Open Court: 50 Greatest & Next 10

[Imon]

Shaq was already on the list back in 1997 which was controversial at the time as Shaq said in the video since he had only been in the league for 5 years. As Reggie said, they guessed right about Shaq which, I think, is the same approach they're taking with Durant (7-years in).

As for Webber I feel like the picture of him posing with KG, Dirk, and Tim that GYK posted actually explains why he got bumped off the list.
Although Webber came in only one year before KG he had gone to college and came in a bit older and with a more mature game than KG. So Webber falls into this weird area between Malone & Barkley on one side and KG, Tim, and Dirk on the other side.
IMO Webber is better than good PFs like Gasol and Bosh but not as good as KG or Dirk which leaves him in a weird limbo between good and great. Maybe he's a great good PF? And perhaps had he stayed healthy he'd be in that top-tier PF rank.

[penbeast0]

Webber absolutely deserves mention
http://followpics.co/kevin-garnett-chri ... be-bryant/
He is the forgotten man of the era. He had a winning record against the other greats. Elevating his teams as the number one option. While posting amazing stats.
He is one of those players that perception has more impact on the fans view then what actually happened on the court.

Elevated his teams plural? You mean Washington and Golden State? I'm going to STRONGLY differ on that. He was extremely talented, but his dislike of physical contact made both his offense (extremely low foul draw rate for a 20+ppg big) and defense (consistently let opposing post players get good position against him) appreciably weaker than you would expect from watching his highlights or looking only at fg% and shotblocking. Not even going into his off court issues or history of choking.

[Matt15]

The thing that stuck out most in my mind was how quickly they disregarded Nash when Kenny mentioned his name. Shaq called him just a "sympathy" MVP, and others were quick to point out that the system he played in has a tendency to produce big numbers. Personally, I would have given Durant, Nash, and Wade the nod before Iverson though I don't believe having him in there is necessarily a mistake. Webber, Pierce and possibly Allen should be honorable mentions at the least imo. Can't really speak to McAdoo and Wilkins as I never watched them play.

[Albanian Damien]

Honestly I don't understand why people say they want to hear an actual argument for AI but then say things like 2001 was fluke year. If that's your mindset and you'll never be able to be convinced of AI's impact. The 76ers were the only team that year to even put a dent in the Lakers monstrous armor(something the great CWebb, Duncan or Blazers couldn't). He was the only player that year who almost single handily was able to defeat the Lakers. Again the combined efforts of the Kings, Spurs and Blazer (3 GREAT TEAMS) couldn't do that. One time MVP, 11 time All Star, 4 time leading scoring, 3 time leader in SPG for a season (2/3 of the time he also won the scoring title). The reason people always hate on AI is because soo many have tried to forcibly call him a PG. However, he was always an undersized two. Literally, if I told you about a SG who had the same stats as AI and same accolades. It wouldn't even be a question about what his impact was. But since AI was small people tried to force him into a stereotype that was never his game.

[Albanian Damien]

Part two to my defense of AI:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sal01.html

More often than not, Allen Iverson was squeezed for every bit of basketball he had in him in order to help his team. What do I mean by that? Look at his MPG. In 14 season he led the league in MPG 7 times. That's mean for 50% of his career there was NOT a single player playing more than AI. Then you look even further, Out of 14 seasons he played 40+ MPG 11(!!) times. If you don't understand how impressive that is for someone of AI's stature and playing ability (dribbling between defenders, courages drives to the hoop, and pure hustle) than idk what to tell you

[Laimbeer]

Just get the feeling through the whole thing Reggie wants to jump up and scream "What about me, I belong on this %$#@ing list?!?!"

[Basketballefan]

Yeah, saying Wade isn't a clear cut top 50 player is disgusting.

Wilkins, Cwebb and Miller over Wade? Comical.

How does Nash not even get a vote?

[PaulieWal]

Yeah, saying Wade isn't a clear cut top 50 player is disgusting.

Wilkins, Cwebb and Miller over Wade? Comical.

How does Nash not even get a vote?

Shaq really does hold grudges. I always thought his beef was with Riley but for some reason you can tell he's soured on Wade lately (maybe some behind the scenes stuff).

[Basketballefan]

Honestly I don't understand why people say they want to hear an actual argument for AI but then say things like 2001 was fluke year. If that's your mindset and you'll never be able to be convinced of AI's impact. The 76ers were the only team that year to even put a dent in the Lakers monstrous armor(something the great CWebb, Duncan or Blazers couldn't). He was the only player that year who almost single handily was able to defeat the Lakers. Again the combined efforts of the Kings, Spurs and Blazer (3 GREAT TEAMS) couldn't do that. One time MVP, 11 time All Star, 4 time leading scoring, 3 time leader in SPG for a season (2/3 of the time he also won the scoring title). The reason people always hate on AI is because soo many have tried to forcibly call him a PG. However, he was always an undersized two. Literally, if I told you about a SG who had the same stats as AI and same accolades. It wouldn't even be a question about what his impact was. But since AI was small people tried to force him into a stereotype that was never his game.

I would put Iverson in my unanimous 50, but not before i would for Nash or Wade, just can't do it.

[Basketballefan]

Yeah, saying Wade isn't a clear cut top 50 player is disgusting.

Wilkins, Cwebb and Miller over Wade? Comical.

How does Nash not even get a vote?

Shaq really does hold grudges. I always thought his beef was with Riley but for some reason you can tell he's soured on Wade lately (maybe some behind the scenes stuff).

Shaq Cwebb, Billups and Barkley all said Wade is not a top 50 player.

i guess he was always just a fringe all star.

[PaulieWal]

Yeah, saying Wade isn't a clear cut top 50 player is disgusting.

Wilkins, Cwebb and Miller over Wade? Comical.

How does Nash not even get a vote?

Shaq really does hold grudges. I always thought his beef was with Riley but for some reason you can tell he's soured on Wade lately (maybe some behind the scenes stuff).

Shaq Cwebb, Billups and Barkley all said Wade is not a top 50 player.

i guess he was always just a fringe all star.

Billups is still mad over the 06 series probably .

Barkley has been feuding with Wade for a while now.

Shaq I am guessing it has something to do with his exit in Miami. He's probably mad that Wade receives more credit for the 06 title in the media than Shaq does.

C-Webb I have no idea what his line of thinking is.

This also speaks volumes to the "players are always the best evaluators of rankings" crowd. Shaq played with Wade, Billups played against him so what excuses do they have?

Sure some might place Wade outside of their top 50 but if you polled most I can't see him being out of the Top 30 at the worst but whatever, you take their opinions with a grain of salt like I said.

[Laimbeer]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

[Joao Saraiva]

Wade and Nash are for sure top 50 of all time. I thought it was general consensus.

[RSCD3_]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

McGrady over wade?

He played worse than prime wade for all but one year and was constantly hurt

Also these guys just brush over the fact that McGrady never led a team to the second round of the playoffs while wade had arguably the best finals ever




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[PaulieWal]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

Where do you place Wade and Nash on an all-time basis? I don't see how that's validation. Barkley has been fighting with Wade for a while and for some reason Shaq seems to have a grudge against him as well.

[RSCD3_]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

Even if Shaq says that Nash is overrated because he got to play in a good system wasn't LA just that system for Shaq he had good 3 point shooters and a great young 3 and D budding star along with one of the goat coaches

Would 2000 Shaq have performed optimally if he we was in Detroit ( instead of Drummond ) with Brandon Jennings and Josh smith and only one guy who could hit a three

Players should be judged on how good they can be and I doubt a lot of players could have subbed in for Nash and gotten them to a goat level offense.

Either that or Dantoni is one of the best coaches in modern history


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[D Nice]

This also speaks volumes to the "players are always the best evaluators of rankings" crowd. Shaq played with Wade, Billups played against him so what excuses do they have?

Wade was routinely recognized as one of the best players in the league by his peers in his prime, so try again (it's the contemporaries that matter).

This is a random collection of guys reflecting and discussing historical rankings representing a small percentage of player population. And they aren't removing any of the original top 50 from the list (out of respect), plus are including Dominique & McaDoo as they were snubbed the first time around, so it is effectively a "top 3 players in 1997 discussion," not a from scratch top 50 list, stop misrepresenting it as such.

And even then, 3 of the guys voted for D-Wade, and he was in a run-off with KD. When you consider longevity and others who were potentially snubbed, it's understandable that (for a couple) Wade might miss the cut. And AI absolutely belongs. He is unequivocally a top 10 player since '97 and a top 60 player all-time.

Shaq is obviously, obviously biased against Wade and Chauncey was essentially silent on the matter, but even so he was arguing FOR Wade as the 3rd guy to make the new 10 (over KD), so make of that what you will. Nash is the outlier, his peers and other greats tend to not credit him, but again, their analysis/rankings are hardly any worse (again, they're better) than rank-and-sort lists based on any one metric people are going to pick. And even though the missed the mark with Nash, the idea that he won MVPs while not being the best player in the league has tons of merit, they aren't wrong there at all. Also, coincidentally, 1 of the 2 smartest guys in the room DID have Nash on his list (Kenny), so there's that.

Thanks for posting OP, wasn't aware the new season had kicked off.

[Clyde Frazier]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

McGrady over wade?

He played worse than prime wade for all but one year and was constantly hurt

Also these guys just brush over the fact that McGrady never led a team to the second round of the playoffs while wade had arguably the best finals ever


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

...what?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#MIA-DAL

[Doctor MJ]

Right so this is one of those things they have these guys do from time to time that essentially serve to remind us how little time these guys actually spend thinking in depth on basketball. They were successful basketball players, and now they are on TV because they can have fun doing it and get paid a good amount while continuing to soak in the limelight.

None of this is to say they don't know quite a bit about basketball, but nuanced evaluation of the precise value of a player's game applied over his entire career isn't something you can figure out by just watching him play, or even by playing against him. Those things can help, but you have to get analytical to really get anywhere serious.

[RSCD3_]

I've been saying for a long time Wade and Nash were overrated at realgm and there's validation here.

Pretty much all agreed Nash thrived in a gadget system and Payton and Kidd were easy choices over him. Smith was the only one really going to bat for Wade, while Shaq took Penny and McGrady over him. That was brutal.

McGrady over wade?

He played worse than prime wade for all but one year and was constantly hurt

Also these guys just brush over the fact that McGrady never led a team to the second round of the playoffs while wade had arguably the best finals ever


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

...what?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ml#MIA-DAL

I think it's the best but I haven't looked around and compared it to other great series.

2000 Shaq was also dominant in the finals

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2000_finals.html?mobile=false

I need to actually watch the series in depth and revisit 2006 to get a clearer picture though


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums