RealGM Top 100 List #75

[Clyde Frazier]

I'm going to post the best remaining candidates by win shares

22. Dan Issel 157.82
35. Walt Bellamy 130.05
40. Shawn Marion 124.40
42. Chauncey Billups 120.78
44. Buck Williams 120.09
46. Horace Grant 118.23
47. Dominque Wilkins 117.47
48. Chet Walker 117.35
49. Bob Lanier 117.11
53. Bailey Howell 114.82
56. Jack Sikma

Can anyone give me a short run down of the bolded guys and what made then great and what would limit them now

FYI, billups, nique and lanier have already been voted in.


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[Joao Saraiva]

My vote goes to Klay. 37 points in 12 minutes.

Just kidding.

My vote goes to James Worthy.

Nobody wins alone and he was one of the major pieces from those Magic teams. I think he deserves the spot due to peak play, playoff performances, team success and even accodales - FMVP + 7 all-star appearences.

[penbeast0]

Well, I guess I'll leave it open for another night since (a) it's 3-2-2 and (b) I started it late.

[SactoKingsFan]

Anyone else have Richmond or Dumars on or near their radar? I think both should make the top 100, but not sure either will get in since there are so many solid candidates.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote for #75 - James Worthy

Throwing in a vote for worthy as I was basically between him and tiny over the last few threads. One of the more uniquely talented players offensively of his generation. Used a combination of length and speed with a great first step to make extremely quick finishes around the basket. Great finisher off the catch as well and had a nice array of post moves for a bit of a hybrid forward. Just amazing ball control taking advantage of his athleticism.

Definitely played to his strengths, which is even more important when you're helping a team make deep playoff runs every season. Elevated his play in the playoffs, which does make me question his reg season play a bit, but not going to knock a guy for playing better in the post season. Also made mention in past threads about how he probably didn't deserve finals MVP, but his monster triple double in the game 7 clincher is more than impressive on its own.

[Owly]

Of those voted for I'll pick: Bobby Jones

Rounded boxscore contribution. Elite and flexible defender. Low mistake player. High intangiables.

v Worthy - even PER a high value on scoring metric, has Jones better per minute career (albeit some 4000 less minutes). The other basketball-reference stats have Jones substantially better per minute and adding more career value (even above a low threshold). Add to that Jones' elite intangiables - including D, chemistry etc (Worthy good here but not close to Jones), and I have to pick Jones.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #26:

Bobby Jones (3) - penbeast0, Doctor MJ, Owly

James Worthy (4) - Quotatious, Moonbeam, Joao Saraiva, Clyde Frazier

Chris Webber (2) - SactoKingsFan, trex_8063

Looks like we have our run-off.
Initially I'm leaning somewhat Worthy, though that may just be my default/traditional ranking of them; I am slowly being worn down on Bobby Jones. Not sure which way I'm going to go, and may end up conscientiously abstaining again.

[Joao Saraiva]

Anyone else have Richmond or Dumars on or near their radar? I think both should make the top 100, but not sure either will get in since there are so many solid candidates.

I'm higher on Dumars. Probably will think about him in the 80s.

With Worthy in I think I'll cast my next vote to Ben Wallace.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

r
With Bobby Jones I am not sure if he really should have been 1st all defensive team all those years. One of those years Bird was 2nd team all defensive team. I normally tell people that Bird was a perfectly good defender as long as he was defending power forwards but I don't think Bird should have been 2nd team all defensive team. I am not sure what power forward should have been ahead of Bird and Jones but I suspect somebody was overlooked.

Bird and Jones were white. Being white should not be held against them but I hope it did not help them with awards. Bird got a lot of steals as a help defender using high Baskeball IQ to decide when to jump in and take a swipe at the ball and when to jump into a passing lane. Bobby Jones racked up the steal and block stats. I read the Jones was doing a lot off help defense.

I don't remember Jones having defensive success against Maxwell or Bird but that is me thinking of Jones as a man to man defender rather than as a help defender.

Seeing film of Jones recently I realize that I had forgotten how athletic Jones was (but that was highlight films).

Jones' rebounding numbers in the NBA are not that good. Was Jones's paying a price on his man to man defense and rebounding for his attention to help defense?

On the plus minus stats and defensive and offensive ratings with the Philadelphia statistician as as the source I noticed some strange year to year variation with Dr J and Steve Mix and others. viewtopic.php?t=1343246&start=140
I don't know what to make of it.

The stats in general rate Bobby Jones higher than my memory does. The stats do not rate Caldwell Jones as highly as my memory does.
In 1980 Bobby Jones has the best offensive rating on the team and the second worst defensive rating on the team while having the best plus minus. I interpret that as Bobby Jones and Mix coming off the bench playing at a faster pace than the starters play.

I am voting for the Archibald in this round though I may be underating Bobby Jones.

So clearly you're not alone in being unconvinced on Jones so I don't mean to single you out. But you spoke a bit here on him in a way that's a bit different, so I'll respond a bit.

So first, the connection with Bird. To me, watching early Bird (HA!), it doesn't seem weird at all that people thought he was All-D worthy. Also appropriately: He stopped getting the awards as he aged and changed his style. Frankly he seems to me to be the rare legend who seems accurately captured by All-D metrics because typically once a guy starts getting the award, he gets it by default long after he ceases to deserve it.

Anyway: Show me a guy with outstanding motor and high defensive IQ, and to me it's pretty clear that guy is going to be quite impactful on defense relative to others at his position. Typically the reason why people get confused on this front is that they mistake a flash of seeming genius with consistent genius. Bird though to my mind has probably the highest reactive basketball intelligence we've ever seen - and by that I mean, he read the floor and reacted for the brilliant play of the moment.

So yeah, linking Jones to Bird on defense with the recognition that he didn't see his game have to adjust so dramatically to me should be something for Jones' proponents to do, not his skeptics.

Re: Jones' rebounding numbers. I think I went over this before in this project: When Jones went to Philadelphia, in a trade that saw a big-rebound guy go to his old team, Philly's rebounding improved. It's crucial to understand how problematic it is to judge defensive rebounding based on individual rebounding numbers. Team do defensive rebounding as a team, and that means many players focused on boxing out rather than rebounding the ball - an attitude that it certainly makes sense to say Jones was wiser about than McGinnis.

Re: 1980 +/-. I'm not sure what you mean by Jones having the 2nd worst defensive numbers on the team because that's not what I see. I see him looking underwhelming compared to Cheeks that year, but still solid. And then of course in 1981 his defensive numbers look fantastic. To me that just reminds that these are not numbers without noise. When I look at them I look only for the most general of trends. And yeah, generally speaking, Jones looks fantastic with these numbers.

To be honest, it's fascinating to me how hard it seems to convince people in this project of Jones' greatness. We've been in the same tier in which Jones was always voted in before, and this time we have the benefit of +/- stats confirming what many (like Lorak) doubted before. I though he might see a significant jump in this project. That he hasn't really tells me that the voter pool right now has had a lot of turnover compared to prior projects. And that's fine, to be clear, just something I wasn't expecting.

Re: Faster pace. Well ORtg & DRtg adjust for pace, so there's no particular reason to think that pace would explain this.

RE: doesn't match memories. I'm not going to try to tell you your memories are wrong. It's entirely possible something will be revealed in future analysis that backs up something you're saying. I just try to play it as it lies.

I linked to what I thought was what I had been looking at but I linked to the wrong page. Somewhere I saw saw unadjusted for pace per 48 minute on the court vs off the court stats; not modern offensive and defensive ratings. Bobby Jones and Mix where playing at a faster pace than the starters and therefore had more points scored against them. I haven't found that source again. It was a rather irrelevant observation anyway.

Who people play with and play against will effect their on the court vs off the court stats. Again I am not saying anything about Bobby Jones here.

In 1979-80, 1980-81 and 1981-82 who was on the court at the close of close games? Was Bobby Jones on the court with Dawkins sitting?

In 1982-83 I think that Jones finished the close games while Iavaroni sat.

[penbeast0]

So, runoff between James Worthy and Bobby Jones

[ronnymac2]

Runoff Vote: James Worthy

While I wouldn't vote for Worthy here, I'll take him over Bobby Jones. Both guys played integral roles on generational teams, but I think Worthy's in-game peak was higher (mainly due to his scoring prowess), and because of the minutes issue, Worthy's game-to-game impact on average was more consistent. I also credit him for subduing his game when it's clear he could have been a 25 PPG scorer on a decent team. I don't think Bobby Jones could have landed a bigger role someplace and done what James did. You might say, well, don't you want the guy who can create more of an impact on title teams? To be clear, I think Worthy did make more of an impact on title teams. He was better in reality and better in a game of speculation.

I remember watching old Laker vs. Celtic games a few years back and specifically going in thinking Michael Cooper's defense on Larry Bird was going to impress me. It didn't, but what did impress me was Worthy's defense on Bird. I was surprised because I had never even thought about that matchup. Then I see Worthy torching an All-NBA level defender in McHale in isolation sets.

I don't think Worthy was super reliant on Magic Johnson. There was definitely a give and take there, and obviously Worthy and Johnson fostered that connection and made great use of the potential synergy between GOAT-level passer and GOAT-level finishing forward, but I think healthy prime Worthy achieves impressive scoring volume/efficiency without Magic there, too. Less efficiency, more volume (given a different squad). I like Worthy's defense, , he was an OK rebounder at the SF (poor at the PF), he was a solid passer, and his scoring is a tremendous weapon. Combined with the minutes issue — remember, Jones' minutes don't increase consistently from REG SEA to playoffs like Manu Ginoboli — and Worthy is my choice.

[trex_8063]

Runoff Vote: James Worthy
I don't think Worthy was super reliant on Magic Johnson.

I also credit him for subduing his game when it's clear he could have been a 25 PPG scorer on a decent team. I don't think Bobby Jones could have landed a bigger role someplace and done what James did. You might say, well, don't you want the guy who can create more of an impact on title teams? To be clear, I think Worthy did make more of an impact on title teams. He was better in reality and better in a game of speculation.

Agree regarding Worthy. Some months back (it may have been in one of the early threads of this project when Magic was a top candidate) someone posted Worthy's numbers with/without Magic, and he basically didn't skip a beat (not by averages or in efficiency).

And looking at his offensively skill-set, I totally agree he could have been averaging 23-25 ppg on decent efficiency for a lesser team (a team that hovered around the 40-47 wins range).

I do think Bobby Jones could have had a bigger role (that is: play more minutes) for lesser teams, though probably the degree to which he can take on a larger role is not equal to the increase potential we see from Worthy. I could see his ceiling circa 1980 (with a peri-.500 team) as somewhere around 17 ppg/8-9 rpg/3 apg with the good D, although likely lesser shooting efficiency (bearing in mind league pace around 1980, too).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Runoff Vote: James Worthy


I remember watching old Laker vs. Celtic games a few years back and specifically going in thinking Michael Cooper's defense on Larry Bird was going to impress me. It didn't, but what did impress me was Worthy's defense on Bird. I was surprised because I had never even thought about that matchup. Then I see Worthy torching an All-NBA level defender in McHale in isolation sets.

I don't think Worthy was super reliant on Magic Johnson. There was definitely a give and take there, and obviously Worthy and Johnson fostered that connection and made great use of the potential synergy between GOAT-level passer and GOAT-level finishing forward, but I think healthy prime Worthy achieves impressive scoring volume/efficiency without Magic there, too.

Was the game you watched from 1987? I think Worthy improved on defense. In 1984 and 1985 thought Cooper was far better than Worthy at defending Bird.

I think giving Worthy the ball on the at the right time while Worthy was moving was import to Worthy's game particularly for young Worthy. Worthy like LeBron seemed to try to take as few dribbles as the rules would allow. Magic was putting uoung Worthy in situations where he could get to the rim with one or no dribbles. I think a lesser point guard could have also passed to Worthy at the right time and place.

Mature Worthy was a better dribbler and shooter and therefore would not have been as reliant on a passer that knew where and when to pass him the ball.

Mature Worthy could carry the scoring load for a team and be their primary scorer. I don't think Bobby Jones could ever be the primary scorer. Jones was efficient but was never a volume scorer.

[penbeast0]

I agree on Worthy, I think you are underestimating Bobby Jones. Look at 1975. He was the clear best player on a 65 win! Nugget team . . . better than teams starring Erving and Gilmore and with less talent around him (Ralph Simpson, Mack Calvin, and some forgettable players). Yes, I think Larry Brown is a top 5 coach all-time and that was one of his better jobs; but I don't downgrade Kobe's or MJ's rings won with Phil Jackson (the GOAT); you need great players to win. Jones was a 15/8/3.5 guy who could have upped his numbers from there with a little Kobe/MJ style selfishness (not necessarily a bad thing), but instead the Nugs got David Thompson and (presumably Marvin Webster though he never lived up to it) to be the team superstars and Jones accepted the role as glue guy.

Could Worthy have been a top player on a good team. Yes, I think so too. But Jones proved it, on a 65 win team, and there aren't a lot of those in league history -- probably none since 1960 where we don't have at least one player already selected other than the 75 Nuggets.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I do think Bobby Jones could have had a bigger role (that is: play more minutes) for lesser teams, though probably the degree to which he can take on a larger role is not equal to the increase potential we see from Worthy.

Look at the Nuggets 1978 playoffs, who is Bo Ellis and why is he getting any minutes at power forward? LaGarde and Ellis back up Issel but one of Ellis or Issel is getting minutes at power forward. I understand that Hillman had some talent. Anthony Roberts is playing 31 minutes per game at SF. Bobby Jones is playing 30 minutes a game at pF and SF.

Why did Bobby Jones only play 30 minutes per game in the 1978 playoffs?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1978.html

At what might have been Jone's peak in 1976-77 it is more understandable that Jones is only playing 31 minutes per game in the playoffs because Marvin Webster and Paul Silas are on that team. With the 76ers the team had a deep front court.

Jones appears to be a guy a coach would want to play more minutes but there might be some reason to not play Jones more minutes. Maybe Jones played an exhausting style of basketball.

[Owly]

I do think Bobby Jones could have had a bigger role (that is: play more minutes) for lesser teams, though probably the degree to which he can take on a larger role is not equal to the increase potential we see from Worthy.

Look at the Nuggets 1978 playoffs, who is Bo Ellis and why is he getting any minutes at power forward? LaGarde and Ellis back up Issel but one of Ellis or Issel is getting minutes at power forward. I understand that Hillman had some talent. Anthony Roberts is playing 31 minutes per game at SF. Bobby Jones is playing 30 minutes a game at pF and SF.

Why did Bobby Jones only play 30 minutes per game in the 1978 playoffs?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1978.html

At what might have been Jone's peak in 1976-77 it is more understandable that Jones is only playing minutes per game in the playoffs because Marvin Webster and Paul Silas are on that team. With the 76ers the team had a deep front court.

Jones appears to be a guy a coach would want to play more minutes but there might be some reason to not play Jones more minutes. Maybe Jones played an exhausting style of basketball.

I've tended to operate on the assumption that it was his medical conditions (asthma, heart condition, epilepsy) that led to the minutes limitation, though I don't know that that's been explicitly stated anywhere.

[penbeast0]

Worthy wins, gotta run, anyone who wants to can post the next thread and I'll sticky it and stuff when I get home.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I see my runoff vote was late and would not matter anyway.

Runoff vote: Bobby Jones
Jones has stats making has stats that make him look like the best player on many of his team's. Jones has the coaches ( not the media media ) voting him on to all defensive teams year after year.

I don't remember Jones being great. I remember him being good. I am deferring to the stats and Coaches on this vote.

Peak Worthy was a great scorer.

Honorable mention to Terry Tyler for playing good defense on a bad team. I wish there were 3rd and 4th team all defensive teams so that maybe a guy like Terry Tyler could get his honorable mention.

A coach voted for Carlos Boozer on the all defensive team. Bird made the 2nd team all defensive team and while I believe Bird was a far better defender than many people think I don't know that Bird was ever really a top 10 defender in the NBA or the 2nd best defensive power forward ( the position Bird played on defense). The coaches may not be perfect at picking all defensive teams but I am going to trust their judgement.

[trex_8063]

moved