Peaks Project #24

[eminence]

1st Ballot Chris Paul 07-08 Been over it several times. '08 over '15 for better ability to carry the offensive load, increased quickness to get to the rim and whatnot.

2nd Ballot Moses Malone 82-83 Animal on the boards, I dock him a bit as I feel he does need to be on a highly talented team to be as impactful as he was (drawing attention from him so he could hit the boards). I'm also a bit unsure where to place his defensive value as it seems to fluctuate a lot between seasons.

3rd Ballot Dwight Howard 08-09 Close value between this season and his next two, I chose this one as I think he filled his role a bit better and went to the boards harder. Also turned it over a bit less.

HM: Karl, Hill, Barkley, Nash in no order.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #21:

Charles Barkley - 10
Chris Paul - 9
Moses Malone - 7
Karl Malone - 5.5
Steve Nash - 3
Dwight Howard - 1
Bob McAdoo - 0.5

Turnout makes sad panda sad. Anyway, will leave thread open for a couple more hours in hopes of more discussion or ballots, then will call winner and move on.

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[70sFan]

It's sad that so few people take part in this project constantly. Only 21 posts compared to over 100 at the begining...

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 93 Barkley

Spoiler:

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP1MV2rSxIU[/youtube]

Ballot #2 - 83 Moses

The main thing that sticks out to me here: I think people tend to forget how rare it is when a team wins a championship in the first year after adding a major piece like moses. Celtics did it in 08, but heat failed to do it with lebron in 2011, shaq in 97, gasol in 08, etc. So i'd point to moses' ability to adapt to that team at such a high level a skill in of itself. He had a dominant reg season and performed even better come playoff time. What he did well, he did extremely well. That's enough for me over a more versatile skill set another player might bring.

Ballot #3 - 08 Paul

Spoiler:

Could change my vote by the next thread, but at least comfortable with Paul here for now. As an aside, only 6 players in NBA history have had a higher single season WS/48 mark than 09 Paul (min 65 GP). Going with 08 as it was his better combo of reg season and post season play. More than deserving of MVP that season, too.

Also think my namesake deserves consideration:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fraziwa01.html

72 was his best RS/PS combo, but i'd probably prefer one of the championship years (70 or 73).

A quick note about frazier's defense: people tend to say "racking up steals doesn't mean you're a good defender", but that's typically referring to guys who gamble on D for the steal. Frazier never did that. He got his steals by playing the passing lanes, and uniquely knocking the ball out of the players' hands by tapping it from behind. His size at 6'4" allowed him to guard both positions, and he was quick enough to body up smaller guys and make it difficult for them.

[SideshowBob]

Ballot

20. Barkley 90 +5.75 (+6.00 O/-0.25 D)

21. Paul 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

Spoiler:

22. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

23. Durant 14 +5.50 (+5.50 O/+0.00 D)

24. Ewing 90 +5.50 (+2.50 O/+3.00 D)

25. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

26. K. Malone 95 +5.50 (+4.25 O/+1.25 D)

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Coming up:

Nash
Moses
Westbrook
Mourning

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Apologies for missing the last two threads, I thought I'd have some free time but I ended up getting more swamped than before. I have plenty of thoughts for discussion but just don't have the time to get them down and interact. I'll post my ballot and try to chime in deeper when I can.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #25:

Charles Barkley - 16
Chris Paul - 12
Moses Malone - 9
Karl Malone - 6.5
Steve Nash - 3
Dwight Howard - 1
Bob McAdoo - 0.5

Calling it for Charles.
Will tentatively call it non-unanimous for '90 as his peak, but if anyone who didn't cast a ballot for Barkley wishes to chime in on the topic, please do so in the secondary thread.

Will have #25 up shortly.....

[ceiling raiser]

Ballot

20. Barkley 90 +5.75 (+6.00 O/-0.25 D)

21. Paul 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

Spoiler:

22. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

23. Durant 14 +5.50 (+5.50 O/+0.00 D)

24. Ewing 90 +5.50 (+2.50 O/+3.00 D)

25. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

26. K. Malone 95 +5.50 (+4.25 O/+1.25 D)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coming up:

Nash
Moses
Westbrook
Mourning

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies for missing the last two threads, I thought I'd have some free time but I ended up getting more swamped than before. I have plenty of thoughts for discussion but just don't have the time to get them down and interact. I'll post my ballot and try to chime in deeper when I can.

Which other bigs are +5.00 or greater for you? Just Shaq + Kareem?

[SideshowBob]

Which other bigs are +5.00 or greater for you? Just Shaq + Kareem?

On offense? Dirk, Chuck, Shaq, Kareem and maybe Hakeem in their later years, that's probably it.

[ceiling raiser]

Ballot

20. Barkley 90 +5.75 (+6.00 O/-0.25 D)

21. Paul 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

Spoiler:

22. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

23. Durant 14 +5.50 (+5.50 O/+0.00 D)

24. Ewing 90 +5.50 (+2.50 O/+3.00 D)

25. Kobe 08 +5.75 (+5.50 O/+0.25 D)

26. K. Malone 95 +5.50 (+4.25 O/+1.25 D)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Coming up:

Nash
Moses
Westbrook
Mourning

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies for missing the last two threads, I thought I'd have some free time but I ended up getting more swamped than before. I have plenty of thoughts for discussion but just don't have the time to get them down and interact. I'll post my ballot and try to chime in deeper when I can[/Spoiler].

Which other bigs are +5.00 or greater for you? Just Shaq + Kareem?

On offense? Dirk, Chuck, Shaq, Kareem and maybe Hakeem in their later years, that's probably it.

Forgot Dirk, eep. Obvious lock.

[70sFan]

Which other bigs are +5.00 or greater for you? Just Shaq + Kareem?

On offense? Dirk, Chuck, Shaq, Kareem and maybe Hakeem in their later years, that's probably it.

How much do Wilt, Moses, McAdoo and McHale have on offense for you?

[SideshowBob]

Which other bigs are +5.00 or greater for you? Just Shaq + Kareem?

On offense? Dirk, Chuck, Shaq, Kareem and maybe Hakeem in their later years, that's probably it.

How much do Wilt, Moses, McAdoo and McHale have on offense for you?

Wilt 4.25, Moses 4, McHale 3.5ish. Can't honestly say much on McAdoo - I just haven't really watched much tape on him.

[bastillon]

Ballot #1 - 93 Barkley

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG

Re: Barkley 93. It has been pointed out many times on this board that Barkley was incredibly inconsistent during 93 postseason run. In fact, Barkley had more games with <40% TS in 93 PS than during entirety of his remaining PS career (99 other games).

The problem with this run is the amount of poor performances it includes. Barkley's epic games during this run are well known, those 2 games vs. the Sonics were nothing short of incredible. He was an incredible player and had some incredible moments during this run.

26.6 PPG -- 13.6 RPG -- 4.3 APG -- .477 FG% -- .552 TS% -- 24.9 PER -- 24 playoff games

The man was a hell of a player. But his efficiency wasn't up to his usual historic standards during this run because he had a ton of poor offensive performances.

Barkley had 9 games with a FG% lower than .400 during the '93 playoffs (24 games)
Barkley had 11 games with a FG% lower than .400 during the '93 regular season (76 games)

If the Suns won the NBA Finals over the Bulls, this run probably goes down as similar to Dirk's '11 run. But the truth is, while there were some epic peaks there were also way more stinkers for Barkley than we were used to seeing. One of the most efficient scorers of all-time yet for 9 out of 24 games he shot below .400, that's unacceptable for Barkley standards.

It was a very very good run, but I wouldn't consider it historic due to how inconsistent Barkley was during this run as a scorer.

This sounds nice in writing and all but Barkley's offensive performance fluctuated a lot, some games he really struggled to make shots. You're defining his playoff run by a couple of performances and forgetting what happened in all the other games. His performance swung wildly on both ends of the extremes. You couldn't depend on him with the kind of game after game consistency that Hakeem and Jordan brought. The problem was his shot selection was sometimes really bad (stubbornly settling for jumpers), could be made even worse if he was frustrated, and his midrange jumper wasn't very consistent, it made him a very erratic scorer, dominant some times, lousy other times. In that playoff run, he had just as many games shooting below 40% (9) as he did shooting above 50% (9), his median TS% was 50.1%, median FG% 42.9% and we all know he wasn't exactly bringing a lot of value defensively. Bringing up a couple of games where he dominated completely ignores the other half of the story. Watch that year's playoff run on a game by game basis, and Barkley's play is downright cringeworthy sometimes. "Putting a stamp on games", as you say, was what the two real MVPs of the league (Jordan and Hakeem) were doing night after night. Barkley wasn't in that league.

I don't get your argument.

Me: Charles Barkley was legendarily efficient
You: Charles Barkley was legendarily efficient
Me: Charles Barkley was inconsistent and not super efficient during the '93 playoffs
You: But Michael Jordan had bad games so it's okay for Barkley to have a bunch of bad shooting nights

It's a stupid argument and one that doesn't even make sense because I showed you in my last post how much more consistent a scorer Jordan was in his playoff career than Barkley was in '93. Jordan had some bad performances but only 4 times in his ENTIRE PLAYOFF CAREER did he shoot below .400 TS%. Barkley did it 6 times in '93 alone.

Charles Barkley had 11 games of <.400 TS% in his playoff career (123 games)
Charles Barkley had 6 games of <.400 TS% in the '93 playoffs (24 games)

For those of you that suck at math, this means... Charles Barkley had 5 games of <.400 TS% during his 99 game playoff career outside of '93, yet he had 6 games of <.400 TS% in the '93 playoff run alone.

THAT is my point. Barkley was one of the most efficient scorers of all-time. But this run in '93 is overrated because Barkley was oddly inconsistent with his efficiency. He basically had more horrid shooting performances in '93 than the rest of his playoff career combined. Because of how inconsistent a scorer Barkley was during this run, I would rank it a little bit lower than most.