Peak Project #10

[Joao Saraiva]

1. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

2. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.

3. Dwyane Wade 2006
RS: 27.2 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.7 APG 27.6 PER 57.7 ts% 23.9 WS/48 7.5 BPM 7 VORP
Wade had a very good regular season. It's maybe not among the best choices for peak here (I have T-Mac 03 above him for example, and even Kobe 06) but it's close enough to those guys.

His volume scoring was fine, his efficiency was very good and for a SG he rebounded very well, was a willing passer and a good playmaker, and his defense was very good too.

The record for the Heat was not fantastic, but Shaq only played 59 games and Shaq was not close to his dominant days (20 PPG 9.2 RPG is still very good, but you know what I'm talking about). I think it was pretty clear that Wade was the #1 on that team. Still, they were the 2nd seed in the East.

PS: 28.4 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.7 APG 26.9 PER 59.3 ts% 24 WS/48

Against the Bulls (1st round) I thought his playmaking was superb, and he still had major contributions with his scoring and rebounding. From there on he was absolutely fantastic.
Against the Nets: 27.6 PPG 6 RPG 6.6 APG on 59.8ts%
And this was supposed to be Wade playing at his best. But apprently, he wasn't.

Against the Pistons in the ECF (a 64 win team and clear favorites to win the East) Wade exploded:
26.7 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.5 APG on 68.4ts%. That's some historical efficiency, specially for a guard! Both game 3 and game 4 are mandatory if you wanna watch peak Wade.

And in the finals... one of the best performances ever in the NBA. Coming back from 0-2, Wade just killed the Mavs:
34.7 PPG 7.8 RPG 3.8 APG on 57.2ts%.He was above 60%ts in 3 of the 4 wins, and scoring a brutal amount of points.

He's still the player with the highest PER ever in the NBA finals.

[Joao Saraiva]

Trex you should post the list so far in your begining post so we don't have to look it up. Makes it easier

I'll try to keep contributing if work doesn't stop me

[eminence]

Will get mine up in a little bit

[drza]

Sorry. Killer schedule this week. I'm actually dying to have a Magic vs Bird, Walton vs Robinson discussion but just can't. I hoped the mined posts I put in would spark some of that, but no luck. Anyway, I'll at least make my vote official. Give me just a minute...

[drza]

Vote

1) 1987 Magic Johnson
2) 1986 Larry Bird
3) 1977 Bill Walton

I decided to go with Magic. He is, in my opinion, arguably the best offensive player of all-time. He's also an incredible mismatch, which works much more to his favor than to his detriment. He had the ability to completely control his team offensively from multiple different locations on the floor, which just gave him a huge number of ways to create his huge offensive impact. In +/- studies, on offense, floor generals always tend to have higher offensive impacts than the boxscores would suggest...but in Magic's case, the boxscores already suggested that his offensive production was huge. His rebounding and post-game also gives a team plenty of options for how to build around him...big men could be chosen who were more either stretch-4 or pure defensive types (think Theo Ratliff or Serge Ibaka) that weren't necessarily good rebounders and/or didn't necessarily have a good post game on offense. In all, he was just a brilliant offensive player whose offensive impact may be the closest analog that we have to Russell's defensive impact.

Second, here, went with Bird. Still not fully convinced of this but haven't yet had the chance to flesh out all of the comps that I'd like to...Walton is knocking on the door pretty hard. But there's such a razor margin between Magic and Bird that it seems difficult to fit someone else in. Will explore this more in the next thread or two, I'm sure

Third, going with the Big Redhead. He may actually deserve to be higher on my list, but as an initial tie-breaker his injuries give me the excuse to put him at 3 here. In comparison to Robinson, he seems to be similar caliber on defense with an offensive style that has demonstrated to be high-impact even if it doesn't produce huge boxscore stats.

HM: Robinson, Oscar, Dr. J (all of whom deserve further discussion, even in this thread)

[eminence]

1st Ballot: David Robinson 95-96 - Last of the guys I feel can really be your offensive and defensive anchor (Moses/Walton I have just short) at the same time.

2nd Ballot: Magic Johnson 86-87 - Foul drawing was something I didn't completely factor in last time I compared the two, still think it's ridiculously close, so they both make by ballot. Both top 5 all time to run your offense. Best combination of assist generation and scoring ever from along with Nash, but neither Magic or Paul come with quite the deficiencies Nash does in other areas.

3rd Ballot: Chris Paul 07-08

[trex_8063]

Well, I'm gonna let this one go until tomorrow morning to see if we can get some better turnout.

[Dr Positivity]

Ballot 1: Bill Walton 1977

Ballot 2: David Robinson 1994

Ballot 3: Larry Bird 1986

Walton and Robinson fit my theme of dominant defensive anchors who offer a lot of offense including playmaking. Form there I had the choice to going to Patrick Ewing who's main weakness compared Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, etc. is ability to run an offense from him, or to go in another direction towards offensive stars. Another player I considered is Wade who is also a strong defender in addition to his offensive skills but his lack of floor spacing hurt him a bit for me. I am fairly confident that Bird's defense is positive so I will choose him in addition to his all time offense

[70sFan]

1 ballot - Julius Erving 1976
2nd ballot - Larry Bird 1986
3rd ballot - Magic Johnson 1987/1990

I change my mind on Robinson. His playoffs performances against good defenses are much worse compared to RS. His GOAT defense still gives him spot in top 15 (he or Oscar would be my next choices).
I wrote posts about Julius over Larry in last thread.
About Magic vs Bird - I think Magic is better offensive player, but Bird gives you great spacing, amazing passing, hustle and fight on the board and GOAT off ball play. Also, his defense is clearly better than Magic (but Magic was never for me "bad" defender, he just couldn't defend quick guards). I don't have enough time to post more. Maybe later

[mischievous]

3rd Ballot: Chris Paul 07-08

Can you make a case for Paul over 09 Wade?

[Dr Spaceman]

Ballot:

1. David Robinson 1995
2. Stephen Curry 2015
3. Dirk Nowitzki 2011

Hell week just ended yesterday, so I should have more free time going forward to contribute.

[eminence]

3rd Ballot: Chris Paul 07-08

Can you make a case for Paul over 09 Wade?

Don't have time for a full case, but in general I thought Paul performed better in the playoffs and had significantly more success with only a marginally better team around him. Wade was obviously the superior scorer and Paul was better at involving his teammates, I think overall Paul's contributions go further towards building a great offense. Defense goes Wade's way on this one. Wade's in my next 5 or so, so obviously it's very close.

[Quotatious]

It's great that you left this thread open a little longer, so I'll be able to cast my vote. Sorry, I was very busy at work yesterday.

Indeed, the turn-out is extremely low right now...Very disappointing. Hoping for a bounce-back thread in #11.

Okay, my votes:

#1 - Julius Erving '76
#2 - Larry Bird '86
#3 - Magic Johnson '87


I've already explained why I rank Erving over Bird, and I'll admit that after the debate I had with Trex, now I see that comparison as more or less a wash, but I still give Doc a slight edge because he elevated his game in the postseason more than Larry did, he had arguably THE best finals performance of all-time that year, he was a vastly superior athlete, with higher motor, which allowed him to be more of a "carry an entire team on my back" type player. Also, the fact that Dr J played the best basketball of his entire pro career (not just during his '75-'76 season) in the finals against Denver, which was the strongest team in the ABA that year, and arguably the strongest team in pro basketball (honestly, I think I'd take them over any NBA team that year, and that Denver team could've been a strong contender even in the mid 80s NBA when Bird and Magic played, especially in the Western conference), makes me think that Doc would've been just fine against stronger competition.

Magic is my #3 guy, because he's arguably THE best offensive player in NBA history (to me it's Jordan, but I have Magic as a close second), and he sustained his regular season level of play in the postseason (that's very important for me). The thing that makes Bird slightly better than Magic, to me, is Larry's superior defense, and his all-around shooting ability. Also, Bird had extremely comparable advanced numbers in a stronger conference (especially in the Western conference playoffs, Magic's competition was very weak, and his own team was extremely stacked compared to the opponents they had to face - they eliminated two teams with a losing record - 37-45 Nuggets and 39-43 Sonics, and the third team they beat, the Warriors, won 42 games, but they had strongly negative SRS, -2.54 - that competition is even worse compared to what any of the NBA finals teams from the East had to face during the 2000s - on paper, the only really strong team in the West that year, other than the Lakers, were the 55 win, 5.54 SRS Mavericks with Derek Harper, Rolando Blackman, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins and James Donaldson in their starting five, but they lost to the Sonics in the first round...). I didn't mention portability, because I don't think you want to take the ball away from Magic's hands, if you are fortunate enough to have him on your team. You want him to dominate the ball, because you know that a lot of good things will happen to your team if that's the case. Besides, I think that Magic's portability was actually pretty good - he played next to Norm Nixon, who was a point guard just like Magic, and they won two championships, made the finals three times, plus Magic's size allowed to be effective at four different positions, offensively.

Erving's advantage over Johnson on defense is even bigger than Bird's advantage, and Doc elevated his game clearly more than Magic did, in the playoffs.

[The-Power]

1st Ballot: 1995 Robinson
2nd Ballot: 1987 Magic
3rd Ballot: 2015 Curry

I'll be able to make a case for Curry very soon, hopefully.

HM: Wade, Paul, Bird, Dirk, Walton

[trex_8063]

OK, calling it for Magic. Thru post #34:

Magic Johnson - 24
Larry Bird - 21
David Robinson - 15
Julius Erving - 11
Bill Walton - 6
Stephen Curry - 3
Dwyane Wade - 2
Chris Paul - 1
Dirk Nowitzki - 1

Will have #11 thread up shortly. Thank you to all.....

[mischievous]

but in general I thought Paul performed better in the playoffs

Perhaps, even though Wade was playing through back spasms and still did roughly 29/5/5 on 57 ts%. They were 7, and 12 game samples respectively so i don't see that as really a large enough sample to tilt the argument in Paul's favor, when to me there was a clear gap in regular season play.

and had significantly more success with only a marginally better team around him.

Well no, this isn't accurate. Tyson Chandler, David West, and Stojaokovic is not "marginally" better than a Rookie Beasley, 27 games of a of a washed up Jermaine Oneal, and half a season from past prime Marion. THe supporting cast really wasn't comparable so an argument isn't going to branch off from that.

I think overall Paul's contributions go further towards building a great offense.

That's possible, although for me not super relevant. With a prime Wade it's been proven that if you put the right pieces around him, he can lead you to a championship. I'm taking that over have a top ranked offense.