CavaliersFTW wrote:That play is incredible. Wilt was incredible. Count me a Wilt fan. There are definitely things he did that Shaq never did, like get his eyes to the rim at age 36. I believe the Wilt legends, even the cougar one lol (everything but the 20,000 women thing).
As for the play in question, I found this Shaq one in the first video I clicked on, around :53
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLmqDw7t6rY[/youtube]
Not quite the same but he finishes more explosively. A couple clips later he shoots a short hook then immediately puts it back with a one handed dunk - that's as fluid, powerful and explosive as anything I've seen Wilt do.
Shaq himself would probably say Wilt is basically a god among men. But I just don't see how it's not plainly apparent from watching what we have available of Wilt and Shaq that Shaq didn't play a more powerful, explosive and dominant style of basketball. That's to take nothing away from Wilt. There's plenty of clips of that guy throwing people around too. But I would be shocked to ever see a clip of him spinning around on the block, catching a lob with one hand and hammering it through. Maybe it's the equipment those guys played with, or maybe the game wasn't ready for that stuff yet, I don't know. But the difference between the two from a physical and skill standpoint is apparent.
2% of Wilt's career exists on film yet we have him catching peoples shots and running the break. We have MULTIPLE examples (at least 3 or 4 maybe more, check out the "lobs, deep catches, transition scoring section of the scouting video) of Wilt blocking shots then running the break, a-la that Shaq clip (though Wilt typically dished the pass, than ran off ball before the jam. Shaq did use his "handle" more often than Wilt on the break). The Wilt play I posted started by catching a shot. It leaves quite a different impression if you're the defender to have your shot caught in mid air with one hand.
As for Shaq's putback... putbacks are exactly one area where Wilt's game was visibly superior to Shaq's. Wilt was a much hungrier rebounder than Shaq, to the degree that he shattered rebound records like no one ever touch them.
http://youtu.be/_B7jVTJ_CIE?t=50m20s" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
And not that you in particular might believe so but I'm going to go off on a side note here and say I don't get why some people act like Shaq was some highly coordinated or polished player in the post in comparison to say Wilt Chamberlain. I can only assume the people in this group are focusing on highlights. Shaq's repertoire involved some pretty frequent use of off balance hideous looking shots. It happens in the post to every great offensive post player. Bodies collide, not every shot is picture perfect. But mix makers love to use the picture perfect ones as do fans of the game that upload single plays to Youtube. You get this effect where there is massive highlight bias towards these modern players. That's a big difference that modern players benefit from and I'm not afraid to call it out when I see it because I'm a guy who doesn't have an opportuntity to even use "highlights" in the specific era I create video reels of. 98% of the careers of the players I deal with don't exist. And highlights are the cream that has risen to the top. Highlights get repeated enough times and people forget the totally ugly or sometimes just plain routine (even if it isn't ugly) parts of the game in every players repertoire. You lose sight of how players score the lions share of their points. This is a run of the mill Shaq jump--hook to the middle off a crab-dribble drop-step.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrvL8w8XKk" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
The release looks nothing short of hideous. But it went in enough times that he made a HOF career out of it. It's Shaq's answer to a Wilt Chamberlain finger roll. In that it's Shaq's "middle" option. Both Wilt and Shaq use literally identical "moves" to get there, but Shaq releases that ugly hook where as Wilt releases a finger roll. And IMHO a finger roll in the hands of Wilt is a better shot from the middle than a hook in the hands of Shaq. They both achieve the same floor position but Wilt due to the nature of the shot he releases let's go of the ball about 3 feet closer to the basket, with a much softer and friendlier bounce.
Also here's something rarely pointed out that is absolutely crucial to understanding Wilt's dominance in the low block. Look at how many steps Wilt takes when he drop steps or spins to score baseline from the left block or right block. Even in the 16 foot lane, he requires no more than one step to not only get to the basket but further get all the way under the basket for a reverse jam or reverse layup with the rim and backboard between himself and the defender. Olajuwon has done that, but had to really extend himself, he more often than not could only get in front of the rim. That is literally video game cheat-code unfair. Just ONE step to do a clean reverse jam!? Dwight Howard for example requires 2 steps and 2 dribbles - that increases his chance of turning it over or failing to complete the baseline spin play exponentially. Shaq could get in front of the rim in one step easily, but like Hakeem rarely had enough reach to comfortably finish behind it.
Dwight's 2 step 2 dribble baseline spin:
http://youtu.be/ZSZ2FLhASi0?t=4s" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Wilt covers the same ground in one step with one dribble:
http://youtu.be/_B7jVTJ_CIE?t=26m2s" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Wilt's dominance isn't even about explosiveness sometimse. It's just the sheer simplicity with which he is able to cover ground and execute a play. It doesn't look like he's struggling to cover ground that other players have to really extend themselves to duplicate, or sometimes just simply can't even duplicate. There's a drop step at this mark in the video
http://youtu.be/_B7jVTJ_CIE?t=28m4s" target="_blank that I've never seen any player ever duplicate as far as how much ground is covered in a single step. It's when I see plays like that, and I try to visualize how many players are physically able to duplicate it, and I can't think of any, that I conclude Wilt is probably the most physically gifted player to have played the game. That and some of the heights he reaches on blocked shots, the ease of which he can catch shots or palm the ball, things like that. The court dimensions, the rims, they all look too small for Wilt.[/quote]
I enjoy our conversation. You're very knowledgeable. I gotta say Wilt does look like a beast out there.
There's gotta be a lot of what Mars Blackmon would say: "it's gotta be the shoes!" Those guys didn't have shoes that allowed for as explosive leaps and movements. Shaq had the luxury of much better tires. Who knows what Wilt would have been like had he had those shoes and had he seen Shaq play instead of vice versa.
As for the spin move, I think Shaq could do the same thing fairly frequently, and maybe more effectively. Here is Cleveland Shaq doing basically the same move in the same amount of dribbles, except he doesn't need to dunk it on the other side because his defender is on the ground:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXggfe3YQGo[/youtube]
He's at the tail end of his career, but it's not hard to see him finishing that with a massive reverse dunk on the other side, right?
And as far as covering much ground off the drop step with one dribble, I can at least attest that Blake Griffin does this about once every few games, sometimes using no dribbles. Check out 1:10 here:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36kM9eT-SrI[/youtube]
I know Blake's not in this conversation though.
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