers, originally, it had been determined that a special playoff game would be held to decide the conference champion, and then Wayne won the home court advantage on a coin flip over the GM of Lakers Pete Newell, who called heads for the coin flip, just as he had done last Friday and as the phoenix suns had done in the flip for Lew Alcindor in 1969. And then Milwaukee Bucks won the second coin flip as Lakers refused to come and play with Bucks, hence, the Western Champion was decided (by a coin flip shockingly..), as a result, Bucks as the conference champion opened the first round of the playoffs against the Warriors, and Lakers as No.2 team opened against Bulls whom they battled for 7 games to win, and then Lakers crushed Warriors in second round within 5 games. Surprisingly, Bucks were eliminated in the first round by their old familiar rival Warriors, who lost to Bucks 5 out of 6 games in regular season, karma is a biaaatch...
In this season, KAJ averaged 30.2points(on .554 FG%), second to Archibald who crowned the scoring title with 34pts, KAJ’s 16.1 rebounds ranked fourth in the league behind Wilt, Thurmond and Cowens, yet Kareem’s 5 assists per game was the second highest in his career, tied with his first year in Lakers.

Golden State Warriors(47-35):
Rick Barry finally back to Warriors in 72’-73’, this is one of the reasons they beat Bucks in the playoffs.. Chamberlain 38 year old center of the Los Angeles Lakers had 1334 rebounds for an 18.5rbs per game average Golden State's Nate Thurmond is second at 17.1rbs, he also has 17.1 points(on .446 FG%) per game.
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Sat, Oct 14, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 81-77
KAJ: 28pts; Thurmond:??
KAJ was limited to "only" 28pts by Thurmond, as I mentioned again and again, KAJ always played very well against other centers in the league: In the previous game, Jabbar poured in 41 points(17-25) in the season-opening victory over Phoenix. After defeated Warriors, in the next game against Portland Blazers, Jabbar dropped 49 points.
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Fri, Dec 8, 1972 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 124-91
KAJ: 19pts, 17rbs Thurmond: 13pts
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Sun, Jan 21, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 124-108
KAJ: 27pts Thurmond: 11pts
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Sat, Feb 10, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 135-108
KAJ: 28pts; Thurmond: ??
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Sat, Feb 24, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 93-102
KAJ: 27pts(12-33) ; Thurmond: ??
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Thu, Mar 22, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 108-98
KAJ: 27pts(11-25), 9rbs, 6ast; Thurmond: 17pts(7-13), 17rbs
Big O stars again to help Bucks win their 11th win straight with 25pts 9ast 8rbs, the reason Warriors lost is Barry only scored 4pts(0-6), Thurmond as usual outrebounded KAJ with a 17-9 margin.
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Playoffs
G1 Fri, Mar 30, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 110-90
KAJ: 22pts(10-24), 24rbs, 1ast, 6blk Thurmond: 14pts(5-13), 9rbs, 2ast
Thurmond left the game in the early fourth quarter, he hit his hand on the edge of a basket rim, cut left index finger, required six stitches. Rick Barry led Warriors with 22pts(9-17) 4rbs 4ast, Bucks had four players scored 20+, besides KAJ, Dandridge 20pts, Big O 22pts(9-21) 7rbs 12ast, Lucius Allen 20pts.
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G2 Sun, Apr 1, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 92-95
KAJ: 26pts Thurmond: 16pts
Without Rick Barry, Warriors had 6 players scored double digits, Russell hit 20ft jump shots from all over the court and scored 25pts, Mullins added 18, Big O only had 10pts, Dandridge 15pts, Allen 24pts; The reason that Warriors won in G2: Attles decided to attack the middle, go right after Kareem."We know Jabbar is the best center in the business, we also know Milwaukee plays very good team defense, with Jabbar the focal point. But if we don't test this strength, we cut off one point of our game and make them better than they really are."Attles said "What have we been doing instead of going right to the middle? Shooting from 20 and 30 feet away. How many games are won that way? You've got to get in close, get tips, screen, hit the open man. and if you go in close and challenge the big guy, you'll create situations and maybe get somebody open for a high percentage shot."
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G3 Thu, Apr 5, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 113-93
KAJ: 18pts, 18rbs Thurmond: 12pts
If Kareem doesn't do it, someone else does. said coach Larry Costello, it was 34 year old Oscar Robertson who did it with 8 assists and 34pts hitting 13 of 17 FGA including 10 in a row in a 113-93 victory. Dandridge added 22pts; Thurmond scored 12pts before leaving early in the final quarter. Barry played only 16min with 6pts due to sprained ankle.
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G4 Sat, Apr 7, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 97-102
KAJ: 25pts(8-19), 14rbs, 5ast Thurmond: 8pts(4-10), 10rbs, 5ast
Clyde Lee held the key to the Warriors' victory over bucks, although averaging only 6.3 points per game, Lee snared 21 rebounds along with 10pts which tied with Dandridge who has 5rbs only. Big O, who scored 24pts(8-19) 6rbs 7ast, said afterwards "Anytime Lee gets 21 rebounds, you're going t oget beat". In the first half, Dandridge went scoreless, Jabbar only shot 1 out of 10 and only 3 rebounds, Rick Barry, the man Dandridge was assigned to guard most of the time, scored 38pts(14-28), 22 points in the first half, Barry had played only 18 minutes in G2 and G3 due to an ankle injury and a severe cold; Dandridge's difficulty may have been due at least in part to the groin injury, what happened to KAJ was caused by Thurmond, who has consistently given KAJ more trouble than any other center in the league, he harassed Jabbar to the point of intimidation, before the game was very far along, KAJ was shooting from beyond his range, this reduced his FG and kept him away from the basket, that's one of the reasons that Lee could grabbed 21rbs, Perry tied KAJ with 14rbs too. Costello blamed KAJ and dandridge after the game.
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G5 Tue, Apr 10, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 97-100
KAJ: 19pts(8-24), 12rbs, 4ast Thurmond: 19pts(6-8), 5rbs, 2ast
Clyde Lee once again played a key role in the victory over Bucks, he scored game high 21pts(8-13) and game high 18rbs, Rick Barry had 18pts(3-12) 8rbs, Russell and Mullins added 18pts and 14pts; Big O scored 19pts(7-16) 4rbs 11ast, along with Dandridge(12pts) and Perry all were fouled out of the game. KAJ only shot 3-10 from the foul line. Costello, the coach of the Bucks, blame with Dandridge and KAJ again..."Kareem has just got to go harder to the basket against Nate Thurmond.". Wayne Embry questioned Bucks' will "Some of our guys just don't want to win. It's obvious. There doesn't seem to be any heart on this club. How can we so dominate a team during the regular season and then play like this when it really counts? It doesn't make any sense why these guys don't want to play hard." KAJ had missed a hook shot at the 17 second mark, then the Warriors ran out the clock.
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G6 Fri, Apr 13, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 86-100
KAJ: 27pts(13-27), 14rbs, 2ast Thurmond: 12pts(5-16), 15rbs, 3ast
Thurmond outplayed Abdul-Jabbar rather convincingly in the series; Lee grabbed 19 rebounds for Warriors thanks to Thurmond got Jabbar off the board so he could get the rebounds; Barnett led Warriors with 26pts(11-18) 7rbs 7ast, Barry 15pts shooting 50%, Russell and Mullins added 18pts and 16pts; Big O scored 18pts(6-12) 5rbs 4ast, Dandridge only had 4pts; "I think it's disgusting,"said Jon McGlocklin, who had 18pts tied with Big O."To me, we're a better team than they are, but they played harder as a team. They were smarter in the playoffs than they had been in the regular season, and we weren't nearly as smart or as hungry.". McGlocklin's words proved that Kettles' tactics was correct--attack Kareem, who failed to lead the team to comeback, simply just couldn't play hard ball. Nobody named names, but it was no secret that Dandridge and KAJ had bad series.


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KAJ had no 30+ but three games below 20points against Thurmond this season, averaged 26 points against Thurmond in regular, averaged 22.8 points in the series against Warriors.

1973-1974

Milwaukee Bucks(59-23):
This is the 35 years old Big O’s last season in NBA, with his final delivery, Bucks still had 59 wins and went to the NBA Finals in which they lost to Celtics in 7 games, KAJ was outplayed by Cowens in G7 by the way. KAJ was still the MVP in regular season, but the scoring title belonged to McAdoo with 30.6pts, Jabbar averaged 27pts as no.3 right behind Maravich, Jabbar’s 14.5rbs ranked no.4 in the league behind Hayes, Cowens and McAdoo, and his 3.5 shot blocks right behind Elmore Smith’s 4.9blk.

Golden State Warriors(44-38):
This is the last season that Thurmond played for Warriors, he still averaged 13pts 14.2rbs, Warriors didn’t make the playoffs. This is also the year that the league started to count the shot blocking numbers, Thurmond averaged 2.9 shot blockings per game at the age of 32 with multiple injuries and two comeback from knee surgery within three years, one might wonder how many shot blocks he had at his peak..
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Sat, Oct 13, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 97-85
KAJ: 29pts, 13rbs Thurmond: 9pts
----------------


Wed, Oct 17, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: W 109-95
KAJ: 22pts(10-18), 11rbs, 5ast Thurmond: 14pts(6-17), 19rbs, 3ast
----------


Tue, Nov 20, 1973 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 105-108
KAJ: 20pts(9-13), 11rbs, 3ast Thurmond: 11pts(5-10), 10rbs, 2ast
Nate Thurmond clutch plays: The Warriors regained the lead at 105-103 on a basket by Rick Barry who led all scorers with 31 points, and made it 106-103 on a free throw by Thurmond before Oscar Robertson's basket cut it to 106-105 with 1:45 to play, and then With 35 seconds remaining, big O drove in for a layup that would have put them ahead, but Thurmond leaped high to block it, and then he sank the clinching winning basket with 13 seconds to play and 2 seconds on the shot clock.
-----------


Sat, Feb 2, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: L 91-120
KAJ: 23pts Thurmond: 7pts
-----------


Thu, Mar 7, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Golden State Warriors: L 95-97
KAJ: ?? ; Thurmond left the game 2nd quarter due to reinjury his left arch
Rick Barry, currently the NBA's hottest hand, scored 31 points including the game-winner on a 20-foot jump shot at the buzzer Thursday night to give the Warriors a 97-95 victory over the peerless Milwaukee Bucks.Thurmond left the game in the second quarter after aggravating left arch, and Cazzie russell has a sore leg that's cutting into his palying time.
----------


Tue, Mar 19, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Golden State Warriors: W 111-100
KAJ: 31pts(13-20), 10rbs, 4blk Thurmond sidelined by a foot injury
Jabbar scored 31 points on 6foot-11 Johnson who for the first time in his eight starting assignments since regular center Nate thurmond was sidelined by a foot injury; KAJ seemed to have an almost leisurely time of it as he tossed in 13 of 20 field goal attempts, mostly hook shots, grabbed 10 rebounds and blocked four shots, Johnson was limited to four points but got 11 rebounds.


----------------------------------------------------------------KAJ had neither 30+ nor below 20pts game against Thurmond in the season of 73’


1974-1975

Milwaukee Bucks(38-44):
KAJ’s last season with Milwaukee Bucks, also this is Jabbar’s second lowest FG% by shooting .513 and averaged 30pts which ranked no.3 under Barry and the MVP McAdoo(34.5pts), KAJ had career low 14rbs, more importantly, this is the season that KAJ had to led the Bucks WITHOUT their brain—Big O, this is a season that test KAJ’s leadership without Oscar, under the same coach and with the same rosters, Jabbar failed to lead Milwaukee to victory, they only won 38 games and didn’t even made the playoffs. One of the reasons they didn’t make playoffs was due to KAJ’s injury, he played 65 games this season, the Bucks lost 13 of their first 14 games with KAJ sidelined by a broken right hand, the other reason was the Bucks played soft with KAJ with them, said the Bucks' coach:"This team plays harder without Kareem than with him. They leave it up to him to do it all, and it just doesn't happen." Costello's aide, Jack McKinney, seconded the motion, saying "If we could play the same way with Kareem that we do without him, we'd be close to unstoppable."

Chicago Bulls(47-35):
At his 12th season, Thurmond headed to Chicago Bulls at his age of 33(he can play with Jerry Sloan and Rick Adelman again?), he played 80 games this season and produced averaged 7.9pts on a .364 shooting%, grabbed 11.3rbs per game and had 2.9blk. His H2H matchups with KAJ were limited due to KAJ’s injury and Thurmond’s limited minutes which were cut to 34min(Jabbar played 42min), he had to share some minutes with Tom and Block, Thurmond’s starting center position was replaced by Tom Boerwinkle by the end of the season, main reason was in the final four games of the season as he made 31 assists, easing the offensive pressure. Bulls lost to Warriors in 7 games in the second round of playoffs.
------------



Sat, Oct 19, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: L 70-87
KAJ missed the trip due to injury; Thurmond: ??
-------------


Tue, Oct 22, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 92-90
KAJ sideline due to injury; Thurmond: 15pts(6-18), 14rbs
Dandrige finished with 28pts 8rbs and 5 steals, Bucks didn't sign with Bellamy, they're struggling play without a quality pivot..
-----------


Sat, Nov 30, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 2OT 101-99
KAJ: 28pts, including the decisive tip-in with 1:15 left; Thurmond 15pts
Kareem AbdulJabbar scored six of his 28 points in the second overtime including the decisive tipin with 115 left to lift the Milwaukee Bucks to a 101-99
------------


Fri, Dec 6, 1974 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: W 99-96
KAJ: 21pts(7-22), 18rbs, 3ast; Thurmond: 6pts(2-11), 13rbs, 4ast
KAJ was limited to 21pts by Thurmond, KAJ said afterward "I had to shoot from farther out than I'd like to shoot", Dandridge was another big Buck outscoring Chet Walker in their matchup 28-15, John Block had 22pts(9-15) and 16 rebounds.
------------


Sun, Jan 5, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: W 96-95
KAJ: 33pts(14-33), 15rbs, 1ast Thurmond: 10pts(5-12), 14rbs, 6ast
For three quarters KAJ was held by Thurmond to just 17 points, then in the final period, Jabbar erupted for 16 points to lead the Milwaukee Bucks to a 96-95 win over the Bulls. Thurmond said"I couldn't play him any better, I forced him out of position and kept my hand in his face. but when a guy gets hot like that there's nothing that 's going to stop him" "I had him right where I wanted him," Thurmond said, shaking his head."I played him as well as I've ever played him, and he still got 33 points. I play anybody else like that and he's lucky to get 20. He's such a fantastic player. I'd rather play against anybody but him." Since KAJ came into the league five years ago, Thurmond has been his toughest individual rival. When the Bucks did a first round pratfall against the GS Warriors in the 1973 playoffs, Thurmond outplayed him throughout the series. So when Thurmond siad that he had guarded Jabbar Sunday as well as he ever had, he was in effect saying that he had done it as well as anyone ever had. But KAJ still managed to score 33 points. Thurmond established defensive position early and refusing to budge and consistently forced KAJ out of his favorite shooting range. The strategy worked for three quarters. Thurmond held him to 17 points, and to 6 baskets in 20 attempts, in the last quarter, KAJ sanked 8 of 13 shots, including 4 long sky hooks in the last 6 minutes. "He was missing in the first half," Thurmond said."When you're guarding Kareem, you have to take both angle and length into consideration. I had things just right, and it was working. But then he stared throwing in 15 footers, and there was nothing I could do about it." "This was our third game in two and a half days, and that wouldn't have made much difference to him. He's still a young guy(27 years old). But this is my 12th year, and I'll have to admit I got tired." Thurmond is 33 years old.
-----------


Fri, Feb 21, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: L 85-96
KAJ: 20pts(10-24), 14rbs, 7ast; Thurmond: 2pts(0-2), 11rbs, 3ast
Forwards Bob Love(29pts 10rbs) and Chet Walker(22pts 9rbs) combined for 51 points to lead Bulls to their sixth straight victory and their 11th in the last 12 games, it was the sixth loss in the last 10 games for the Bucks and the Bulls' win broke a string of four straight Bucks' victories over Chicago.
---------


Sun, Mar 16, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks @ Chicago Bulls: W 103-90
KAJ: 32pts(13-28), 15rbs, 5ast, 4blk; Thurmond: 4pts(2-6), 5rbs, 5ast
It used to be KAL and Dandridge. Now it is Jabbar, Dandridge and Jon McGlocklin. KAJ scored 32 points, Dandridge 24 and McGlocklin 21. That's 77points and no other Buck had more than 6 points. And scoring was all the big three did. Abdul-Jabbar also contributed 15 rebounds, 5 assists and 4 blocked shots; Dandridge, 7 rebounds, 4 steals and a great defensive job on Chet Walker, and McGlocklin, a game high of 11 assists. Tom Boerwinkle grabbed game high 18 rebounds. Thurmond was in fouled trouble and played 33min
------------------

Sun, Apr 6, 1975 Milwaukee Bucks Chicago Bulls: L 100-112
KAJ: 34pts Thurmond: ??





---------------------------------------------------------------

KAJ had scored three 30+ against Thurmond in the season of 74’-75’, averaged 28 points, this is probably his best season average stats against Thurmond so far before the latter played on the bench next season.


Until the 74’-75’ season I’ve included all their 44 head-to-head matchups(I’ve excluded their injured games) when Thurmond still as starting center, including his 33 years old 74’-75’ season, added up all those 44 H2H stats, Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar scored total of 1106 points, and averaged 25.1 points against Thurmond..

1975-1976

Los Angeles Lakers(40-42):
KAJ wanted to be traded to New York, but Knicks was not that much into him, instead, Knicks was flirting with Wilt Chamberlain and offered him the same salary as KAJ’s salary signed with the Lakers, during his first season in Lakers, KAJ played all 82 games, got another MVP award, shooting .529 and averaged 27.7pts which's no.2 under McAdoo's 31.1pts, and career high 16.9 rebounds which crowned him the rebounding title, and a career high 4.1 shot blocks which also topped the league, plus, he had 5 assists per game. This is his best stats season as a laker.

Cleveland Cavaliers(49-33):
After 13th years in the league, Nate Thurmond played 13 games in Chicago Bulls then was traded to Cleveland Calvaliers with his 30.000 a year big paycheck, the James boys were the starting centers and PF in Bulls, Thurmond only had 17 minutes to play, averaged 4.6pts on .418 shooting and 5.3rbs at the age of 34 years old.
-------------------------------

Sun, Nov 16, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers Chicago Bulls: W 110-93
KAJ: 18pts, 15rbs, 8blk; Thurmond: 6pts
Kareem scored 18 points and pulled down 15 rebounds and blocked eight shots to lead Los Angeles over Chicago. Thurmond played 33 minutes and got 6 points. 10 days later on 26 Nov 1975, Bulls traded reserve center Nate Thurmond and reserve forward Rowloand Garrett to the Cleveland Cavaliers for center Steve Patterson and rookie forward Eric Fernsten.
----------


Tue, Dec 16, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: L 103-123
KAJ: 34pts, 22rbs Thurmond: 9pts
--------------

Sun, Dec 21, 1975 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: L 98-99
KAJ: 34pts(13-33), 12rbs Thurmond: 12pts
“I was scared to death about this game,”said Cleveland Coach Bill Fitch."First game home off a trip is always a tough one. Nate Thurmond has made the adjustment to our club and he did a great job against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,"added Fitch, who watched Thurmond hold Abdul-Jabbar to only three baskets in 14 attempts in the final 12 minutes. The Lakers had one more chance to win it with 15 seconds to go, but Jabbar missed a hook shot with seven seconds remaining and Cavs grabbed the rebound. It was Cleveland's 18th rebound against 10 for Los Angeles in the final period. "I think this is the best I have played Jabbar,"said Thurmond, who put in his firt four shots and finished with 12 points."I tried to force him out a step or two. You have to play him high and by position." Jabbar, who topped all scorers with 34 points, canned only 13 of 33 from the field and hauled down 12 rebounds. "Thurmond has always played well against me and I learned a few things from him during my rookie year,"Jabbar said,"He's tall and agile. I couldn't seem to put anything in the hoop."
---------


Sun, Feb 29, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: W 108-97
KAJ: ?? Thurmond: ??
-------

Tue, Mar 16, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers : W 109-105
KAJ: 32pts(16-20) Thurmond: ??
----

1976-1977

Los Angeles Lakers(53-29):
29 years old KAJ maintained his MVP title by leading Lakers to 53 wins, shooting a career high .579 and averaged 26.2pts 13.3rbs, KAJ’s rebounding title was robbed by Walton(14.4rbs), but tied shot blocking with Walton’s 3.2blk.

Cleveland Cavaliers(43-39):
This is the 14th and final season for Nate Thurmond, at the age of 35, he missed almost half of the season, played 20min averaged 5.5pts 7.6rbs 1.7blk.
----------------------

Sun, Oct 24, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: L 95-100
KAJ: 29pts Thurmond: 8pts
The Cleveland defense held Lakers center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar without a field goal from 3:47 of the second period until the 9:41 mark of the final period.
------------


Sun, Nov 14, 1976 Los Angeles Lakers Cleveland Cavaliers: L 95-97
KAJ: 20pts Thurmond: 2pts
-----------


Tue, Jan 11, 1977 Los Angeles Lakers @ Cleveland Cavaliers: W 101-99 (OT)
KAJ: 40pts Thurmond: ??
KAJ's clutch performance: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar swept in a hook shot with four seconds left in overtime to cap a 40-point performance and give the Los Angeles Lakers a 101-99 NBA victory. Jim Chones, Cleveland's starting center, fouled out, Nate Thurmond, Cleveland's No.2 pivotman, also fouled out. So with the game on the line -- the score tied and 25 seconds left in overtime -- it was up to little-used John Lambert. After calling a timeout, the Los Angeles Lakers killed the clock until 10 seconds were left. The the ball went into the pivot, stationed in his familiar low post, Abdul-Jabbar spun on Lambert and flipped up a jump-hook that went through the net with four seconds remaining, giving Lakers a dramatic 101-99 victory. This is the last matchup between the duel KAJ and Thurmond, injured his knee again in Feb, and another held another knee surgery which ended his 14th year NBA career at the age of 35.
--------



--------------------------------------------------------------

This includes the total of all 52 head-to-head matchup(their injured games excluded) between Jabbar and Thurmond. Thanks for reading.. and maybe some of you would like to help to add those data I missed please?



------------

1971 NBA WC playoffs (5 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 27.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 0.4 apg, 48.6 %FG, 39.2 min W
Nate Thurmond - 17.6 ppg, 10.2rpg, 3 apg, 37.1 %FG, 38.4 min L

1972 NBA WC playoffs (5 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 18.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 40.5 %FG, 47.8 min W
Nate Thurmond - 25.4 ppg, 17.8 rpg, 5.2 apg, 43.4 %FG, 46.0 min L


1973 NBA WC playoffs (6 games)
Kareem A.Jabbar - 22.8 ppg, 16.2 rpg, 2.8 apg, 42.8 %FG, 46.0 min L
Nate Thurmond - 13.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.2 apg, 39.7 %FG, *** W

Note. 22.8 ppg for K.A.Jabbar in 1972 and 1973 are not copy-paste errors (and 0.4 apg is not typing error - which was strange for me as well)

[batmana]

I'm pretty sure he will not get enough support yet but I will vote for the second time for Bill Walton.

I voted once for him before I started voting for Durant and I just want to return to my own idea of the list. If Walton again proves to be unpopular, I may go away from him for several picks again. Walton had a perfect-storm peak but it was very short. Injuries made him a completely different player afterwards, to the point that post-injury Walton wouldn't even make the top 100 list. Before the injuries, he was a league MVP, a Finals MVP and a Defensive Player of the Year. He would have been the perfect opponent for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...

Prime Walton was a smart player who was quite possibly the best big-man passer ever, he knew how to play within the system and how to play within his limitations. All this made him a very efficient and useful offensive player. He was an anchor defensively, quick and strong in the mold of Bill Russell. He was an excellent rebounder and a shot-blocker. If his career hadn't been ruined by those injuries, he would have probably been a top-10 prospect. As it is, I still believe his phenomenal peak makes him worthy of a spot here.

[ThaRegul8r]

^ I remember that post, as it was published on the other board before I left there. EDIT: I recalled incorrectly. The post was written by a poster who went by the name of "alexandreben." That's why I dislike going by memory alone.

[DQuinn1575]

I'm pretty sure he will not get enough support yet but I will vote for the second time for Bill Walton.

I voted once for him before I started voting for Durant and I just want to return to my own idea of the list. If Walton again proves to be unpopular, I may go away from him for several picks again. Walton had a perfect-storm peak but it was very short. Injuries made him a completely different player afterwards, to the point that post-injury Walton wouldn't even make the top 100 list. Before the injuries, he was a league MVP, a Finals MVP and a Defensive Player of the Year. He would have been the perfect opponent for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...

Prime Walton was a smart player who was quite possibly the best big-man passer ever, he knew how to play within the system and how to play within his limitations. All this made him a very efficient and useful offensive player. He was an anchor defensively, quick and strong in the mold of Bill Russell. He was an excellent rebounder and a shot-blocker. If his career hadn't been ruined by those injuries, he would have probably been a top-10 prospect. As it is, I still believe his phenomenal peak makes him worthy of a spot here.

I haven't decided yet but considering walton. He deserves as much credit for one NBA title that you can assign to one player.

Couple of other players I am considering are Dave cowens, who was top player on Celtic 70 teams/ 2 champs plus other good seasons

Gervin - top scorer left

Sam jones. Maybe 2nd best player on
5 title teams.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[JordansBulls]

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Led the Pistons to back to back titles in an era that was tough as nails. Had to deal with peak Bird and Magic in the process. Also won finals mvp, lost only 1 series in his career with HCA. Took a franchise from the bottom to the top as well in the process.

[Quotatious]

Isiah Thomas (2) - ronnymac2, JordansBulls
Gary Payton (5) - penbeast0, trex_8063, tsherkin, SactoKingsFan, Quotatious
Reggie Miller (1) - john248
Bill Walton (1) - batmana

RayBan-Sematra and (probably) Doctor MJ, are leaning heavily towards Reggie. Doc didn't say anything like that in this thread, but considering that he felt pretty comfortable voting for him in the previous thread, I guess it's safe to assume that Miller is still his choice.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Yeah I will go ahead and cast my vote for Reggie Miller.
Vote : Reggie Miller

I already provided my reasoning on the first page though for anyone considering Miller I must defer to some other posters who have provided great & deeply detailed arguments for him.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Reggie Miller

Same reasons apply. Lots of respect for a guy in a role that easily works into a team context and can scale as needed.

[Doctor MJ]

Want to make sure everyone sees this here:

As I've posted elsewhere, there's an issue with the 1998 scaled RAPM data. Check out the thread on the stats board, but basically the numbers are inflated by around 25%, and this is relevant to Payton, Reggie, Mutombo, and Zo among others.

[ChiTown6rings]

Are there any games with Thurmond on youtube, where we can see his GOAT level man to man defense?

I'm not sure if they're on YouTube, but here are the games of him that exist somewhere in the trading community according to ihaveplanet.com:

Dec. 24 1967 - @ SEA
Jan. 4 1974 - @ LAL
Apr. 13 1975 - @ KCO (playoffs)
Apr. 20 1975 - vs. KCO (playoffs)
May 4 1975 - vs. GSW (playoffs)
May 11 1975 - vs. GSW (playoffs)
May 14 1975 - @ GSW (playoffs)

Not sure how many are complete. There are some more games from his last two seasons, but he was only averaging 20 or fewer minutes a night, so they might not be valuable.

I messaged Dipper 13, so maybe he has some links.

I'm going to start investing in these older games once I get settled into my own house down here. The last game that I have received was the 1976 Suns at Celtics Finals game 5.

[ChiTown6rings]

What are some thoughts on Bob Lanier? Very interested in hearing thoughts on him, as I am not very familiar with his career.

Very good offensive player; not much of a defender, led a series of really bad defenses in Detroit through his prime except for one outlier year in 1975. Can't see him over Robert Parish, much less the guys we have been discussing.

Definitely don't see him over Parish. It just dawned on me that I didn't recall ever seeing mentioned with some other legendary bigs. When I usually hear of him, it's a story on the Pistons or his personal bio.

[Notanoob]

I'll throw in my vote for Bill Walton as a truly transcendent basketball player. Miles ahead of everyone left in terms of peak, solid accolades despite having essentially two healthy prime seasons. Best passing center, solid jump shot and post game, excellent defense, rebounding, and incredible motor.

Sam Jones is a good mention though.

[penbeast0]

I'll throw in my vote for Bill Walton as a truly transcendent basketball player. Miles ahead of everyone left in terms of peak, solid accolades despite having essentially two healthy prime seasons. Best passing center, solid jump shot and post game, excellent defense, rebounding, and incredible motor.

Sam Jones is a good mention though.

I'd say one prime season; his foot collapsed again before the playoffs the next season so if you want to win a title, he's useless except for one season and a later one as an aging reserve.

[Jaivl]

Sorry, but I'm not voting Walton in this project. He has one wonderful season, and then... nearly nothing. I prefer 8 seasons of LaMarcus Aldridge over that, and I doubt he makes my top 100.

Right now I'm not sure who I'm gonna vote. With the RAPM data corrected, Mutombo's edge in defense is still very big, but not that otherwordly.

[DQuinn1575]

Sorry, but I'm not voting Walton in this project. He has one wonderful season, and then... nearly nothing. I prefer 8 seasons of LaMarcus Aldridge over that, and I doubt he makes my top 100.

Right now I'm not sure who I'm gonna vote. With the RAPM data corrected, Mutombo's edge in defense is still very big, but not that otherwordly.

Actually two seasons - In 78 the Blazers were 50-10 with him; 8-14 without.

The question is What's one championship worth?

[DQuinn1575]

http://bkref.com/tiny/UPKf4
1963-1969 Celtics Sam Jones is 2nd over Havlicek on PER and WS, and 2nd on team.

Throw in 1962, and you have an 8 year stretch with 7 titles where Sam Jones is the 2nd best player on the team.

He was Pippen before there was Pippen.

Offensive leader, heck offensive savior of team that majored in defense.
Always considered a sound defender, playing on best all-time defensive team.
Most impactful player left on championships.
Russell didn't win 11 titles by himself.
Possibly most underrated player in history

Vote Sam Jones

[Texas Chuck]

The question is What's one championship worth?

To me personally its worth an absolute ton.

But as great as Walton was that year, I don't think there is any guarantee of a championship based solely on his performance. I think most of us want as many, and as good, of shots at championships as we can get.

Now I have no problem with those voting for him at whatever point. My personal belief is that he belongs somewhere in the top 100, but deciding where is going to be very difficult. I still think we have players on the board with multiple seasons where they can be the clear-cut best player on a champion(including at least one who not only could be, but was, in Dave Cowens).

[Texas Chuck]

Official Vote: Dikembe Mutombo

Main reason: Best defensive player left.

Also an elite shot-blocker and rim protector

Good rebounder

Competent offensively

Part of some pretty significant playoff success as a key contributor.


I'm still sticking with Deke, but Dquinn's question has me possibly re-thinking Dave Cowens in the near future.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #37 - Payton

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... oga01.html

- 17 year career
- 9x all NBA (2 1st, 5 2nd, 2 3rd)
- 9x all defensive 1st team
- 1 top 3 and 7 top 10 MVP finishes
- 1x DPOY

Payton is one of the most complete players left on the board. Solid 9 year prime where he excelled on both ends of the floor. I don't think his average efficiency should bring him down that much as he ran some of the best offenses in the NBA during his prime, and he was an elite perimeter defender. His durability is also quite impressive: over his first 14 seasons, he only missed a total of 7 games, playing nearly 37 MPG (from 95-03, he played 39.6 MPG).

I will say, at this point in the project, I think people who are strongly against isiah might want to at least re-evaluate why they feel that way. He lacks longevity and wasn't a very efficient scorer, but beyond that I think we have to acknowledge how talented he was, and what he accomplished in his career. Am I going to vote for him next? Not sure, but he should probably start getting more consideration sooner than later.

Should be interesting to see how the top 40 rounds out. The last 5 spots or so haven't been easy decisions. I think I have a few clear choices coming up, though.

[trex_8063]

Isiah Thomas (2) - ronnymac2, JordansBulls
Gary Payton (6) - penbeast0, trex_8063, tsherkin, SactoKingsFan, Quotatious, Clyde Frazier
Reggie Miller (3) - john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ
Bill Walton (2) - batmana, notanoob
Sam Jones (1) - DQuin1575
Dikembe Mutombo (1) - Chuck Texas

...thru post #39 (we're kinda weak-sauce on the output this thread)