Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem vs Lebron/Dirk/Duncan

[ccameron]

My head says Lebron/Dirk/Duncan, but my heart says Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem.

Those of you saying this is Lebron/Dirk/Duncan in a landslide -- really try to imagine facing Kobe/Granett/Hakeem in a 7 game series. How would that trio make you feel? That emotion you feel is fear. I don't care who they are facing, that's an intimidating trio.

It's a coin toss for me. I'm going with Kobe/Garnett/Hakeem just to be contrary to those saying this is an easy choice, but it could be either one.

[Rapcity_11]

You guys who keep pointing to Bosh/Love as not thriving beside Lebron; you realize they were 3rd options, right? When one of Klay/Draymonds numbers go down this year, are we to believe that Durant cant thrive next (insert type) player?

Well prior to joining Lebron Bosh and Love were 1st options and both were seen as better offensive players than Pau Gasol who improved his numbers dramatically playing next to Kobe. You can make any player on your team a 3rd option (or 1st option) if that is the desire of the coaching staff. The trick is getting the most out of every player. Adding more offensive firepower does not always equate to a better team/synergy if it sacrifices other aspects. The Warriors are finding that out right now that Bogut was a big part of their defensive success.....

You might want to check out Pau's numbers in 06 and 07.

Bogut sure had a tremoundous impact on the Dallas defense...

[mtron929]

I almost feel like in these comparisons, you need to think about both teams existing in the NBA and seeing which one of the two will dominate more. Since both of these teams will dominate, the question essentially boils down to who will beat one another more frequently. And I have to say.. I have got to go with team 2. In general, we all know that Kobe will be the main offensive force in team 1 and for the most part, he will have the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and take most of the shots on that team. That has to be a given if we know anything about the mental make-up of Kobe. And in team 2, you will probably have Lebron/Dirk sharing that role. And in a tight game, I just trust Lebron/Dirk to be more efficient compared to Kobe and thus in a super team where Kobe is the main option, I think there is a relatively bad ceiling there to beat another super team due to Kobe's relative inefficiency yet high volume shooting mentality.

[Jedi32]

I almost feel like in these comparisons, you need to think about both teams existing in the NBA and seeing which one of the two will dominate more. Since both of these teams will dominate, the question essentially boils down to who will beat one another more frequently. And I have to say.. I have got to go with team 2. In general, we all know that Kobe will be the main offensive force in team 1 and for the most part, he will have the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and take most of the shots on that team. That has to be a given if we know anything about the mental make-up of Kobe. And in team 2, you will probably have Lebron/Dirk sharing that role. And in a tight game, I just trust Lebron/Dirk to be more efficient compared to Kobe and thus in a super team where Kobe is the main option, I think there is a relatively bad ceiling there to beat another super team due to Kobe's relative inefficiency yet high volume shooting mentality.

well as Q said when kobe was in his prime he averaged 18 shots a game with a so called super team. there's no reason to believe his volume would go up, and i'm pretty sure that kobe wouldn't be taking all the 4th quarter shots with someone like dream who unlike shaq had a pretty nice jump shot, and has shot 70% or better on his free throws 11 times during his career.

[mtron929]

I almost feel like in these comparisons, you need to think about both teams existing in the NBA and seeing which one of the two will dominate more. Since both of these teams will dominate, the question essentially boils down to who will beat one another more frequently. And I have to say.. I have got to go with team 2. In general, we all know that Kobe will be the main offensive force in team 1 and for the most part, he will have the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter and take most of the shots on that team. That has to be a given if we know anything about the mental make-up of Kobe. And in team 2, you will probably have Lebron/Dirk sharing that role. And in a tight game, I just trust Lebron/Dirk to be more efficient compared to Kobe and thus in a super team where Kobe is the main option, I think there is a relatively bad ceiling there to beat another super team due to Kobe's relative inefficiency yet high volume shooting mentality.

well as Q said when kobe was in his prime he averaged 18 shots a game with a so called super team. there's no reason to believe his volume would go up, and i'm pretty sure that kobe wouldn't be taking all the 4th quarter shots with someone like dream who unlike shaq had a pretty nice jump shot, and has shot 70% or better on his free throws 11 times during his career.

Against an inferior team, he won't. Against a team led by Lebron/Dirk/Duncan, I think his competitive edge to prove that he is the best player will be the detriment of the team. A lot of ball hogging that Kobe does with shots being taken while being tripled team, these are impulsive decisions that he does because he wants to prove something and I think is largely uncontrollable.

Then again, this is all just speculation.

[Texas Chuck]

You guys who keep pointing to Bosh/Love as not thriving beside Lebron; you realize they were 3rd options, right? When one of Klay/Draymonds numbers go down this year, are we to believe that Durant cant thrive next (insert type) player?

Well prior to joining Lebron Bosh and Love were 1st options and both were seen as better offensive players than Pau Gasol who improved his numbers dramatically playing next to Kobe. You can make any player on your team a 3rd option (or 1st option) if that is the desire of the coaching staff. The trick is getting the most out of every player. Adding more offensive firepower does not always equate to a better team/synergy if it sacrifices other aspects. The Warriors are finding that out right now that Bogut was a big part of their defensive success.....

You might want to check out Pau's numbers in 06 and 07.

Bogut sure had a tremoundous impact on the Dallas defense...

Agree Pau was the best offensive player of those 3. And I'm not sure peak David Robinson could save this Mavs defense--at least not if Dirk and Barea are going to play 38 minutes....

I do think the Warriors will miss Bogut some, but not enough to matter. Durant plays big enough now that Green can and should be almost a full-time 5 for them anyway.

[Texas Chuck]

Those of you saying this is Lebron/Dirk/Duncan in a landslide -- really try to imagine facing Kobe/Granett/Hakeem in a 7 game series. How would that trio make you feel? That emotion you feel is fear. I don't care who they are facing, that's an intimidating trio.

.

I'm a landslide guy, but make no mistake, if I got the other 3 I would laugh my way to a number of titles as well. Clearly a very talented trio. It's just the other trio is even more talented and on paper at least fits together better with much clearer roles. Plus they have the 2 best players which is a pretty huge deal.

[mischievous]

Those of you saying this is Lebron/Dirk/Duncan in a landslide -- really try to imagine facing Kobe/Granett/Hakeem in a 7 game series. How would that trio make you feel? That emotion you feel is fear. I don't care who they are facing, that's an intimidating trio.

.

I'm a landslide guy, but make no mistake, if I got the other 3 I would laugh my way to a number of titles as well. Clearly a very talented trio. It's just the other trio is even more talented and on paper at least fits together better with much clearer roles. Plus they have the 2 best players which is a pretty huge deal.

I would pick the Lebron duo as well, but in a vacuum is Duncan really better than Hakeem? I mean i rank him higher based on longevity and accomplishments but i'm not sure if he's actually better ability wise.

[eagereyez]

I'm not sure how much Garnett's defense is really going to affect Dirk. Dirk is arguably the greatest offensive PF in history. I don't remember him struggling much in head to heads against Garnett.

The reason Love/Bosh struggled to play with Lebron is because Lebron needs the paint. Those two aren't elite shooters, and neither was Wade. They all had to sacrifice parts of their game for Lebron. However, shooters like Kyrie thrive next to him, and Dirk is the GOAT shooter at PF. They should have no problems clicking offensively, and I don't think there's a defensive combination that could stop them. Gotta go with the second trio.

[2klegend]

I'm going with the Kobe/KG/Hakeem trio here. The defense would be insane.

[Rapcity_11]

Well prior to joining Lebron Bosh and Love were 1st options and both were seen as better offensive players than Pau Gasol who improved his numbers dramatically playing next to Kobe. You can make any player on your team a 3rd option (or 1st option) if that is the desire of the coaching staff. The trick is getting the most out of every player. Adding more offensive firepower does not always equate to a better team/synergy if it sacrifices other aspects. The Warriors are finding that out right now that Bogut was a big part of their defensive success.....

You might want to check out Pau's numbers in 06 and 07.

Bogut sure had a tremoundous impact on the Dallas defense...

Agree Pau was the best offensive player of those 3. And I'm not sure peak David Robinson could save this Mavs defense--at least not if Dirk and Barea are going to play 38 minutes....

I do think the Warriors will miss Bogut some, but not enough to matter. Durant plays big enough now that Green can and should be almost a full-time 5 for them anyway.

My point was actually that saying Pau's numbers improved dramatically next to Kobe is well...wrong.

I feel like non-Warriors fans tend to overrated Bogut's impact on the Warriors. He was really inconsistent and they were better without him pretty damn often.

[drza]

I'm not sure how much Garnett's defense is really going to affect Dirk. Dirk is arguably the greatest offensive PF in history. I don't remember him struggling much in head to heads against Garnett.

FWIW, here was how Dirk faired against Garnett from the start of the 2007-08 season to the end of the 2011-12 season. These numbers are for Dirk against Boston with Garnett on the floor (198.8 minutes, 7 games) and with him not on the floor (184.1 min, 10 games, includes three complete games that KG didn't play in).

Dirk (per 36 min) KG off-court: 29.9 points, 59.5% TS, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.8 TO, 1.2 blk, 0.2 stl
Dirk (per 36 min) KG on-court: 21.0 points, 57.3% TS, 7.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 3.4 TO, 0.4 blk, 0.3 stl

While KG didn't exactly blank him, I think it's fair to say that Garnett's presence had a pretty massive impact on Dirk's output during those years. And KG's role in this hypothetical would be most similar to his role on those Celtics, where he'd be able to focus more on defense than he was able to in Minnesota. Take that as you will.

[zonedefense]

I'm not sure how much Garnett's defense is really going to affect Dirk. Dirk is arguably the greatest offensive PF in history. I don't remember him struggling much in head to heads against Garnett.

FWIW, here was how Dirk faired against Garnett from the start of the 2007-08 season to the end of the 2011-12 season. These numbers are for Dirk against Boston with Garnett on the floor (198.8 minutes, 7 games) and with him not on the floor (184.1 min, 10 games, includes three complete games that KG didn't play in).

Dirk (per 36 min) KG off-court: 29.9 points, 59.5% TS, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.8 TO, 1.2 blk, 0.2 stl
Dirk (per 36 min) KG on-court: 21.0 points, 57.3% TS, 7.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 3.4 TO, 0.4 blk, 0.3 stl

While KG didn't exactly blank him, I think it's fair to say that Garnett's presence had a pretty massive impact on Dirk's output during those years. And KG's role in this hypothetical would be most similar to his role on those Celtics, where he'd be able to focus more on defense than he was able to in Minnesota. Take that as you will.

KG wasn`t matched up with Dirk for most of his career (just like Duncan) because:
a) His help defense was to important to the team to waste him trying to deny one player
b) In his prime Dirk was to quick to be defended by any real bigman including Garnett

As a Dirk fan I will never forget his series against the Wolves...while KG was impressive as well Dirk was unstoppable on offense.

[drza]

I'm not sure how much Garnett's defense is really going to affect Dirk. Dirk is arguably the greatest offensive PF in history. I don't remember him struggling much in head to heads against Garnett.

FWIW, here was how Dirk faired against Garnett from the start of the 2007-08 season to the end of the 2011-12 season. These numbers are for Dirk against Boston with Garnett on the floor (198.8 minutes, 7 games) and with him not on the floor (184.1 min, 10 games, includes three complete games that KG didn't play in).

Dirk (per 36 min) KG off-court: 29.9 points, 59.5% TS, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.8 TO, 1.2 blk, 0.2 stl
Dirk (per 36 min) KG on-court: 21.0 points, 57.3% TS, 7.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 3.4 TO, 0.4 blk, 0.3 stl

While KG didn't exactly blank him, I think it's fair to say that Garnett's presence had a pretty massive impact on Dirk's output during those years. And KG's role in this hypothetical would be most similar to his role on those Celtics, where he'd be able to focus more on defense than he was able to in Minnesota. Take that as you will.

KG wasn`t matched up with Dirk for most of his career (just like Duncan) because:
a) His help defense was to important to the team to waste him trying to deny one player
b) In his prime Dirk was to quick to be defended by any real bigman including Garnett

As a Dirk fan I will never forget his series against the Wolves...while KG was impressive as well Dirk was unstoppable on offense.

Again, these numbers were specifically from 2008 - 2012. One reason was because KG's role in this hypothetical would be more similar to the Boston role. The other reason is that, in fact, KG did guard Dirk pretty much exclusively during his time in Boston. You make a good point that in Minnesota they didn't always guard each other (2002 playoffs a famous example), but in Boston Garnett was essentially only on Dirk when they were both in the game.

And again, tying it back to this thread, Garnett and Hakeem would give each other much more lattitude as far as the amount of help defense required. And yes, Dirk is one of the greatest offensive talents that the league has ever seen and no one was going to just erase him. But Garnett's defense definitely had big impact, even on Dirk, and it could be quantifiably shown. As far as Dirk' being too quick for any big, remember, KG came into the league guarding wings and continued to do so on full-time levels even up through at least '03. In '03 he guarded Wizards MJ, and he famously was the primary defender on a then-peaking Tracy McGrady that was destroying the league. While Dirk was quick to be a 7-footer, he wasn't TMac or even old Jordan quick. But as you pointed out, in real life Minnesota KG was too valuable and necessary to everything that his team did to always put in that level of focus on primarily defense. But in the situation laid out in this thread, he wouldn't have been.

[agentofatlas]

FWIW, here was how Dirk faired against Garnett from the start of the 2007-08 season to the end of the 2011-12 season. These numbers are for Dirk against Boston with Garnett on the floor (198.8 minutes, 7 games) and with him not on the floor (184.1 min, 10 games, includes three complete games that KG didn't play in).

Dirk (per 36 min) KG off-court: 29.9 points, 59.5% TS, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.8 TO, 1.2 blk, 0.2 stl
Dirk (per 36 min) KG on-court: 21.0 points, 57.3% TS, 7.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 3.4 TO, 0.4 blk, 0.3 stl

While KG didn't exactly blank him, I think it's fair to say that Garnett's presence had a pretty massive impact on Dirk's output during those years. And KG's role in this hypothetical would be most similar to his role on those Celtics, where he'd be able to focus more on defense than he was able to in Minnesota. Take that as you will.

KG wasn`t matched up with Dirk for most of his career (just like Duncan) because:
a) His help defense was to important to the team to waste him trying to deny one player
b) In his prime Dirk was to quick to be defended by any real bigman including Garnett

As a Dirk fan I will never forget his series against the Wolves...while KG was impressive as well Dirk was unstoppable on offense.

Again, these numbers were specifically from 2008 - 2012. One reason was because KG's role in this hypothetical would be more similar to the Boston role. The other reason is that, in fact, KG did guard Dirk pretty much exclusively during his time in Boston. You make a good point that in Minnesota they didn't always guard each other (2002 playoffs a famous example), but in Boston Garnett was essentially only on Dirk when they were both in the game.

And again, tying it back to this thread, Garnett and Hakeem would give each other much more lattitude as far as the amount of help defense required. And yes, Dirk is one of the greatest offensive talents that the league has ever seen and no one was going to just erase him. But Garnett's defense definitely had big impact, even on Dirk, and it could be quantifiably shown. As far as Dirk' being too quick for any big, remember, KG came into the league guarding wings and continued to do so on full-time levels even up through at least '03. In '03 he guarded Wizards MJ, and he famously was the primary defender on a then-peaking Tracy McGrady that was destroying the league. While Dirk was quick to be a 7-footer, he wasn't TMac or even old Jordan quick. But as you pointed out, in real life Minnesota KG was too valuable and necessary to everything that his team did to always put in that level of focus on primarily defense. But in the situation laid out in this thread, he wouldn't have been.

Dirk was quick and agile. Its one the traits that got him noticed in the International vs USA game. And I'm pretty sure he's quicker than 2003 old Jordan man c'mon. Plus the threat of the jumper adds to his quickness. Gives me an excuse to post this:

Watch on YouTube

Also I remember that 2002 series man. It was great. KG played well but Dirk was just on fire.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not sure how much Garnett's defense is really going to affect Dirk. Dirk is arguably the greatest offensive PF in history. I don't remember him struggling much in head to heads against Garnett.

FWIW, here was how Dirk faired against Garnett from the start of the 2007-08 season to the end of the 2011-12 season. These numbers are for Dirk against Boston with Garnett on the floor (198.8 minutes, 7 games) and with him not on the floor (184.1 min, 10 games, includes three complete games that KG didn't play in).

Dirk (per 36 min) KG off-court: 29.9 points, 59.5% TS, 9.6 reb, 2.5 ast, 1.8 TO, 1.2 blk, 0.2 stl
Dirk (per 36 min) KG on-court: 21.0 points, 57.3% TS, 7.6 reb, 1.6 ast, 3.4 TO, 0.4 blk, 0.3 stl

While KG didn't exactly blank him, I think it's fair to say that Garnett's presence had a pretty massive impact on Dirk's output during those years. And KG's role in this hypothetical would be most similar to his role on those Celtics, where he'd be able to focus more on defense than he was able to in Minnesota. Take that as you will.

Do you have the Minny numbers too? More for curiousity than anything. Your points about how KG would be deployed are clearly valid.

[UDRIH14]

give me team 2 cause of dirk, nobody can guard him...could care less what kgfans want to say, i dont play the what if game...

[Texas Chuck]

give me team 2 cause of dirk, nobody can guard him...could care less what kgfans want to say, i dont play the what if game...

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The "KG fans" itt acknowledged KG can't shut down Dirk while providing some evidence that his presence does at least make it a little tougher on Dirk, which no one should be denying.

It's okay to be a Dirk fan while acknowledging KG has skills as well.