Pre-Top 100 Project Lists (post your ATL)

[trex_8063]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. LeBron
4. Wilt
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic
8. George Mikan
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Dr. J
13. Moses
14. Tim Duncan
15. The Big O
16. The Logo
17. Bob Pettit
18. The Admiral
19. Charles Barkley
20. Kevin Durant
21. Steve Nash
22. Steph Curry
23, Kevin Garnett
24. The Mailman
25. Dirk Nowitzki
26. Elgin Baylor
27. Dwyane Wade
28. Rick Barry
29. John Havlicek
30. Bill Walton
31. Dave Cowens
32. The Big E
33. George Gervin
34. Bob McAdoo
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Willis Reed
37. Walt Frazier
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Chris Paul
40. Clyde Drexler
41. Tracy McGrady
42. The Answer
43. George McGinnis
44. Dwight Howard
45. Mel Daniels
46. A-Train
47. Scottie Pippen
48. Bob Lanier
49. Adrian Dantley
50. Dominique Wilkins

Stockton no where in top 50?

[wojoaderge]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. LeBron
4. Wilt
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic
8. George Mikan
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Dr. J
13. Moses
14. Tim Duncan
15. The Big O
16. The Logo
17. Bob Pettit
18. The Admiral
19. Charles Barkley
20. Kevin Durant
21. Steve Nash
22. Steph Curry
23, Kevin Garnett
24. The Mailman
25. Dirk Nowitzki
26. Elgin Baylor
27. Dwyane Wade
28. Rick Barry
29. John Havlicek
30. Bill Walton
31. Dave Cowens
32. The Big E
33. George Gervin
34. Bob McAdoo
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Willis Reed
37. Walt Frazier
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Chris Paul
40. Clyde Drexler
41. Tracy McGrady
42. The Answer
43. George McGinnis
44. Dwight Howard
45. Mel Daniels
46. A-Train
47. Scottie Pippen
48. Bob Lanier
49. Adrian Dantley
50. Dominique Wilkins

Stockton no where in top 50?

He isn't. Please refer to my criteria

[feyki]

#1 Jabbar
#2 Jordan
#3 Russell
#4 Chamberlain
#5 Duncan
#6 O'Neal
#7 James
#8 Magic Johnson
#9 Olajuwon
#10 Bryant
#11 Larry Legend
#12 Big O
#13 Moses Malone
#14 The Logo
#15 J.Erving
#16 G.Mikan
#17 Nowitzki
#18 Garnett
#19 Baylor
#20 Karl Malone
#21 Bob Pettit
#22 Barkley
#23 Admiral
#24 Wade
#25 Havlicek
#26 Stockton
#27 Ewing
#28 Paul
#29 Rick Barry
#30 Bob Cousy
#31 Drexler
#32 Cowens
#33 Nash
#34 Bob Davies
#35 Pippen
#36 Frazier
#37 Gervin
#38 Isiah Thomas
#39 Paul Pierce
#40 Jason Kidd
#41 Dolph Schayes
#42 Reggie Miller
#43 Bob Lanier
#44 Allen Iverson
#45 Artis Gilmore
#46 Elvin Hayes
#47 Kevin Durant
#48 Gary Payton
#49 Paul Arizin
#50 Willis Reed
#51 Wes Unseld
#52 Bob McAdoo
#53 Dwight Howard
#54 Nate Thurmond
#55 T-Mac
#56 Tony Parker
#57 D-Wilkins
#58 Kevin Johnson
#59 Carmelo Anthony
#60 Ray Allen
#61 McHale
#62 Sam Jones
#63 Pau Gasol
#64 Curry
#65 Dan Issel
#66 Pete Maravich
#67 C.Billups
#68 M.Ginobili
#69 Ed Macauley
#70 Alonzo Mourning
#71 Sidney Moncrief
#72 Neill Johnston
#73 Russell Westbrook
#74 Cliff Hagan
#75 Robert Parish
#76 Vince Carter
#77 Connie Hawkins
#78 Dennis Johnson
#79 Bernard King
#80 James Harden
#81 A.Dantley
#82 Bobby Wanzer
#83 Ben Wallace
#84 James Worthy
#85 Hal Greer
#86 Walt Bellamy
#87 Lenny Wilkens
#88 Bill Walton
#89 Nate Archibald
#90 Chris Webber
#91 Tim Hardaway
#92 Vern Mikelsenn
#93 David Thompson
#94 Alex English
#95 Earl Monroe
#96 Shawn Marion
#97 Gus Williams
#98 Chris Mullin
#99 Grant Hill
#100 Gail Goodrich
.

[Quotatious]

Not a "scientific" or well-defined list, more of a tentative one, but anyway, here's my quick-and-dirty top 50:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Bill Russell
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Karl Malone
11. Magic Johnson
12. Larry Bird
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Kobe Bryant
16. Julius Erving
17. David Robinson
18. Jerry West
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. Bob Pettit
22. Dwyane Wade
23. John Stockton
24. Steve Nash
25. Patrick Ewing
26. Artis Gilmore
27. Chris Paul
28. John Havlicek
29. Clyde Drexler
30. Scottie Pippen
31. Pau Gasol
32. Rick Barry
33. Walt Frazier
34. Jason Kidd
35. Elvin Hayes
36. Gary Payton
37. Kevin Durant
38. George Gervin
39. Elgin Baylor
40. Paul Pierce
41. Reggie Miller
42. Ray Allen
43. Robert Parish
44. Chauncey Billups
45. Isiah Thomas
46. Russell Westbrook
47. Stephen Curry
48. Alex English
49. Dwight Howard
50. Alonzo Mourning

General criteria:

-I consider longevity and durability to be very important (Kareem as the GOAT, Duncan at 4, Malone at 10, is a function of that)
-regular season is also very important to me, because of sample size, especially combined with elite longevity and durability ((that's why I have Karl Malone in top 10 and Robert Parish in early 40s ahead of players with much higher peaks like Westbrook and Curry).
-players with extremely high peaks but lacking longevity (to a reasonable extent, so no Bill Walton...), are still included on the list (such as Wade, Durant, Westbrook, Curry, even Howard, Mourning and Reed).
-high on bigs, relatively more so than on perimeter players (that's why my top 10 is dominated by bigs, with only two perimeter guys, Jordan and LeBron - but they are extremely good two-way players, elite defenders - Magic and Bird are not at that level defensively, that's why they are out of top 10 - Magic/Bird longevity is really poor compared to Garnett and Malone, that's why I have the bigs higher).
-high on two-way players, unless someone is a GOAT level player at one side of the court (like Russell and Nash).
-even though I value RS highly, truly exceptional playoff performers get a boost, too (Hakeem, Dirk, Frazier and Billups in particular)
-individual play matters a lot more than team success, in other words - I only give credit for team success as much as individual play warrants (so for example, even though Russell won 11 championships, I don't think he brings more value to a team than prime Jordan, LeBron and Hakeem, and then KAJ and Duncan have better longevity combined with higher peaks, too).

[trex_8063]

Not a "scientific" or well-defined list, more of a tentative one, but anyway, here's my quick-and-dirty top 50:

I see you're not near as high on Elvin Hayes as you used to be.

Also, just a general question about how you feel about pre-shot clock and how you consider the 50's in general, given Pettit is #21, but Schayes is not in the top 50; personally, I don't feel more than maybe thirty places should separate them.

[Quotatious]

I see you're not near as high on Elvin Hayes as you used to be.

Kind of forgot about him to be honest. He certainly does have a place in the top 50, I'll figure that out in a minute (he fits my criteria pretty well - elite longevity and durability, excellent defensive big, and also his game translates well to the playoffs).

Also, just a general question about how you feel about pre-shot clock. I'm sort of curious how you consider the 50's, given Pettit is #21, but Schayes is not in the top 50 (Mikan, too).

Schayes and McHale came very close to making the list. Well, Dolph's longevity is better than Dwight's and Zo's, but he was a low efficiency scorer (from the field, anyway) and not an elite defender, and I value these two things very highly for bigmen.

I focused on shot-clock era only. That's why Mikan is not on the list (I have a hard time putting his accomplishments in context - in terms of era-relative dominance, he deserves a top 10 spot, but on the other hand he's lacking longevity - I look at him as roughly similar to Curry, in the sense that has a few truly elite seasons, but lacks longevity).

Thanks for the comment, it's easy to make some glaring omissions when you have to consider so many players.

EDIT: Hayes is #35 now. I looked at my list and tried to figure out who is Hayes most similar to - Jason Kidd came to mind - both mediocre efficiency scorers, but both great rebounders, defenders, great longevity, quite significant in terms of team success. Hayes just lacks the playmaking factor that Kidd brought (and also, Kidd was hailed as a tremendous leader, while Hayes was considered a bad teammate, or at least somewhat egotistical and difficult to deal with as a person).

I thought my list would be pretty off-beat and original (though I'm sure some of the guys on this board would dismiss it as nonsense because of things like KG/Karl over Magic/Bird, Dirk over Kobe etc.), but I see it's really similar to Narigo's.

[Mike Hok]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Tim Duncan
5. Lebron James
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Magic Johnson
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Larry Bird
11. Karl Malone
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Kobe Bryant
16. David Robinson
17. Jerry West
18. Julius Erving
19. Moses Malone
20. Charles Barkley
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Patrick Ewing
24. Chris Paul
25. Steve Nash
26. Artis Gilmore
27. Hondo
28. Rick Barry
29. Clyde Drexler
30. Scottie Pippen

Haven't quite figured out the rest yet.

[scrabbarista]

10. Malone

I'm running the numbers with my revamped formula right now. I'd always had Malone at 13th, but felt it was too high (too many guys below him that I'd rather have lead my team through a playoff run). Where does he come down in my new formula? 12th.

Have to respect his overall production, I guess. Just too good for too long.

[wojoaderge]

51. Kahwi Leonard
52. James Harden
53. Russell Westbrook
54. John Stockton
55. Jason Kidd
56. Paul Arizin
57. Kevin McHale
58. Chris Webber
59. Pau Gasol
60. Billy Cunningham
61. Grant Hill
62. Carmelo Anthony
63. Anthony Davis
64. Bernard King
65. Paul Pierce
66. Bob Cousy
67. Gary Payton
68. Kevin Johnson
69. Nate Thurmond
70. Sidney Moncrief
71. Pistol Pete
72. Dan Issel
73. Alex English
74. Mitch Richmond
75. Dave Bing
76. Sam Jones
77. Ray Allen
78. Reggie Miller
79. Derrick Rose
80. Jack Sikma
81. Alonzo Mourning
82. Dennis Rodman
83. Wes Unseld
84. Robert Parish
85. Walt Bellamy
86. Dolph Schayes
87. Ben Wallace
88. Terry Cummings
89. Jerry Lucas
90. Paul Westphal
91. David Thompson
92. Chris Mullin
93. James Worthy
94. Larry Nance
95. Earl Monroe
96. Kevin Love
97. DeMarcus Cousins
98. Elton Brand
99. Blake Griffin
100. Marques Johnson

Edited to include Ben Wallace
Edited(2) to include James Harden and Anthony Davis
Edited to shuffle players between the 69-77 spots

[mischievous]

Not a "scientific" or well-defined list, more of a tentative one, but anyway, here's my quick-and-dirty top 50:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Michael Jordan
3. LeBron James
4. Tim Duncan
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Bill Russell
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Karl Malone
11. Magic Johnson
12. Larry Bird
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Dirk Nowitzki
15. Kobe Bryant
16. Julius Erving
17. David Robinson
18. Jerry West
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. Bob Pettit
22. Dwyane Wade
23. John Stockton
24. Steve Nash
25. Patrick Ewing
26. Artis Gilmore
27. Chris Paul
28. John Havlicek
29. Clyde Drexler
30. Scottie Pippen
31. Pau Gasol
32. Rick Barry
33. Walt Frazier
34. Jason Kidd
35. Elvin Hayes
36. Gary Payton
37. Kevin Durant
38. George Gervin
39. Elgin Baylor
40. Paul Pierce
41. Reggie Miller
42. Ray Allen
43. Robert Parish
44. Chauncey Billups
45. Isiah Thomas
46. Russell Westbrook
47. Stephen Curry
48. Alex English
49. Dwight Howard
50. Alonzo Mourning

General criteria:

-I consider longevity and durability to be very important (Kareem as the GOAT, Duncan at 4, Malone at 10, is a function of that)
-regular season is also very important to me, because of sample size, especially combined with elite longevity and durability ((that's why I have Karl Malone in top 10 and Robert Parish in early 40s ahead of players with much higher peaks like Westbrook and Curry).
-players with extremely high peaks but lacking longevity (to a reasonable extent, so no Bill Walton...), are still included on the list (such as Wade, Durant, Westbrook, Curry, even Howard, Mourning and Reed).
-high on bigs, relatively more so than on perimeter players (that's why my top 10 is dominated by bigs, with only two perimeter guys, Jordan and LeBron - but they are extremely good two-way players, elite defenders - Magic and Bird are not at that level defensively, that's why they are out of top 10 - Magic/Bird longevity is really poor compared to Garnett and Malone, that's why I have the bigs higher).
-high on two-way players, unless someone is a GOAT level player at one side of the court (like Russell and Nash).
-even though I value RS highly, truly exceptional playoff performers get a boost, too (Hakeem, Dirk, Frazier and Billups in particular)
-individual play matters a lot more than team success, in other words - I only give credit for team success as much as individual play warrants (so for example, even though Russell won 11 championships, I don't think he brings more value to a team than prime Jordan, LeBron and Hakeem, and then KAJ and Duncan have better longevity combined with higher peaks, too).

Curious to hear your Jordan>Lebron argument. I agree with it, but I remember you saying Lebron is equal or slightly better for peaks, and at this point his longevity is also either equal or slightly better. Do you think Mj still has a clear edge in prime?

[Quotatious]

Curious to hear your Jordan>Lebron argument. I agree with it, but I remember you saying Lebron is equal or slightly better for peaks, and at this point his longevity is also either equal or slightly better. Do you think Mj still has a clear edge in prime?

I would say that Jordan's prime was indeed better. Not by much, but more consistent. Fewer disappointing moments in the playoffs. I don't think MJ had a series nearly as bad as '07 or '11 finals by LeBron. I don't like to put excessive emphasis on a small sample size like that, and there's no doubt that LeBron is a fantastic playoff performer, overall, but when it comes to discussions about the very greatest player of all-time, everything should be scrutinized very closely. MJ also had better durability - in his relevant Bulls seasons (1985, 1987-93, 1996-98), he missed only 7 games in 11 seasons. If we look at LeBron's relevant seasons (so all except for his rookie year, which was roughly on Wizards Jordan level), and pick 11 that give us the least amount of missed games, overall, he still ends up with 51 missed games - 44 extra games on prime Jordan/LeBron level is already something valuable. Again, I'm nit-picking a bit, but MJ's prime is just a bit closer to perfection than LeBron's.

I'll say this - I'll be really surprised if LeBron doesn't surpass Jordan in 2 years from now. He'll probably approach Kareem's longevity when his career ends, and he'll have a better peak and prime than KAJ, so that'll make him the GOAT.

[mischievous]

Curious to hear your Jordan>Lebron argument. I agree with it, but I remember you saying Lebron is equal or slightly better for peaks, and at this point his longevity is also either equal or slightly better. Do you think Mj still has a clear edge in prime?

I would say that Jordan's prime was indeed better. Not by much, but more consistent. Fewer disappointing moments in the playoffs. I don't think MJ had a series nearly as bad as '07 or '11 finals by LeBron. I don't like to put excessive emphasis on a small sample size like that, and there's no doubt that LeBron is a fantastic playoff performer, overall, but when it comes to discussions about the very greatest player of all-time, everything should be scrutinized very closely. MJ also had better durability - in his relevant Bulls seasons (1985, 1987-93, 1996-98), he missed only 7 games in 11 seasons. If we look at LeBron's relevant seasons (so all except for his rookie year, which was roughly on Wizards Jordan level), and pick 11 that give us the least amount of missed games, overall, he still ends up with 51 missed games - 44 extra games on prime Jordan/LeBron level is already something valuable. Again, I'm nit-picking a bit, but MJ's prime is just a bit closer to perfection than LeBron's.

I'll say this - I'll be really surprised if LeBron doesn't surpass Jordan in 2 years from now. He'll probably approach Kareem's longevity when his career ends, and he'll have a better peak and prime than KAJ, so that'll make him the GOAT.

Interesting stuff.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I've been tweaking mine over the last month or so. Made a few changes after posting my list (a couple weeks back) but nothing major. Duncan dropping out of the top 10 was probably the most significant.

1. Wilt
2. LeBron
3. MJ
4. Kareem
5. Russell

6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Oscar
10. Olajuwon

11. Duncan
12. Dr. J
13. D Rob
14. West
15. KG

16. Curry
17. Barkley
18. Dirk
19. Kobe
20. K Malone

21. Durant
22. M Malone
23. Wade
24. Frazier
25. Drexler

[Colbinii]

I love seeing Oscar in the top 10 of lists. It is difficult for me to rank him and West in the top 10 given the lack of impact data we have on them.

[mischievous]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. LeBron
4. Wilt
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Magic
8. George Mikan
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. Hakeem
12. Dr. J
13. Moses
14. Tim Duncan
15. The Big O
16. The Logo
17. Bob Pettit
18. The Admiral
19. Charles Barkley
20. Kevin Durant
21. Steve Nash
22. Steph Curry
23. The Mailman
24. Kevin Garnett
25. Dirk Nowitzki
26. Elgin Baylor
27. Dwyane Wade
28. Rick Barry
29. John Havlicek
30. Bill Walton
31. Dave Cowens
32. The Big E
33. The Iceman
34. Bob McAdoo
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Willis Reed
37. Walt Frazier
38. Isiah Thomas
39. Chris Paul
40. Clyde Drexler
41. Tracy McGrady
42. The Answer
43. George McGinnis
44. Dwight Howard
45. Mel Daniels
46. A-Train
47. Scottie Pippen
48. Bob Lanier
49. Adrian Dantley
50. Dominique Wilkins

Edited to move The Mailman ahead of Garnett

Durant and Curry over Kg and Dirk? Wtf?

[feyki]

I love seeing Oscar in the top 10 of lists. It is difficult for me to rank him and West in the top 10 given the lack of impact data we have on them.

If defensive stats what you meant. Oscar was similar to Peak Rose and West was like Gino. Both in terms of style and impact.

[wojoaderge]

Durant and Curry over Kg and Dirk? Wtf?

Like trex before you, I refer you to my criteria - especially my Kiki Vandeweghe>E. C. Coleman maxim regarding Garnett.

[Mike Hok]

Durant and Curry over Kg and Dirk? Wtf?

Like trex before you, I refer you to my criteria - especially my Kiki Vandeweghe>E. C. Coleman maxim regarding Garnett.

What's the argument for Barkley over Malone and KG?

[Winsome Gerbil]

Well I started off pretty strong, but began to feel the vagueries and maybes piling up, and eventually pulled up well short of even 50. I think I could push it out further, but many considerations after you get past the megas.

1) Jordan
2) Lebron
3) Kareem
4) Wilt
5) Russel
6) Magic
7) Bird
8) Shaq
9) Duncan
10) Hakeem
11) Oscar
12) Mailman
13) Kobe
14) Dr. J
15) Moses
16) West
17) Admiral
18) Barkley
19) Garnett
20) Dirk
------------------- as far as I generally feel strongly about -------
21) Wade
22) Stockton
23) Baylor
24) Pippen
25) Petit
26) CP3
27) Nash
28) Havlicek
29) Ewing
30) Durant
31) Iverson
32) Mikan
33) Thomas
34) Barry
35) Frazier
36) Drexler
37)
38)
39)
40)
41)
42)
43)
44)
45)

...and just started spitballing names that could potentially be talked about. Horace Grant excepted of course.

In somewhere....
Curry
Westbrook
Gervin
Harden
Webber
Mourning
Payton
Kidd
Hill
KJohnson
Hardaway
Rodman
Worthy
Parrish
Cowens
Unseld
Sabonis
Schayes
Archibald
Maravich
Dantley
DWilkens
English
Anthony
Gilmore
Lanier
Bellamy
McHale
Webber
Richmond
Miller
Dumars
Wallace
Sampson
PGasol
Cousy
Billups
Howard
Yao
McGrady
Carter
Allen
Pierce
Mutombo
Walton
Thurmond
McAdoo
Bosh
Stoudemire
Marion
Chambers
Moncrief
Sikma
Parker
Ginobili
Mullin
Hayes
Reed
King

so that's 59 more...would get me all the way to 95 if all those made it, although a few won't/are more appropriate for hte next group.

maybe in
Kemp
Love
Griffin
Cousins
DThompson
Monroe
Goodrich
Brand
Rice
A.Davis
Leonard
Randolph
MGasol
Cheeks
DJohnson
LWilkens
Issel
Robertson
Kemp
Lever
Haywood
Cummings
Ellis
Price
Daugherty
Petrovic
Artest
JJohnson
Wall
George
Nance
BWilliams
Rondo
Hawkinis

Bing
Arizin
Johnston
SJones
Greer


interesting questions abound late about how to approach certain traits such as shortterm peak (or partial career for current players) vs. full career at lesser level. What to do with the non-legendary oldsters? etc. And what DO you do with guys like Arvydas and Drazen? Maybe put them in a subgroup with Sampson, Penny, Roy, Oden, Rose etc., in the "coulda/woulda" been Top 100?

[trex_8063]

Durant and Curry over Kg and Dirk? Wtf?

Like trex before you, I refer you to my criteria - especially my Kiki Vandeweghe>E. C. Coleman maxim regarding Garnett.

Regarding the bolded "maxim" as well as general premise where peak/dominance is the biggest consideration (with longevity being of lesser importance).......I was kinda wondering how James Harden (given current contemporaries and fellow MVP front-runners Leonard and Westbrook occupy 51st and 52nd) can be left off the top 100 entirely. Along the same lines, sort of curious how Yao doesn't make the cut. EDIT: or Anthony Davis, for that matter.

Additionally, since it appears you put the ABA (even the early ABA) on pretty firm footing (not arguing against that, btw) based on ranking Mel Daniels #45........it furrowed my brow a little that Spencer Haywood and Connie Hawkins are no where in the top 100.