trex_8063 wrote:...
Notes, clarifications and questions...
- The McAdoo, Stoudemire defense criticism was more of type than degree (and included because of the context of "STAT" just having been mentioned and them being the top modern numbers guys, and obviously being offense first guys). As noted McAdoo flashed some of his defensive ability in the boxscore and was noted for that role in LA. This is why McAdoo would probably be my first choice.
- On era I would have agreed with those saying not to include older. Not because they aren't worthy but just because it's hard to meaningfully compare and where they end up doesn't really mean much (it's not dominance, it's not where you'd pick them in an all time draft/pickup game some people won't feel they know enough and will ignore entirely, changes in the game and racial composition of players is huge), not that there's an absolutely clear meaning to rankings of anyone but more so with the older guys.
- On Parish, meh "overstates" the concern (i.e. you think he's fine) or your opinion of how he played? Based on including '82 (I'd just go '81) I'd guess you're saying "meh" was a little strong for your taste and he's basically fine.
- On Love I probably agree the defensive concern can be overstated. I remember someone (Lowe?) saying Minny's (and Love's) interior D wasn't as bad as it seemed because they didn't give away many fouls. Anyway I was just trying to note the primary criticism in each case, this doesn't mean I necessarily have strong reservations in each area.
- One other thing that occurs with Yao (and injuries are always foremost) is the lack of passing. I think I noticed this when looking at BPM (which iirc multplies together certain areas of production and thus favours a balanced boxscore rather than specialists) and being surprised how (relatively) pedestrian it was, and chalked it up to that. How much one weighs that (or what spin one places depending on favoured metric, e.g. one might say "He got a 25+ PER without passing that much, so how much does it matter"). The other note here is if you want a full season his best PER and WS/48 is '05 but his assists production that year is anemic).
- Which brings us to McHale. It's really how much you think a low post scorers value is intrinsic to their scoring and how much you think they need to be warping the defense (and using that warping to create for others) otherwise the numbers are greater than the "real" impact. I know there's some on here that are sceptical on low post scoring and efficient team O. I don't know where I am on that (I guess my default is just to trust the numbers, and McHale was a productive scorer). On injuries I just don't know what to do - on the one hand it seems harsh considering them, on the other there's tonnes of other luck related stuff that goes into having a great year or indeed career (height; athleticism; co-ordination; access to basketball, coaching etc).
- I don't know how meaningfully I could compare 50s NBA with the first couple of years of the ABA. But my gut is a lower rating of the ABA in terms of the ABA being a second tier league. There's literal impact of knowing there's a lot of great players aren't in the ABA, but also what it means in terms of dominance (over peers), it's just hard to think of dominating a second tier league as as meaningful even if the standard had risen so much that it was better than early-to-mid 50s. But as I say there's also a leaning that say, Cliff Hagan being a star in the late 50s, early 60s was because he was great, he aged (more than the league catching up, though a bit of both) and then he was great in the ABA because it was a bad league.
- The injury-free is in reference to Haywood and is to a fair degree a counterpoint to the (implied?, I'd have to go back and read it) contention that Hawkins ABA-to-NBA falloff was more injury related.
- McHale doesn't need to be great to put him in the conversation. But there are perhaps 20+ people "in the [broad] conversation", how much one believes in his defense might be what puts him over the top and into the top 3 (or higher). If it's just on stats he's at the bottom end of the players listed. His defense vaults him up toward the top.
