RealGM Top 100 List #69 --

[Joao Saraiva]

To a certain degree I'm happy nobody else is voting for Dennis. I have to admit he's the player I dislike the most. I just try not to be biased and I feel he deserves the spot.

Still Wes or Cousy would be great choices. Wouldn't mind seeing one of them winning. If Rodman doesn't go to the run off and one of these two does, I'll vote for them there.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

One nominee, Cousy drafted and coached another nominee Archibald.

[Quotatious]

Dennis Rodman – Joao Saraiva

Wes Unseld – Doctor MJ, lukekarts, SactoKingsFan

Bob Cousy – trex_8063

Nate Archibald – ronnymac2, Quotatious

Bernard King – Clyde Frazier, SinceGatlingWasARookie

Penbeast's vote for Archibald or King could get one of these guys into a run-off (obviously would be nice to get votes from some of the other guys still interested in the project, as well, like for example Owly and Moonbeam).

[Moonbeam]

I'm compelled to go with Bob Cousy here as my vote, but that doesn't help anything. At this point, I think I'd take Unseld over BK and Tiny, so I don't think I's be an ideal candidate to force a runoff.

What the heck - let me throw a spanner in the works and vote for Bob Cousy.

[penbeast0]

Sorry, to me Rodman and Unseld are the two best players of the group (probably in that order), I'll vote for the Worm for his GOAT rebounding and defense; that's an incredibly valuable asset. Someone else has to break the tie between the four candidates getting votes to see who faces Unseld in the runoff.

Dennis Rodman – Joao Saraiva, penbeast0

Wes Unseld – Doctor MJ, lukekarts, SactoKingsFan

Bob Cousy – trex_8063, Moonbeam

Nate Archibald – ronnymac2, Quotatious

Bernard King – Clyde Frazier, SinceGatlingWasARookie

[bastillon]

let me just say that I'm very sorry not to participate in this project but the last months have been very busy for me and had no time to do stuff like that.

I just wanna make a quick remark about Wes Unseld who is getting severely overrated here. let's be realistic, outlet passing is nice but does it really impact the game so much to take Unseld over guys like Rodman? Kevin Love is the best outlet passer today yet nobody would argue that it makes him the best big in the game. it's just a nice addition to your game. not a game changer. there are huge issues with Unseld's game. defensively, the guy just doesn't have size to be a great help defender. simply put, he can't block a shot to save his life. as a center, that is a far bigger issue than his nice outless passing is an advantage. we all know, he was basically a non factor offensively. gave you some nice plays here and there, but was not appreciably better offensively than Noah. in fact, he might've been worse than Noah on offense for all we know.

as for his MVP campaign, it has been terribly misrepresented here. let's look at the facts. Bullets started that year incredibly well, pretty much as by far the best team in the league. then Gus Johnson went down and there was a clear dropoff in their performance. in the playoffs, without Gus, they were swept by the Knicks with Wes getting completely outplayed by Willis Reed. make no mistake, he did not deserve the MVP that year. there were at least 4 players playing on another level. Bill Russell, Kareem, Jerry West and Willis Reed. the fact that he didn't really get MVP consideration ever again tells you about credibility of that 69 award. it has none.

[penbeast0]

I disagree with you about Wes's MVP. First, he took the team from worst in the East to best in the league in the regular season and the MVP is a REGULAR SEASON AWARD. Second, if Pippen went down on the great Bulls teams, you don't think they would be less effective even though Jordan was playing at his normal MVP level? Gus was probably the second best player on that team since Earl's scoring wasn't that efficient and could be replaced by Loughery and Marin more easily than Gus's rebounding and defense could be replaced by Ray Scott and Leroy Ellis. Third, the fact that Unseld never got another MVP doesn't make THAT YEAR per se invalid; he did get a number of other awards (including Finals MVP), as his weight and the long schedules impacted his knees, he became less impressive in the reb/pts area (the MVP year he averaged 18.2 rebounds a game, never again more than 15.3; it was also his second highest scoring year to his sophomore campaign).

Was he as good as Russell that REGULAR SEASON, depends on Russell's always amazing defensive impact but Russ was less effective than previous years and the Celtics slipped badly in the regular season (again, it's a regular season award). As anyone else? With West who missing 21 games with injuries and Reed averaging 11 reb and 16 points to Wes's 18 and 14 . . . Yes! And Kareem was still Lew Alcindor and still playing at UCLA so he wasn't in the competition.

Was Unseld's 1969 peak as good as some other greats' peaks . . . no. Was it the most valuable season THAT YEAR? Quite probably (Elvin Hayes had big impact as a rookie that year too so it's not a sure thing).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Switching my vote to Nate Archibald.
I am trying to create a Archibald Vs Unseld runoff. Archibald and Unseld are from the same era which is sort of nice in a runoff.
Archibald is my 2nd choice after King because I like players who are unstoppable. If King or Archibald were really unstoppable they would won championships at their peaks but the same is true for Chamberlain and Oscar. Semi-unstoppable is impressive enough for me.

I might seem to be favoring offense over defense but I also admire players who can semi-stop the semi-unstoppable players and I like shot blockers. The semi-unstoppable rebounder Rodman will be getting votes from me in sometime soon.

I don't know who I would choose if this was between Unseld and Cousy. What game footage of Unseld should I be looking at if I want to be most impressed by Unseld? I have already seen Bullets vs Sonics finals. I am guessing that I should be looking for game footage of a younger Unseld. I did appreciate Unseld but I think this spot might be too high for him.

Should Chamberlain have won the 1969 MVP? I know from more recent years that MVP voters get tired of giving the same guys the MVP year after year. Unseld got far more MVP vote than anybody else in 1969 but Chamberlain who was tied fortop in Win Shares (with Reed) and 2nd in PER and top in rebounds per game did not crack the top 5 in MVP votes in 1969 despite being the MVP the previous 3 years.

I understand the exitement that would be caused by a team going from last place in the East to first place in the East.

[bastillon]

I disagree with you about Wes's MVP. First, he took the team from worst in the East to best in the league in the regular season and the MVP is a REGULAR SEASON AWARD. Second, if Pippen went down on the great Bulls teams, you don't think they would be less effective even though Jordan was playing at his normal MVP level? Gus was probably the second best player on that team since Earl's scoring wasn't that efficient and could be replaced by Loughery and Marin more easily than Gus's rebounding and defense could be replaced by Ray Scott and Leroy Ellis. Third, the fact that Unseld never got another MVP doesn't make THAT YEAR per se invalid; he did get a number of other awards (including Finals MVP), as his weight and the long schedules impacted his knees, he became less impressive in the reb/pts area (the MVP year he averaged 18.2 rebounds a game, never again more than 15.3; it was also his second highest scoring year to his sophomore campaign).

Was he as good as Russell that REGULAR SEASON, depends on Russell's always amazing defensive impact but Russ was less effective than previous years and the Celtics slipped badly in the regular season (again, it's a regular season award). As anyone else? With West who missing 21 games with injuries and Reed averaging 11 reb and 16 points to Wes's 18 and 14 . . . Yes! And Kareem was still Lew Alcindor and still playing at UCLA so he wasn't in the competition.

Was Unseld's 1969 peak as good as some other greats' peaks . . . no. Was it the most valuable season THAT YEAR? Quite probably (Elvin Hayes had big impact as a rookie that year too so it's not a sure thing).

man I am rusty... sorry about that Kareem mistake, my bad.

you are giving way too much credit to Unseld for that turnaround. it was a bunch of factors combined that caused it. a lot of the guys were having their best seasons or close to that. plus, they were the best team in the league with Gus Johnson only by the record. by SRS they were 4th best, behind Knicks, Celtics and 76ers. Lakers with West also had higher SRS. now you have to consider that Celtics were coasting during the RS. you have to consider that Knicks became much better after Debuscherre transfer, and posted league's best record after he arrived. you have to consider that 76ers were playing without their center Luke Jackson with whom they were on pace to win 60 games. under those circumstances there is just no way in hell that you can call Bullets '69 the best team in the league without being delusional. they were a good, young team that surprised a lot of people and posted great record. that's it. they were like 5th best team in the league, even with Gus healthy.

I think you are also making a big mistake by completely ignoring what happened in the playoffs that year. sure, MVP was a reg. season award, but that doesn't mean that playoffs are not a valuable piece of information to look at. Bullets collapsed in the postseason. how is the league MVP so valuable yet, so clearly overmatched by Willis Reed? can you honestly say that Reed was not a better player than Unseld that year? I think you are also making a big mistake by looking at that season in isolation. you have to realise that with Unseld coming to the league and Bullets exploding for nearly 60 wins it really looked like he was their saviour and hence the MVP. but with the benefit of looking at that season in hindsight, we can clearly see it was a complete abberration, and that Unseld was not even an MVP-ballpark player. he was good, like a top-10 good in his best years, but he was never close to being the best. I guess if you just look at the numbers and wins, you can argue he was the MVP. realistically though, taking everything into consideration - injuries to other teams, other years, what happened in the playoffs etc. Unseld was a legit top-10 player in the league and not even close to being the best player on the planet.

if I am starting a franchise in '69 for one year I am taking those players ahead of Unseld without a doubt:
1. Russell
2. West
3. Oscar
4. Reed
5. Wilt
6. Cunningham

then there are also guys like Frazier, Hayes who could be easily argued as well. I don't really see Unseld as a top-5 player that year. you really have to ignore a whole lot to make it seem as if he was a legit MVP.

btw, you are wrong about Celtics slipping defensively. they were by far the best defensive team in the league in the RS:

I'll add the individual player numbers in a minute. But first, estimated team numbers for 1969:


Estimated Pace-Adjusted Numbers 1969

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Cincinnati    100.4
2.  Los Angeles   99.0
3.  New York      98.4
4.  Philadelphia  98.2
5.  Atlanta       97.6
6.  Detroit       97.3
LEAGUE AVG.       95.2
7.  Baltimore     94.8
8.  Seattle       94.3
9.  Phoenix       93.1
9.  Boston        93.1
9.  Milwaukee     93.1
12. San Diego     92.0
13. San Francisco 91.2
14. Chicago       91.0

DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston        88.4
2.  Baltimore     91.3
3.  San Diego     92.2
4.  San Francisco 92.5
5.  Chicago       93.0
6.  New York      93.3
7.  Philadelphia  94.0
LEAGUE AVG.       95.2
8.  Los Angeles   95.4
9.  Atlanta       95.6
10. Milwaukee     97.5
11. Seattle       98.3
12. Detroit       100.0
13. Phoenix       100.5
14. Cincinnati    101.4


Code: Select all

         Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
West      21.0   3.5    5.6    5.9%
Monroe    19.7   1.9    3.7    0.2%
Baylor    19.6   8.4    4.3    0.9%
Billy C   18.1   9.3    2.6    0.1%
Oscar     17.8   4.6    7.1    8.8%
Reed      17.8   12.2   1.9    7.1%       
Frazier   15.2   5.4    6.8    6.9%
Wilt      14.4   14.8   3.2    7.3%
Thurmond  14.3   13.1   2.4   -3.4%
Unseld    11.2   14.7   2.1    2.4%
Russell   7.0    13.7   3.5   -2.4%


and of course, when Russell missed games, Celtics lost every single one of them. tells you a lot about his value. that man was on another planet compared to Unseld. to Unseld's credit, Baltimore also had a very good defense and in huge part thanks to his rebounding and post-defense. but this is still a role player we're talking about. he's not a defensive anchor like Russell/Thurmond/Walton (to name guys from his era).

[bastillon]

I am looking at Unseld on B-R. he raised all of his numbers in his sophomore year. better scoring, better efficiency, more assists etc. wasn't even picked to all-star game. Bullets won 50 games with full lineup in tact. that really shows '69 was an abberration in terms of their record. Unseld was really not an MVP caliber player. he wasn't even standing out on his own team. you could easily argue that Monroe and Gus Johnson were just as important to their success. I see Bullets of those years a lot like the 00s Pistons. really a lot of good players across the board, but no stand out superstar.

not saying other guys that are candidates right now were superstars, but clearly picturing Unseld as MVP caliber player that changed the worst team in the league into the best team in the league is some serious revisionist history. neither was Wes a top-5 player, nor were Baltimore really condending for the championship. Wes Unseld was a very important piece on one of the very good teams. nothing more.

[penbeast0]

ok, runoff between Wes Unseld and Nate Archibald

My runoff vote is for WES UNSELD. He made the Bullets a contender for a decade with 3 finals appearances and the franchise's only title; Nate was unable to make the Kings a contender even in his superstar seasons. Wes's rebounding, passing, and leadership are extremely valuable; Nate's scoring doesn't translate as well to a team with championship contending talent, nor do his high assist totals though prime Tiny is more of a seat filler, especially for a weak team. When both had declined a bit, Wes's lesser years are still appreciably more valuable than Nate's lesser years. That doesn't mean Nate Archibald was useless in his post prime years, just that Wes's game held up better as the prime star role shifted to Elvin Hayes despite the knee issues.

[trex_8063]

Run-off vote: Wes Unseld.

Speaking for myself, I see many similarities between Unseld and Bill Russell......except where Russell was a GOAT-level defender, Unseld was "merely solid". He didn't have the length or quickness to be a relevant rim-protector; but he was strong, smart, and intense on effort as a positional man defender. Beyond that.....
*They're similar in that Unseld also couldn't shoot or score a lick; but I'll give him credit for playing within his limits in this respect (moreso than Russell, actually, though in part Russell has an excuse which was the Celtic philosophy of getting up shots and getting them up quick; but jsia: Unseld was reasonably efficient on his super-low volume).
**Unseld is on the short-list of best big-man facilitators, an excellent passer from the high-post (similar to Russell; maybe better).
***Great rebounder (not on Russell's level, but likely top 20-ish all-time).
****Good leadership characteristics.

wrt other secondary or tertiary skills (which pertain to non-boxscore value):
1) Outstanding screen setter (GOAT??). I know Russell is said to have studied how to best set a screen; though from what I've seen, he's got nothing on Unseld. His ability in this little niche skill was noteworthy enough that NBA TV gave it a few minutes attention in their spotlight on Wes Unseld.....complete with comments from his contemporaries to the effect that "running into a screen set by Wes Unseld was like running into a brick wall."
2) Outstanding outlet passer (again: GOAT candidate??). This you can often even see in his highlight reels: he'll be coming down with a defensive rebound, and practically before his feet have hit the ground his head is swiveling around to look up-court for the outlet pass. And he was so damn strong he could whip that quick two-handed overhead pass the length of the court (with surprising accuracy).


One could certainly argue that his MVP award was not deserved, but it's worth noting that EVERYONE thought an awful lot of rookie Unseld: fellow players voted for MVP at that time, and they picked him as the MVP. But the media voted the All-NBA teams, and the media voted him 1st Team, ahead of (admittedly aging) Russell and Wilt, as well as a prime Willis Reed. And the Bullets had improved by 21 games upon obtaining him. I'm inclined to think his impact must have been massive, despite what his boxscore metrics indicate.

Up to me, I'd have voted Unseld in a good 10 or so places ago. Just wasn't willing to give him my first-ballot support while Cousy was still on the table.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

it looks like Nate quite a bit of what he had with his first major injury in 1973-74. 1971-72 and 1972-73 Nate are his peak and he is playing with a very weak team.

We don't how Nate's scoring would translate to a championship contending team because he was not on a championship contending team in his truly great years.

The Kings 1975-76 season does bother me a bit in that the Kings only win 31 games and then team replaces Archibald an Jimmy Walker with Boone and Taylor, add Richard Washington, get another year of experience for Robinzine and Wedman and wins 40 games in 1976-77.

I do know how the scoring of the lesser version of Nate translated to the first Bird era Celtic championship. Nate's threat to score under the rim by weaving through traffic collapsed the defense on Nate which allowed Nate to hit teammates near the rim for easy baskets.
Old Nate could still weave through traffic like young Nate but not at the same high speed and not with the same explosive exceleration of young Nate. Old Nate would get some hockey assists dishing to Bird who then hits another player for the score.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

2nd half of game 4 1971 Bullets vs Bucks. The game and series are essentially already over so this is not a great look at Unseld
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OTs918TZ-qo
This game is better. Game 3 1975 Bullets at Warriors.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjCvD3YL8Y

[Quotatious]

2nd half of game 4 1971 Bullets vs Bucks. The game and series are essentially already over so this is not a great look at Unseld
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OTs918TZ-qo
This game is better. Game 3 1975 Bullets at Warriors.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uEjCvD3YL8Y

I've already posted these games in the Game Footage thread, but I'll re-post it here, if someone hadn't noticed (I know you did though, as you And-1'd my post there):

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlktiS0oUEE[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4YEre-_2fc[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSrJLP8trpw[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3tAhAaM7hI[/youtube]

[Owly]

The boxscore guy in me still likes peak Archibald. But the turnovers for the numbers we have is a concern, and as I noted in my last post the playoffs is a black mark for him. And he doesn't stay near that peak level for long.

For Unseld that year 1 impact is the trump card. Now the impact is seemingly exagerrated by wins (36 to 57, but SRS wise "only" -0.23 to 4.05, even that slightly boosted by a high pace). Players that fit niches may have exagerrated "impact" stats, and I'm reticent to say if other players improve it's all because of the new guy.

However a player with generally synergistic and therefore portable skills deserves recognition.

I guess a negative that the Hollander handbooks consistently raise is that they weren't sure that he loved the game (suggestions he'd rather be a teacher).

The flipside is the extremes of much coverage of the Hayes-Unseld dynamic. From "Who's number one" on the greatest teams ...

Thomas Boswell : “It was fascinating because it had personality dynamics between Wes Unseld – the ultimate unselfish, team player – and Elvin Hayes – the ultimate selfish, stat guy.”

Leonard Shapiro : All these theories about team chemistry and loving each other, not true on that Bullets team.

Ronald Dupree: But Wes knew that Elvin was a great, great player, so he had to do certain things to keep Elvin mentally in the game, he’d have to stroke his ego here and there just to get Elvin to play.

I think the "he wasn't a [typical] MVP calibre player" argument is a straw man because no one has argued he is, and just about all the guys that were ever serious MVP candidates from the 60s on are gone.

I like Archibald's peak (in spite of, or perhaps being more bullish on, converns about how that translates to a good team -more the latter-, and concerns on D and turnovers which weren't tracked - the former). But it's not a game that ages well, and he was always going to take a pounding with his game (maybe with modern medicine/training he'd do better? I don't know). Unseld's pick setting, rebounding, boxing out and passing skillset ages better despite also having early career injuries.

On the '69 playoffs whilst my preference between the two is Reed (for the year), it shouldn't be painted as Reed destroying Unseld. Wes put up 18.8 ppg on .574 TS% and averaged 18.5 rebounds. The one thing you could say is that he wasn't "elevating" teammates. But if you're not that into "elevating" other players narratives to begin with then that's not so much of blow.

I struggle to figure credit for those Bullet teams (initially pro-Hayes, then saw how inefficient he was and boxscore totals boosted by mega-large minutes, swung a bit more towards Unseld and quite a lot to a deep cast, coaching - and wondering how good those teams were - they were inconsistent year to year and weren't competing with great dynastic teams but a pretty leveled out league. I've moved a little pro Hayes during this project seeing how consistently good his teams were defensively. Then there's all the intangiables to figure out (Unseld's on court non-box score, Hayes' negatives for attitude, but mixed messages on work ethic).

Anyhow whilst I was inclined to vote more towards who gave you more rounded and tangiable contributions (who are still good intangible, effort, D, portable sort of guys) - albeit less historic players (probably Brand or Nance maybe Bobby Jones, though low minutes gives me pause, leans me toward Nance and then Marion above him), Westley clearly had an impact on his teams long term so my runoff vote goes to ....

Wes Unseld

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I was a Celtic fan for Bird's rookie season. I don't give Bird as much credit for the Celtics turnaround as casual observers do. Looking at the Bullets similar turnaround with rookie Unseld I notice how young Monroe and Marin were. To me that was a young team jelling and with Unseld creating depth by pushing the previous starting center to the bench.

Somebody mentioned those Bullets getting swept in the first round. Again, normal for a young team jelling but with it's core players lacking playoff experience.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

After closer investigation of what I could tease out of Archibald's stats and the Royals/Kings stats and players stats, I am no longer as happy with my getting Archibald into this runnoff.

Archibald has 2 great years. Then he has his first injury, and his assists and fg% and points per game all fall. The Fg% is still good for a volume scoring guard in that era. Archibald's stat numbers stop being the super numbers of his 2 year peak.

Looking at more Unseld game film did not really help me think Unseld belongs here in the runnoff at this phase. Unseld's teams were contenders many years but if that was my criteria I would be voting for all 1960s Celtics and Robert Horry.

Strange thing about Unseld's rebounds in the games I have watched recently is that I don't see Unseld really doing anything special to get those rebounds. I always though of Unseld as an ultimate box out guy. But I did not see any great effort to box out vs the Warriors and the CBS announcer even criticized the Bullets once or twice for not boxing out.

Unseld's outlet passes are pretty. I really like those outlet passes but a couple of them got picked off by defenders.

Unseld's rebounding is the stat that makes Unseld attractive but unlike Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq, Dwight Howard, Rodman, Barkley, KG or even Bill Lambeer who I see working hard to box out; I don't see the correlation between Unseld's rebounds and some super special ability as clearly as I see why the other great rebounders were great rebounders.

What I thought of saw recently must have been a bad sample or I was too tired to focous. My old foggy memories of old Unseld have him working hard and boxing out and not just snatching up mysteriously uncontested rebounds.

[penbeast0]

Wes Unseld sweeps the board in the runoff to win this spot so on to the 70s, that magical era of funk and cocaine cowboys . . .

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

The different media top 100 lists vary a lot. Realgm'so top 100 lists from different years vary a lot.

Unseld gets in quite a bit earlier than 69# on many lists.