How does peak Wade compare to peak Magic and Bird?

[G35]

I think when you look at Wade's 2009 season individually it is right there with all the best but when you put how he impacted his team it's not as impressive.

Heat's ORtg 20th/DRtg 11th

I really like Wade's style, except for some flopping, but I don't know how much his particular brand works when it's all on him to create everything. I think in a series Wade can take over with the best of them but over the regular season grind I don't know how well his impact holds up......

[ccameron]

He's a great pick and roll guard, but he generally doesn't go above and beyond what other star scoring wings have done; certainly he's done nothing that I would call Bird-esque. Wade has serious questions about his ability to play off-ball, as he's not a stellar shooter and he primarily makes his mark in pick and roll and driving with a head of steam. Good cutter and great offensive rebounder, and awesome finisher in general, but when we're comparing to the GOAT off-ball perimeter player he just falls short without reliable shooting range. He also just doesn't share Bird's sense of timing, where it was a catch and either attack, shoot or pass within a millisecond. Wade does like to hold the ball a little long for my taste, and I have similar complaints about James

I know you discussed this later on, but I think Wade's ability to play off-ball is a strength, and there are not serious questions about it at all. Standing at the 3 pt line and being a sharp shooter fine, but that is not what it means to be a good off-ball player. Wade's movement and cutting, as discussed are extremely disruptive of defenses in a way that a 3pt sharp shooter can't be -- and, on top of all of that, as the article referred to stated, they guard him at the 3pt line as well for good measure anyway.

Wade's stats, scoring, defense, etc. are all well recognized, but I think what is not recognized enough is what Spoelstra has recently said of Wade, that he is a "chameleon" -- he's able to play whatever role needed of him, and that has changed multiple times throughout his entire career. Lebron rightly got a lot of credit for his versatility, being able to guard so many positions, etc., but it really was Wade who had the flexibility to completely change his game and play an entirely new role. It's a kind of versatility that doesn't really get noticed and there are no stats for, but the team knows it.

I think taken all together, Peak Wade is very comparable to Peak Magic and Bird, just as peak Wade is very comparable to peak Lebron.

Yeah I agree. "Serious questions" was poor wording on my part. Compared to the average player Wade is a seriously dominant player even without ball-handling primacy. Compared to Bird though? I don't think so.

Consider that Bird was having 09 Wade impact while playing a role most similar to the 2012-14 Wade role. Wades impact, while huge, took a requisite drop with the drop in on-ball primacy where Bird does no such thing. There are skill set reasons for this and I go more in depth in that monstrosity of a post I made this morning. I don't question whether Wade would be great off-ball, I question whether he could be Bird-great. Big difference.

Of course Bird was dominant in a way almost nobody else was, and that was his strength. It's not ideally what you want Wade to be doing, but he was still very good at it when asked of him -- even in the later stages of his career when dealing with injuries, which also should be taken into account. If you asked Bird to play more like Wade he would be as effective at that either. These are kind of positional differences, no? I know both of these players kind of transcend positions, but they did have different roles, and I don't think either kind of role is particularly better than the other.

So the fact that Bird is better off-ball I agree with. But that's not what you want Wade to be doing -- and regardless of that he can still do that extremely well. So I think Wade's offensive ability is up there, and if not matching Bird or Magic level, the question is whether his defense is enough to make up for that. I think the difference in offence is small enough, and the advantage in defense great enough, to put their peaks on the same tier (not necessarily arguing that he peaked higher).

[Dr Spaceman]

I know you discussed this later on, but I think Wade's ability to play off-ball is a strength, and there are not serious questions about it at all. Standing at the 3 pt line and being a sharp shooter fine, but that is not what it means to be a good off-ball player. Wade's movement and cutting, as discussed are extremely disruptive of defenses in a way that a 3pt sharp shooter can't be -- and, on top of all of that, as the article referred to stated, they guard him at the 3pt line as well for good measure anyway.

Wade's stats, scoring, defense, etc. are all well recognized, but I think what is not recognized enough is what Spoelstra has recently said of Wade, that he is a "chameleon" -- he's able to play whatever role needed of him, and that has changed multiple times throughout his entire career. Lebron rightly got a lot of credit for his versatility, being able to guard so many positions, etc., but it really was Wade who had the flexibility to completely change his game and play an entirely new role. It's a kind of versatility that doesn't really get noticed and there are no stats for, but the team knows it.

I think taken all together, Peak Wade is very comparable to Peak Magic and Bird, just as peak Wade is very comparable to peak Lebron.

Yeah I agree. "Serious questions" was poor wording on my part. Compared to the average player Wade is a seriously dominant player even without ball-handling primacy. Compared to Bird though? I don't think so.

Consider that Bird was having 09 Wade impact while playing a role most similar to the 2012-14 Wade role. Wades impact, while huge, took a requisite drop with the drop in on-ball primacy where Bird does no such thing. There are skill set reasons for this and I go more in depth in that monstrosity of a post I made this morning. I don't question whether Wade would be great off-ball, I question whether he could be Bird-great. Big difference.

Of course Bird was dominant in a way almost nobody else was, and that was his strength. It's not ideally what you want Wade to be doing, but he was still very good at it when asked of him -- even in the later stages of his career when dealing with injuries, which also should be taken into account. If you asked Bird to play more like Wade he would be as effective at that either. These are kind of positional differences, no? I know both of these players kind of transcend positions, but they did have different roles, and I don't think either kind of role is particularly better than the other.

So the fact that Bird is better off-ball I agree with. But that's not what you want Wade to be doing -- and regardless of that he can still do that extremely well. So I think Wade's offensive ability is up there, and if not matching Bird or Magic level, the question is whether his defense is enough to make up for that. I think the difference in offence is small enough, and the advantage in defense great enough, to put their peaks on the same tier (not necessarily arguing that he peaked higher).

You're kind of talking past me at this point, and I don't want to keep restating things I've said earlier in the thread in more detail. The fact that Bird was far better off-ball is exactly the point, because if you're interested in building the best possible offense it's easier to do that with Bird since he doesn't need to dribble or have plays run for him to be a dominant offensive player. When LeBron came to Miami Wade's impact took a step back, and I don't think this would be the case with Bird. If you have reasons to dispute that I'd like to hear them, but to me the idea that Bird's skill set allowed him to more easily blend with elite players, ergo it's easier to build a dominant offense around Bird, is pretty sound. Miami was never anything better than an above average offensive team before LeBron, and while you can say Wade never had as good a supporting cast as good as Bird's at his peak, Wade did in 2011 and not only did the team not come close to Bird's in terms of offensive performance at that point, but it required Wade to take a noticeable drop in primacy and overall impact before they became an elite offense. This wouldn't be the case with Bird.

[ccameron]

Yeah I agree. "Serious questions" was poor wording on my part. Compared to the average player Wade is a seriously dominant player even without ball-handling primacy. Compared to Bird though? I don't think so.

Consider that Bird was having 09 Wade impact while playing a role most similar to the 2012-14 Wade role. Wades impact, while huge, took a requisite drop with the drop in on-ball primacy where Bird does no such thing. There are skill set reasons for this and I go more in depth in that monstrosity of a post I made this morning. I don't question whether Wade would be great off-ball, I question whether he could be Bird-great. Big difference.

Of course Bird was dominant in a way almost nobody else was, and that was his strength. It's not ideally what you want Wade to be doing, but he was still very good at it when asked of him -- even in the later stages of his career when dealing with injuries, which also should be taken into account. If you asked Bird to play more like Wade he would be as effective at that either. These are kind of positional differences, no? I know both of these players kind of transcend positions, but they did have different roles, and I don't think either kind of role is particularly better than the other.

So the fact that Bird is better off-ball I agree with. But that's not what you want Wade to be doing -- and regardless of that he can still do that extremely well. So I think Wade's offensive ability is up there, and if not matching Bird or Magic level, the question is whether his defense is enough to make up for that. I think the difference in offence is small enough, and the advantage in defense great enough, to put their peaks on the same tier (not necessarily arguing that he peaked higher).

You're kind of talking past me at this point, and I don't want to keep restating things I've said earlier in the thread in more detail. The fact that Bird was far better off-ball is exactly the point, because if you're interested in building the best possible offense it's easier to do that with Bird since he doesn't need to dribble or have plays run for him to be a dominant offensive player. When LeBron came to Miami Wade's impact took a step back, and I don't think this would be the case with Bird. If you have reasons to dispute that I'd like to hear them, but to me the idea that Bird's skill set allowed him to more easily blend with elite players, ergo it's easier to build a dominant offense around Bird, is pretty sound. Miami was never anything better than an above average offensive team before LeBron, and while you can say Wade never had as good a supporting cast as good as Bird's at his peak, Wade did in 2011 and not only did the team not come close to Bird's in terms of offensive performance at that point, but it required Wade to take a noticeable drop in primacy and overall impact before they became an elite offense. This wouldn't be the case with Bird.

I get your points, but I think those points far from settle this debate. Jordan doesn't fit with Lebron as much as Bird would either. Who is easier to build around doesn't even capture this question either. And 2011 was 3 very talented superstars playing 3 on 5 basketball every night, in addition to being a kind of pairing that hadn't really been done before, the coaching staff was completely focused on defense, with almost no game plan on offense except let Lebron and Wade take turns, so no their offense wasn't as good as it could have been. After that, when they did have a game plan and more established roles, Wade's drop in production had a lot to do with injuries. The times when he was healthy (see early 2012 season and mid 2013 season around the 27 game winstreak), the Heat offense was incredible, and Wade's production was very close to Lebron's. Not arguing he was a better off-ball player than Bird, but he was very good at it.

Here is a picture of healthy Wade taking a back seat to Lebron:

2012 season, January 27 - March 3, (after the initial ankle and hamstring injuries at the beginning of the season, before beginning to drop off at the end of the season with what woud require knee surgery)

Wade: 24.5 pts, 53.8% FG, 4.6 rb, 4.6 ast, 1.5 stl, 1.2 blk in 31.5 minutes
Lebron: 26.7 pts, 56.1% FG, 8.4 rb, 6.5 ast, 1.6 stl, 0.8 blk in 36.7 minutes

2013 season, February 2, 2013 - March 17, 2013 (After recovery from surgery, before the bone bruise injury that lingered into the playoffs):

Wade: 24.1 pts, 55.8% FG, 6.0 ast, 5.4 rb., 2.6 stl, 0.9 blks in 35.9 minutes
Lebron: 26.0 pts, 55.5% FG, 8.0 rb, 7.5 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.9 blk in 37.1 minutes

This may seem like cherry picking but it's not, those really are the only stretches those years when we saw a fully healthy Wade playing along side Lebron post 2011. And they absolutely dominated opponents during those stretches (Wade's health was the unsung reason they had a 27 game winstreak, as that stretch in 2013 mostly overlaps with the documented time when he was healthy). The drop in production that you are referring to had a lot more to do with injury than an inability to play alongside Lebron. And remember this is probably of all possible pairings the one that you might think would be most detrimental to Wade, since Lebron is basically Wade 2.0. If Wade can be paired with Lebron, he can be paired with any other talent in my opinion. All this to say Bird's off-ball greatness doesn't settle this question, because it's not like Wade can't adapt to situations as well.

[trex_8063]

I figured this thread would produce some indignant responses . Not to worry, though. As you've acknowledged, it's not as though you're suggesting Wade should be ranked next to them all-time; we're just talking about peaks.

And yeah, I think it's reasonably close, though I give the edge to Bird/Magic. Though I don't have a really specific peaks list, I likely rate Wade's peak somewhere in the 14-18 range, whereas Bird and Magic are both ~12-13 at the worst. So it is pretty close.

As I see it....
Bird vs. Wade:
*I like Bird marginally better as a scorer. Similar or near-similar volume (despite playing alongside outstanding scorers) on a bit better efficiency. How he managed it has been elaborated on already: one of the all-time great shooters (would likely only be perceived in a better light had he played today, with the increased usage of the 3pt line), amazing offensive repertoire which included fantastic off-ball movement, post-game, deadly accurate mid-range shot, 3pt shooting ahead of his time, equally proficient with either hand when finishing from <8 feet, exceedingly elite natural feel for the game, etc. Not a big margin, but I do think Bird was the better scorer.
*I like Bird better as a passer/playmaker, especially relative to positional norms or positional expectations.
*I like Bird better as a rebounder. Even relative to positional expectations, he appears a more effective rebounder than Wade. Was outstanding at using his lower body to create space--->part of what made him effective in the low post (both offensively and defensively).
*I like Wade better as a defender, although Bird's reputation as a defender gets trashed FAR MORE than is justified, imo. Bird was not a good 1-on-1 defender if guarding a SF or other perimeter player. He was an outstanding low-post defender, though, and an above average help defender (had instinct/anticipation that at times seemed to border on clairvoyant, and amazing hand/eye coordination: he would make some strips---cleanly---that the rest of us would commit a foul on 10 times out of 10).

Overall verdict: small edge Bird

Magic vs. Wade
*Obv Wade was the bigger scorer, though to be fair, I don't think it's because Magic couldn't. I think Magic quite easily could have gone for 26-29 ppg on good efficiency had that been to his team's benefit. So hard to say who I'd give the edge to as a scorer. I'll tentatively say Wade, but it comes with an asterisk.
*Magic very obviously the superior playmaker (to pretty much everyone).
*Magic's the better rebounder, particularly relative to positional expectations.
*Wade is clearly the better defender, and perhaps not all that close.
*I do have to mention how Magic provided match-up difficulties for opponents, too.

Overall verdict: small edge Magic


EDIT: Hey Quot, don't forget to vote in the #95 thread.