RealGM Top 100 List #68

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 

Post#21 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Jan 3, 2015 11:12 pm

penbeast0 wrote:PG: short peak guys (anyone willing to argue Stephen Curry? :wink: ).
If Curry raised his game some more and performed great in the playoffs for the next 2 years and then got a career ending injury then I would be willing to think about Curry in the Top 100.


The game last night between the Warriors and the Raptors shows how a team can make or break a players stats. Last year the best way to stop the Warriors was to trap Steph Curry. Mark Jackson wanted the bull in Steph's hands and wanted to use picks to get Steph free. Sending 3 men to guard Steph and the pick setter was effective.

Curry does not have the speed to dribble out of traps.

Kerr seems to follow the Tex Winter approach that a team should not need a point guard. Last nights he Raptors were attempting to trap Curry continuously. Steph would get rid of the ball quickly and the ball moved to players for easy shots. Steph still got plenty of chances to get assists when the ball came back to him.

What the Warriors did as a team that produced great stats for many players was accomplished by hard work, lot's of practice, a good game plan and multiple players capable of making the right pass or the right cut.

Stats:
Curry 10- 18, 5 - 11, 7-7 32 points, 12 assists, no turnovers, 5 rebounds
Draymond Green 6-12, 2-6, 2-2, 16 points, 13 assists, 2 turnovers, 11 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 blocks
Mo Speights 12-19, 0-1, 2-2 26 points, 8 rebounds.
Klay 8-13, 4-6, 0-0 20 points 3 blocks
Team 53% 12 - 28 3pts ,35 assists , 9 turnovers
The Raptors played very well and had excellent shooting and scoring despite the Warriors playing great defense. the Raptors played great and lost by 20.

Now if Kerr's system did not work or if the players did not play hard or if pf Draymond Green and the other players were poor passers then the trap would have worked and Curry and the other players would not have their great stats.

The Warriors played 2 games in LA at Christmas where they were not mentally and physically sharp enough to execute Kerr's system and the result ended up being losses and poorer stats.

In a situation comparing Bernard King to Moncreif or Alex English Bernard King's teams, put Bernard King at a disadvantage. As bad as some of King's teams were those teams were better with King than without King.
Nets 22 wins without King, With King 24 and 37 wins. Wthout King 34 wins
Jazz, King only 19 games.
Warriors, with Parish, Ray, Purvis, Smith, Lucas but without Bernard 24 wins. With King 39 and 45 wins. After King 30 Wins.

Knicks, before King 33 wins. With King 44, 47 wins.
Knicks, last season King plays 55 of first 71 games. Before the season got going the team lost Cartwright, Webster, Ray Williams and Truck Robbinson from the previous year without replacing them. I respect Sparrow, Wlaker, and Tucker s decent role players but King has very little support. Knicks go 24 and 47 during the first 71 games and then lose 11 straight games at the end of the season without King.

The next year without King but with Patrick Ewing and The return of Carwright the Knicks win 23 games. So Ewing and Cartwright and more experience for the younger Knicks is worth less than 55 games of Bernard King on a team with crap for big men.

Bullets win 42 games before King, Win 38, 40, 31, 30, games with post injury King. The first year with Moses and Jeff Malone the team looks like it should no be so bad. By the last year with 34 year old King and Moses and Jeff gone the team looks like it should be bad. The Next year without King the team wins 25 games.

2 years later King plays part time minutes in 32 games for the Nets.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 

Post#22 » by Moonbeam » Sat Jan 3, 2015 11:30 pm

It looks like lots of players are on 2 votes, and my vote for Sam Jones will add another.

Concerning Jones, Sharman and Cousy:

Spoiler:
I concede trex's point about OWS. I use win shares as part of my evaluation, and Win Shares do favor Sharman and Jones over Cousy, particularly in the playoffs (which is why Jones gets my vote over Cousy, fwiw). I think Win Shares are brilliant at a team level - they are supremely correlated with ORating and DRating, and as such I think they do a good job of assigning a total number of OWS and DWS to a team. How those Win Shares are allocated to individual players may be up for debate, and that is something I looked at in this post for 80s SFs.

Looking at Cousy, Sharman, and Jones, we do see this to some extent with Sharman: his presence on the court was associated with his teammates having a weighted average decrease of 0.76 OWS - not a severe drop, but a drop nonetheless. With Sam Jones, the same thing happens, though not to quite the same extent: his teammates had a weighted average decrease of 0.34 OWS. The problem when it comes to Cousy is that his presence also was associated with a weighted average decrease of 0.36 OWS. The other guys trex raised as a comparison see a different story - Kidd's teammates saw a weighted average increase of 1.13 OWS. With Kobe, it's an increase of 2.09 OWS (the biggest overachievements being 2001, 2002 and 2008).

So why does this bump not apply to Cousy? It's hard to say - by this method, his teammates did "overachieve" early on from 1952-54, then hovered around expectations until falling well short in 1959, massively short in 1961, and a fair bit above in 1962. Whatever the cause, any additional benefit his offensive presence may have provided isn't being picked up in the same way it is with Kidd and Kobe.

Nevertheless, I have Cousy well ahead of Sharman on my list (though Sharman will likely get my support before we hit #80). I just can't overlook what I perceive to be a big disparity in playoff performance - as mentioned before, I think Jones' efficient scoring was an important contributor to several close series that Boston won:

1962: Team leading 28 points in 2-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (Heinsohn with 25, Cousy with 21)
1962: 27 points in 3-point overtime victory over the Lakers in Game 7 (Russell had 30)
1963: Team leading 47 points in 11-point victory over Cincinnati in Game 7 (Smith next with 19)
1965: Team leading 37 points in 1-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (Havlicek next with 26)
1966: Team leading 34 points in 9-point victory over Cincinnati in closeout Game 5 (Havlicek next with 23)
1966: 22 points in 2-point grind-it-out victory over Lakers in Game 7 (Russell had 25, everyone else shot very poorly)
1968: Team leading 22 points in 4-point victory over Philadelphia in Game 7 (balanced scoring with Havlicek next with 21, Siegfried with 18 and Howell with 17)
1969: 24 points in 2-point victory over Lakers in Game 7 in his very last game (Havlicek led the way with 26 and Em Bryant chipped in 20)

Cousy, on the other hand, saw his efficiency fall off big time from its already poor starting point in nearly all of Boston's championship runs:

1957: .452 RS, .409 PS
1959: .454 RS, .408 PS
1960: .439 RS, .350 PS
1961: .436 RS, .450 PS
1962: .443 RS, .408 PS
1963: .448 RS, .407 PS

You expect a bit of deflation due to tougher opponents, but those are big drops on average.

Compare that to Sam Jones:

1959: .482 RS, .451 PS
1960: .500 RS, .424 PS
1961: .493 RS, .514 PS
1962: .507 RS, .475 PS
1963: .518 RS, .543 PS
1964: .491 RS, .553 PS
1965: .505 RS, .518 PS
1966: .521 RS, .524 PS
1968: .513 RS, .483 PS
1969: .481 RS, .464 PS

There are a couple poor showings there toward the beginning (where he averaged less than 18 MPG) and the end, but from around 1961-1966 you get some really solid production (22.7 PPG) on very good efficiency.

This doesn't mean that Cousy didn't contribute in other ways - he did. His assists jumped by about 1 per 36. However, it's hard for me not to think that Jones wasn't just a better playoff performer on the offensive end, and furthermore, I think the peak of his contributions came in an era that was more difficult than when Cousy seems to have been at his peak.

Cousy's coming up soon for me (after Sam Jones and Nate Thurmond, he's currently next), but I can't put him above Sam Jones quite yet.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 

Post#23 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jan 4, 2015 1:54 am

Dennis Rodman -- penbeast0, Joao Saraiva

Nate Archibald -- ronnymac2, Quotatious

Bernard King -- SinceGatlingWasARookie, Clyde Frazier

Sam Jones -- RayBan-Sematra, Moonbeam


Bob Cousy -- trex_8063

Elton Brand -- Owly

Wes Unseld -- Doctor MJ


OK, LOOKS LIKE A 4 WAY RUNOFF . . . sheesh!
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 

Post#24 » by trex_8063 » Sun Jan 4, 2015 6:31 am

This is a tough run-off for me. If I were to switch my vote from Cousy to any of the others receiving votes it would have been to Wes Unseld (not in the run-off). :dontknow:

Among the four in the run-off, for me it's super-close between Sam Jones, Dennis Rodman, and Tiny Archibald. They're all very close on my ATL.

Tentatively (I reserve right to switch vote)...
Run-off vote: Sam Jones

Very good, reliable scorer in both rs and playoffs (for the best team of the era); often their go-to guy in tight games. Totally decent defender as well. Did this in an era that was beginning to become pretty competitive, too. Body/athleticism/skill-set lend him a great deal of era portability, for those who place high importance on that.

EDIT: fwiw penbeast0, I might suggest putting the run-off in the thread title (some might be just be glancing at the title to see if it's in run-off, and not reading your post #23).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 

Post#25 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jan 4, 2015 6:41 am

There weren't enough spaces left for the names but I'll put the word "Runoff" in.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#26 » by SactoKingsFan » Sun Jan 4, 2015 7:09 am

Should have checked in and voted earlier.We could have had a 5 way runoff :D with my vote for Unseld. Leaning towards going with Rodman for his ATG rebounding and defense, but all are deserving candidates. I'll have to compare them a bit more before I cast an official run-off vote.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#27 » by ceiling raiser » Sun Jan 4, 2015 7:20 am

My vote is for Dennis Rodman here. I'm still not sure if he's the most valuable defender on the board (as opposed to Big Ben), but I feel like he'd be very helpful in most situations. In general I'm not a huge fan of offensive rebounding as a team philosophy, but Rodman extended a ton of possessions.

Younger Rodman was a plus-plus man defender, and could cover a variety of positions and player types. Older Rodman was still able to do a good job on bigs, tremendous strength for his size. I understand that at times during his later career he eschewed high impact defense for rebounding at times, and that is a legitimate concern (as is his time with the Spurs as a whole). He did seem to commit defensively in the playoffs consistently however with the Bulls, so I'm not as worried.

Of the other candidates, Tiny didn't really come onto my radar here, but I respect that he has an argument. Not sure if I'll change my mind, but maybe I need to read some more about him. Sam Jones might be underrated...those late 60s Celtics teams performed better offensively in the playoffs than the earlier squads did, and a big part of that success was Jones (in addition to Hondo and Bailey Howell). I don't know if I could vote for him around this point demonstrable evidence that he was a plus defender, or would be able to develop legitimate range (either or both would be true, would be great if someone who's watched him a good deal can comment on this). Haven't though too much about King here either, fun fact though...in 84 he actually won The Sporting News Player of the Year over Bird. For a while the two of TSN POY and NBA MVP were redundant, but in 80-81 the league moved from a vote of a player's peers to a media vote. TSN remained a player vote for some time, I believe into the early 00s. How much does it mean that their fellow players opted for King over Bird? Not sure, but I think it's something worth considering.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jan 4, 2015 5:36 pm

Runoff Vote: Dennis Rodman

I'm tempted to go with King here, but guys like him tend to see massive falloff in value when they falloff from peak. Rodman's more a guy who found a skill that allowed him to essentially specialize in adding value. I'd rate him considerably higher if not for the nut case factor, and frankly I don't see much reason to put him above Bobby Jones, but I'll still take him here.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#29 » by Owly » Sun Jan 4, 2015 7:01 pm

Runoff vote: Sam Jones

Archibald doesn't have the longevity, so whilst sure Jones' peak isn't as good the longevity (in terms of staying seriously productive) means Jones's career value .

King and Rodman have issues that would lead to you giving them away (King: Has been noted, but the instance of a team him away for neglible value and the main incident covered in breif here http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 91,660665; Rodman: we all know the issues, traded straight up for Will Perdue). When you have that I think that negative value has to be figured in. As far as basketball, I'm overly impressed with King's non-peak years, nor with Rodman from '93 or '94 ish on (with King this is more purely basketball wise; for Rodman a combination of compromising his D and ignoring shots combined with epic levels of distraction and potential toxicity).

Jones was consistently a very good player despite some non-ideal circumstances (the increased legacy of being in the Boston teams acknowledged, he had to sit for years behind Sharman - and Ramsey, he's in an era where most guards don't put up flashy numbers, and Boston's strategies don't seem to help offensive efficiency).
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#30 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jan 4, 2015 9:06 pm

So, Rodman and Sam Jones have 4 votes each, the runoff is pretty much down to those two then, I'll make it official sudden death in one hour if no one adds a vote before then.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#31 » by Clyde Frazier » Sun Jan 4, 2015 9:25 pm

Runoff vote - Sam Jones

Changing my vote to jones as I see it's come down to him and rodman. More impressed with his consistency and production over the years including coming up big in the playoffs many times. I still take issue with rodman turning into a non scorer as he chased becoming the best rebounder of the modern era. I do think there's something to that being his main objective and even putting defense aside at times in pursuit of it.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#32 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Jan 4, 2015 9:28 pm

Runoff vote: Nate Archibald.
Still think Bernard King is the most valuable player left.
Still have my bias in favor of peaks.
Still using time Machine thinking. Finding footage of Nate in Kansas City was more difficult than finding footage of Sam Jones.
I think Sam Jones could make a current NBA team but I don't feel that way about Ramsey and Sanders. Sam Jones is not performing well enough in my mental time machine simulation.

Character does matter. Cocaine was really causing problems in the 1980s. A very talented King was traded for, Michael Ray Richardson apparently played some of his best games on Cocaine. Richardson was lucky to not have a hear attack. Cocaine did kill Len Bias. Character wise cocaine was probably a bigger problem off the court then on the court. Cocaine made former NBA players like Ray Williams homeless.

Pete Rose gambled and Bonds used Steroids. I am looking for the best ball players who could help a team win a championship. I suppose I should hold it against any ball player who gets him teammates into using cocaine or causes a major distraction for his teammates.

So Rodman wants to be filmed wearing a wedding dress. So what. I can't judge how disruptive Rodman was to his teammates focus so I am largely ignoring the disruption factor when considering Rodman. During Rodman's career I disliked the Rodman haters. I was always saying "but look at what Rodman is doing on the court".

With me presuming King to be out, my choice comes down to Rodman vs Archibald. I saw just enough off your Archibald in high light films coupled with having watched Archibald regularly as a Celtic fan to feel safe saying that Archibald leading the NBA in points and assists in Kansas City was based on excellence not some fluke. I really don't like highlight films; I want game film. Any NBA player can look great in a highlight montage film.

I will be voting for Bernard King until he gets in but there are not many players remaining that I would consider better than Rodman.

Runoff vote: Nate Archibald.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#33 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Jan 4, 2015 10:36 pm

Changing my runoff vote.
Runnoff vote: Rodman

My Archibald seems to be out so I changing my vote to Rodman.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #68 -- 4 way runoff 

Post#34 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jan 4, 2015 10:39 pm

okay, 5 to 5. I know I'm a Rodman supporter but his playoff performances are definitely underwhelming whereas Sam Jones was very clutch. I will switch my vote to Sam Jones; I didn't hold it strongly and Rodman's playoff performances are generally underwhelming whereas RayBan-Sematra made a good case for Sam Jones's clutchness.
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