RealGM Top 100 List: #19

[Pablo Novi]

From GOAT #18 thread, a few minutes ago, in Post#69 » by Pablo Novi » 21 minutes ago
trex_8063 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
Pablo Novi wrote:
Vote: Bob Pettit (my GOAT #3 PF) "Great Years +" "Points": 43.3
Alt: Bob Cousy (my GOAT #3 PG) "Great Years +" "Points": 40
H.M.: Elgin Baylor (my GOAT #4 SF) "Great Years +" "Points": 46.7

These are the only 3 remaining guys with 10 ALL-League First-Team selections - basically a decade of dominating their position.
All 3 revolutionized their position.

I have Pettit over Cousy because I believe his First-Team & 2nd-Team selections are a little more valuable.

I have them both over Elgin because I put one player per position in each descending set of 5 GOAT rankings. So, Elgin's in the next group.

penbeast0 wrote:
Re: Pettit -- do you really think his impact was close to that of Mikan? I love him and have him as my #5 PF of all time but he was basically Karl Malone in terms of impact. Mikan was a lot more.

Re: Cousy -- in his prime in the 50s, he carried his team (with good scorers Bill Sharman and Ed Macauley) to 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, and 2nd place finishes in a 4 team conference pre-Russell. With Russell, he had some of the worst playoffs of all time. Is he really better than Frazier? Stockton? Nash? Paul? If so, why?

trex_8063 wrote:
Re: Pettit - I would counter by noting he played in a tougher era, though, and also note his longevity appears superior (even if we count Mikan's NBL years).

Re: Cousy - I know I'll be championing Cousy sooner than most on this forum. But I do generally agree there's ample room to question whether he belongs ahead of Stockton, Nash, Paul, Frazier (or Kidd, Payton, Isiah, Curry, etc, for that matter).

Pablo Novi wrote:
SUGGESTED MIKAN COMPROMISE: GOAT #25
I have a suggestion re. our collective GOAT ranking of George Mikan:
Why not have him be GOAT #25 ?

Comparing him to other All-Time Greats:
He played ONLY a total of 520 games in his career (plus 91 Play-Off games)
Most of the guys we've voted in, or soon will, played close to twice (or more) as many games.
It is also known and agreed upon that his era was FAR weaker than any since then.
Still he DOMINATED his first 7.3 seasons for 7 Chips (and one broken leg from probably getting all 8).

Therefore, in such a controversial case, why not agree to a compromise (before hand?) and vote him in as GOAT #25?

About Cousy vs such as: Stockton, Nash, Paul, Frazier (or Kidd, Payton, Isiah, Curry.

I was never a huge fan of Cousy's (mostly because his great years happened before I started watching). Still, assuming our main criteria is how a player played AGAINST HIS COMPETITION IN HIS ERA; Cousy was ALL-NBA 1st-Team 10 years - twice as many as Kidd; 2.5 times as many as: CP3, Walt Frazier & Sharman; and at least 3+ times as many as the rest of these other otherwise quite-worthy PGs). That's a tremendous amount more position-wise domination.

Also, we have not as yet included any players who played mostly in the 1950s - that strikes me as a bit unbalanced.

N.B. I treat Jerry West as a SG rather than as a PG. Gail Goodrich, who played with Jerry about half of Jerry's career, said that Gail was the PG and Jerry the SG. Also, Jerry, particularly early on, was not a great assists man (less than 5 apg for his first 5 years, still less than 7 during his next 4 years); but what a shooter!

GOAT PGs:
by Pablo's "GREAT YEARS" "POINTS" Rankings:

#. "PTS"; Name; 1st-Teams; 2nd-Tms (ALL-NBA)
. 1. 49.8 Magic ..... 9 (1st-Tm) - 1 (2nd-Tm)
. 2. 49.0 Big "O" .... 9 - 2
. 3. 40.0 Cousy ... 10 - 2 N.B. Despite Cousy's TEN 1st-Tms, he only has 40 "Pts"; because I've discounted heavily his era.
. 4. 37.8 Stockton .. 2 - 6
. 5. 35.0 Kidd ....... 5 - 1
. 6. 33.8 Paul ....... 4 -3
. 7. 29.8 Payton .... 2 - 5
. 8. 29.3 Nash ...... 3 - 2
. 9. 28.5 A.I. ........ 3 - 3
10. 24.5 Isiah ....... 3 - 2
11. 23.3 Westbrook 2 - 4
12. 22.5 Frazier ... 4 - 2
13. 19.0 Tiny ...... 3 - 2
14. 19.0 Sharman . 4 - 3
15. 17.5 Curry ..... 2 - 2

[Jaivl]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

Even here it's not too early for Stockton.

[JordansBulls]

1st Vote: Moses Malone (we are talking about a guy dominated head to head vs Kareem,

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Moses+Malone&player_id1_select=Moses+Malone&player_id1=malonmo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01&idx=players

He won 3 league MVP's (including back to back in a league with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr J), 1 Finals MVP and was an all time dominant rebounder.

2nd Vote: Dwyane Wade

[Pablo Novi]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

Even here it's not too early for Stockton.

The biggest problem I have with the GOAT list we've been building is that, imo, it is definitely unbalanced POSITION-WISE - especially with Centers taking about 1/3 of the spots so far (and Moses & Mikan also on our horizion).

Clearly, bigs generally, and Centers in particular tend to have seriously bigger roles to play on Defense. BUT, the smaller the guy, the more that player TENDS to do tons more of: running, dribbling, cutting, passing, chasing, even "thinking/planning". In my book, that about equalizes the "equation". For this reason, in my GOAT rankings, in each descending set of 5 GOAT spots, I have one player form each position - although I always have the Center within that group as the highest ranked.

Examples:
GOAT #s 1-5: KAJ, Magic, MJ, LBJ, TD (in this order)
GOAT #2 6-10: Wilt, Dr J, Kobe, "O", K. Malone
etc.

We're two spots (this one and the next) from completing our GOAT Top 20, and we only have 2 PGs so far!
So, imo, we should really start trying to balance things out considering such as:
Cousy, Stockton, and the other 11 or so (I just mentioned in a just-previous post).

[Pablo Novi]

1st Vote: Moses Malone (we are talking about a guy dominated head to head vs Kareem,

Spoiler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Moses+Malone&player_id1_select=Moses+Malone&player_id1=malonmo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01&idx=players

He won 3 league MVP's (including back to back in a league with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr J), 1 Finals MVP and was an all time dominant rebounder.

2nd Vote: Dwyane Wade

I have DWade a few spots lower in my GOAT range of: 25-30.

The main reason: he only had TWO ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections and THREE 2nd-Team selections - there's decidedly over 25 guys that have had more (i.e. that have dominated their positions more than DWade has).

[Outside]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

I've got Stockton in an interchangeable group in this range, so no, I don't think it's too early.

[theonlyclutch]

If there's an argument for him (Stockton) being in the top 20, I would like a very solid reason for why a top 15 player (malone, by voting) and Stockton, both in their statistical primes (88-95), with plenty of roster continuity and good coaching, no injuries to each since both were iron men, were continuously heads of teams which weren't much good either in the regular or the post season, has such a thing happened elsewhere like, ever?

Requoting myself here....

[Outside]

Vote: Barkley
Alternate: Moses

Edit: changing my vote from Havlicek to Barkley. Originally voted for Havlicek, but have been convinced by discussion that he should come a bit later in the list. (I did generate some discussion about him, which was a good thing.)

I previously had Moses over Barkley, but the discussion plus my continued perusal of their info has led me to switch their order. I'm going with Barkley because of offensive impact, assists, and overall postseason resume. I've downgraded Moses because of awful assist numbers and a poor postseason resume, which includes only 100 playoff games in 21 seasons.

Below is the text from my original post.
---

Next up: Barkley, Baylor, McHale, Pettit, Pippen, Ewing, Mikan, Frazier, Stockton. Order subject to massive change.

About Havlicek...

Versatility: no one in this group more versatile than Havlicek. He could play guard or forward, had an inside-outside offensive game, was valuable on offense as well as defense, and he could get out in transition. He's the complete package.

Longevity: played 16 seasons, which was excellent longevity for his day. Played 80 games his first season (out of an 80-game schedule) and 82 games in his last season. Missed only 33 games in 16 years. Played 172 PS games, which is 21st all time and better than everyone listed above except Stockton (182), despite playing much of his career during a time when there were fewer playoff rounds.

RS career averages: 20.8 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists
PS career averages: 22.0 points, 6.9 rebounds, 4.8 assists

8 championships and one finals MVP

All NBA 11 times (1st team 4 times, 2nd team 7 times)

All Defensive 8 times (1st team 5 times, 2nd team 3 times, award wasn't created until his 7th season)

Received MVP votes in 8 seasons

13th in career defensive win shares, 19th in career points, 33rd in career assists

[Doctor MJ]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

It's definitely not too early to talk about him.

I made Barkley my alt late thread so I currently have him with the edge over Stockton, but I think it's interesting they were in the same draft.

Who do you think was happier with their pick, Philly or Utah? Pretty easy choice in Stockton's favor. People name things in honor of Stockton all over Utah. Pretty sure people in Philly are more likely to name obesity-inducing cheese steaks after Chuck.

My mind is really, really open for my next pick and frankly between that and my spotty internet access, I may end up not voting in this thread. The following guys are on my mind at the moment:

Moses
Barkley
Stockton
Nash
Paul
Curry
Durant
Wade

And that's just the guys I'm literally thinking when I type this. I could see others being my choice as well. There really is something of a tier drop for me relative to the guys who just got in.

Of the group, Barkley is the outlier talent among those who have completed full careers, which is why he's currently in the lead for me, but obviously he's got all sorts of baggage.

[Joao Saraiva]

If there's an argument for him (Stockton) being in the top 20, I would like a very solid reason for why a top 15 player (malone, by voting) and Stockton, both in their statistical primes (88-95), with plenty of roster continuity and good coaching, no injuries to each since both were iron men, were continuously heads of teams which weren't much good either in the regular or the post season, has such a thing happened elsewhere like, ever?

Requoting myself here....

Roster continuity... that doesn't mean it's good. LeBron changed the entire roster and achieved more success when he changed to the Heat.

KD achieved a ring this year. Roster changed...

The Jazz had a roster with Eaton (offensive cancer) and full of bad scorers even if they put up volume (Jeff Malone is a good player to describe that).

From 96 on with the addition of Hornacek and Russell evolving things were better for us. The roster had more spacing, more shot creation in the perimeter besides Stockton and with positive effects team wise... but Stockton was not at his best any more. Even with Karl Malone it's arguable (I know MVP years and he had some better moves in the post, but he didn't have all the athleticism he had before for example).

We lost to the Sonics when we shouldn't, but then went on to beat a great Rockets team and Shaq in the next two years. In 97 we had our best Jazz team, in 98 we were still pretty good but Stockton had clearly lost a big step when comparing him to his younger days. And still we managed to play great team basketball under a very good coach.. just ended up with a bad matchup vs the Bulls. Big guards so we couldn't hide that weakness with either Stockton or Horny (one of them had to guard Pippen or MJ), we lacked good wing defenders on the bench too, and Dennis on Malone proved to be effective (more in 97).

I think you need to watch to understand. We even had a 1st round loss in the period you describe with both Malone and Stockton having absolutely fantastic series (against Phoenix in 1990).

[mischievous]

Wade is my 1st vote and I’m looking to make his case now. I’ll go over the relevant years of his career, as well as his place in the league those years.

2004- Solid rookie year. Put up roughly 16/4/5 17.6 PER, 53 ts% .9 OBPM, 1.4 BPM. Missed 21 games, so I have to dock him some. Raised his game in the playoffs, where he arguably becomes their best player putting up 18/4/6 53 ts% 17.7 PER over 13 games. Drops 21/4/6 on 57ts% against the Pacers who were an elite team, and one of the best defenses in the league being anchored by a prime Artest and Jermaine Oneal. Overall, not a great season, but a borderline all star caliber season which should count for something when looking at his career.

2005- Wade becomes a legit superstar. and starts to become basically their de facto point guard as a term many use when a player basically takes on shooting guard and point guard duties. Along with Shaq, helps lead the heat to 59 wins and 1st seed in the east throwing up roughly 24/5/7 56 ts%, 23 PER in the regular season and again raises his game in the playoffs being one win away from the finals. Roughly 27/6/7 on 56 ts%, 24.3 PER and a 6.6 BPM over the entire playoffs. Should also be noted that Wade’s injury in the Piston series is pretty much why they didn’t advance. I mean they get completely blown out in the game 6 without him, and lose by 25 points. It’s fair to knock Wade for his injury, but at the same time, they don’t get put even close to the position they were without him.

2006- Wade this year goes from just a superstar to having an all time great season. This year, you see Wade become imo a borderline elite defensive guard, and he starts to take better care of the ball and get to the line a bit more. Shaq sees a decline from the previous year, and missed 23 games, so their record isn’t as good as the year prior. Wade wasn’t working with a whole lot outside of Shaq especially in his absence. We had Walker who was past prime, but still an alright player, Zo was still a good defensive player but was only playing 20 mpg. Haslem was never more than a good role player. I’ll use some of a post from Quotatious a few years back on Wade’s 2006 season. If he was here, I know he wouldn’t mind.

I know that most people consider 2009 to be Wade's peak (me too), but his 2006 campaign is extremely impressive. I'm not even talking just about his playoff run, but his '05-'06 regular season is IMO underrated.

In the regular season, Wade averaged about 27.2 ppg (57.7% TS, +4.2% league average) /5.7 rpg (8.7% TRB)/6.7 apg (33.0% AST/13.2% TOV, so +2.5 ratio)/1.8 spg/0.8 bpg, 27.6 PER (4th in the league, very close to LeBron/Dirk, who had 28.1, and Kobe, with 28.0), 4th in WS/48 (after Dirk, Billups and KG), 2nd/3rd in BPM (behind LeBron, tied with KG for #2, at 7.0), 3rd in VORP (after LeBron and KG). Also, his +15.8 on/off court net is clearly higher than any other star's, including Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett, Duncan, Nash etc.

He finished #1 in the league in NPI RAPM, with a very sizeable edge over any other superstar of his caliber, #1 in prior informed, and 6th in xRAPM (behind Ben Wallace, Kirilenko, Duncan, Garnett and Shaq).

In the playoffs (23 games, obviously led his team to a title), he averaged 28.4 ppg (59.3%, so he actually improved his scoring compared to the regular season, while facing pretty good defensive teams - his first round opponents, the Bulls, had the 7th best defense in the league, second round opponent - the Nets, were #4 in DRtg, then in the ECF they faced the Pistons, #5 in DRtg, anchored by then-reigning DPOY Ben Wallace, and even the Mavs was decent defensively - #11), his rebounding stayed about the same (8.4% TRB compared to 8.7 in the regular season), playmaking declined a bit (27.9% AST/14.0% AST), but it was still pretty solid, and his defense apparently improved (it was already good in the RS). PER goes down by a bit (26.9, compared to 27.6 in the RS), WS/48 stay about the same (24.0 compared to 23.9), BPM goes up (8.9 compared to 7.5). His on/off court net is even higher than it was in the RS (+21.8).

I’ll just leave that season at that.


2007- Inury riddled year. Definitely hurts his career value, but before going down with injury Wade was playing close to his 09 level and clearly above his 06 regular season. In 46 games before injury, Wade averaged 29/5/8 on 59 ts%, while being a very good defender.

2008- Not a lot to talk about unfortunately. Beat up and injured, not playing to his usual level even when he was out there.

2009- Wade’s peak. Anybody that doesn’t know how great Wade’s peak was should educate themselves in a hurry. Hopefully Sideshowbob doesn’t mind me quoting some posts on Wade’s 09 season.

Wade 2009, late February-March scoring streak (34.7 GameScore!?)

Code: Select all

G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
11   41.5  38.3   6.3   10.4    3.0    1.3   .654    130    34.7

That has to be the best stretch so far. That's just an unreal 11 game stretch. I've seen Jordan and James with the most extended streaks of a 28+ game score, but this is phenomenal.

There's an 8 game run in there that looks like this

Code: Select all

G    MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TS%    ORTG   GmSc
8    42.5  39.9   6.9   10.4    3.6    1.5   .655    131    36.9

He shoots 50% from 3, puts up an AST% of 48.7%, a USG% of 37.1%, a STL% of 4.5%, and a BLK% of 3.1%, all while putting up 40/7/10/4/2 on 66% TS no less

Here's a more detailed look at that stretch. Includes Miami's performance shifts, 4Factors, and Wade's Box lines.

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2009 Miami Heat

Spoiler:

Full Season

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.3     108.5    108.3    0.26    0.24    0.49   +0.5     0.0    +0.6

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
89.2     107.3    107.0    0.29   -0.14   -0.25   -1.0    -1.0    +0.1

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
91.4     114.6    114.4    0.15    2.07    3.38   +7.5    +5.0    +2.5

Four Factors

Spoiler:

Full Season

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       50.0%      24.6%       11.6%      .212
Defense       50.1%      72.9%       14.0%      .251

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       49.6%      24.5%       11.7%      .212
Defense       49.5%      72.9%       14.2%      .249

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       52.0%      24.5%       11.0%      .234
Defense       53.8%      72.2%       14.4%      .267

Dwyane Wade

Spoiler:

Average and Per 75 possessions

Full Season

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.6  30.2  5.0   7.5   40.3%   3.4   11.6%   57.4% +3.0%   36.2%  115
N/A   31.6  5.3   7.8   N/A     3.6   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Non-Ball Dominant Stretch 66 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

38.0  28.8  4.9   6.9   37.8%   3.3   11.4%   55.6% +1.2%   36.5%  111.6
N/A   30.6  7.3   8.0   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

Ball Dominant Stretch February 18th - March 14th, 2009, 13 Games

Code: Select all

MPG   PPG   TRB   AST   AST%    TOV   TOV%    TS%   RelTS%  USG%   ORTG

41.4  37.2  5.9  10.4   50.3%   3.9   12.2%   65.7% +11.3%  36.0%  131
N/A   35.3  5.6   9.9   N/A     3.7   N/A     N/A    N/A    N/A    N/A

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Miami was able to run a +7.5 offense with Wade playing out of his mind like that.

2010- Elite, all time great season imo. Box scores- roughly 27/5/7 56+ ts%, 28 PER, 7.4 OBPM, 9.4 BPM, 8.0 VORP. Wade was 2nd in RAPM by a comfortable margin in the league behind Lebron, and his box scores also show him as comfortably the 2nd best player in the league behind Lebron. Led a mediocre cast to 47 wins. In the playoffs, Wade summoned his inner MJ on the Boston Celtics who were the best defense in the league that gave Lebron and Kobe problems.

5 games- 33.2/5.6/6.8 65 ts%, 29.4 PER 11.4 OBPM, 13.7 BPM. It was just one series, but it shows what Wade was capable of doing to super elite defenses. For those docking this series for the heat being a bad offense, please. The 2nd leading scorer on the Heat in that series was Chalmers at 10.8 ppg. Pretty much everyone was shooting and playing really poorly especially Jermaine Oneal who was historically bad. Oneal was playing 23 mpg, shooting 8.8 times per game and shot 22.3 ts%. Nobody that ever lived could’ve beaten the Celtics in place of Wade, or have them playing at a significantly better offensive level.


2011-2014 the big 3 era- I’m not going to go in too much detail as I think my post is getting too long at this point.

2011 Wade, was still in his prime and an easy top 5 player in the league. Still put up elite numbers with Lebron’s play style overlapping with Wade’s. Wade like in 2010 torched the Celtics, and was very great in the finals, would’ve had a 2nd finals mvp if Lebron plays even 75% of what he’s’ capable of. They could’ve gone up 3-1 if it weren’t for Lebron’s pathetic 8 point performance in game 4.

2012- Some injuries, still played basically at his prime level when he was healthy. Decent in the playoffs, stepped up in the Pacers series when Bosh went down with injury(averaged 33/7/4 on 64.4 ts% in games 4-6) Top 10 player in the league easily.

2013- Helped the heat to an historic 27 game win streak. Mediocre playoffs, but had a big game 4 in the finals where he was the best player on the floor and this game changes the momentum of the series.

2014- Injuries, was mediocre in the playoffs. Adds little value

2015- All star caliber, but definitely slowing down

2016- Nearly leads the Heat to the ECF, while being their clear best player in the playoffs.

I think Wade’s lack of longevity tends to get overblown or exaggerated. I think his combination of peak, prime, long playoff success and awards and accomplishments is enough to get him in imo. I like him over Barkley due to a big defensive gap, and better leadership. I like him a hair over Moses, due to superior 4-5 year prime, and for someone of Moses’ caliber he doesn’t seem all that impressive by advanced stats. For example peak PER 26.8, which is very good but hardly an all time achievement, career high in OBPM 5.4, 2nd highest only 4.3, was pretty consistently a negative in DBPM(I recognize this stat isn’t very good), which kind of makes me question how good his defense was as a center. I’m not saying he was a negative, but he clearly isn’t close to what an elite defender would be, and his offense is clearly behind Wade’s, Moses' poor playmaking and somewhat black hole style limits his value as an offensive player.

2nd vote: Moses

[Doctor MJ]

If there's an argument for him (Stockton) being in the top 20, I would like a very solid reason for why a top 15 player (malone, by voting) and Stockton, both in their statistical primes (88-95), with plenty of roster continuity and good coaching, no injuries to each since both were iron men, were continuously heads of teams which weren't much good either in the regular or the post season, has such a thing happened elsewhere like, ever?

Requoting myself here....

It's really not clear that the Jazz were all that well coached if we compare Sloan's model to what wins in the NBA now.

One of the questions we've long had is what Stockton would have done had he actually been unleashed. He wasn't the creative genius Nash was, but he played in a way that seemed forced by his situation to be more conservative than he'd naturally play. There's an early playoff series where he had several volume scoring games but then through the bulk of his career, he basically just never had big scoring games like you'd expect from the natural variance of a floor general. To give an example of what I mean, if you go and do a search on Stockton and Jason Kidd's 30+ games, Kidd had a ton more despite the fact that his averages were comparable to Stockton. Basically when Kidd had a favorable matchup and was feeling his shot, he had the greenlight to shoot. Stockton on the other hand seems like at a certain point was convinced - by some means, possibly just his sense that Malone was the true star - that it was his job to get others the ball and when a bucket needed to be created, Malone had primacy.

So then what do you do with that for Stockton's place here? Typically in the past I've rated Nash over Stockton on the basis that whatever Stockton was capable of as an alpha, he didn't do it, and thus it's not relevant. Still, the more I look at Stockton, while it seems clear he didn't match Nash's prime offensive impact, he was still quite good on that front, and on defense, for a very, very long time.

I'll also note this: I've smacked Baylor way the hell down on my list because in my opinion his tendency to play alpha with a clearly superior teammate was actively hurting his team for much of his career. Malone's case is not so clear cut, and certainly not so drastic, but I've certainly heard stories of him being frustrated that he wasn't seen as better than Jordan, because he thought he was. Perhaps I'll hear evidence that those stories were total fabrications, but I think it's quite likely that Malone's assumption of primacy had everything to do with why Stockton was so deferential, which then led to playoff situations where Malone struggled to score efficiently, but still kept being the one who shot it.

And so if that's the case you might argue that Stockton is the one who deserves to be seen as a top 20 rather than Malone.

For me personally I've never been able to justify going that far, but thoughts like these make it pretty easy for me to side with guys like Dirk over Malone as I too question whether Malone should have been able to accomplish more.

But getting back to Sloan: The reality is the Jazz had their most success when Stockton's stats went down. There's an implication that Stockton was the problem before then when I say that, but given that Stockton's impact stats are basically free of blemish everywhere I've looked, it's hard to imagine that his decision making was a bottle neck. If there was a bottle neck then, I'd say Sloan's rigidity may have been it. It frankly might have nothing to do with Malone at all (though Malone's impact dipped later on when he didn't adjust to his lessening skills, but even that might have been more about Sloan's rigidity than Malone's decision making).

[euroleague]

you're comparing moses's average to Barkley, but Moses played 1/2 again barkley's career in terms of games. 1500 games for moses, 1000 for barkley. not a fair comparison. Moses also played in the 80s, against MJ/Bird/Kareem/Irving/Magic, so he had a lot of competition in terms of MVP shares.

Moses destroyed teams, and took a terrible Rockets team to the Final. Obviously Moses took a nose-dive in his career after winning, but he was an all-time great during his peak. 76ers destroyed teams.

Moses averaged 25/15, with 6 ORPG, for a 7 year period. while not as efficient as Chuck, his better defense and offensive rebound domination were a huge asset to any team. Kobe could shoot all he wanted, if Moses was his Center. Moses led the league in WS twice, in 82 and 83 - Chuck never did. I would argue advanced stats favor Moses more after considering that he played 42 MPG.

I would nominate KD for some consideration. He's been in the league 10 years, with a career average of 27/7/4 and an 8 year average PER of 27, which beats anything moses/barkley have done. defensively, he also is far better than them. if LBJ can be ranked #3 of all time (and LBJ is arguably at his playoff peak in recent years), and KD just beat him in their 1v1 matchup, KD deserves some consideration here.

I don't know if I can vote, but I would vote: 1. Moses, 2. KD

[trex_8063]

Looking at Moses' B-R page, I misstated when I said 16 years because I misread 1976-77, when he played for two teams. What I counted as very good or excellent seasons were all of his double-double seasons, of which he had 15. His worst of that bunch were 1976-77, when he averaged 13.2 points and 13.1 rebounds, and 1989-90, when he averaged 18.9 points and 10.0 rebounds.

For Barkley, I didn't include his rookie season (14 points, 8.6 rebounds), 1996-97 (19.2/13.5, but only 53 games played), or his last two seasons (1998-99 and 1999-00, total of 62 games played). Re-looking at it, I'd probably include 1996-97 because he was impactful in the playoffs (16 games, 17.9/12.0), but I'd probably drop 1997-98 because he wasn't impactful in the playoffs (9.0/4.0, played only 4 of the Rockets' 5 playoff games). His Rockets tenure was almost continually marred by injury, and he was never the player he once was except in the briefest of flashes.

Moses had more total seasons (21 to 15) and more productive seasons (15 to 12). Moses also has a significant advantage in RS totals that come with longevity -- games (1455 to 1073), minutes (49,444 to 39,330), points (29,580 to 23,757), and rebounds (17,834 to 12,546). The net result is that I still think longevity is a clear plus to Moses.

Whether it's intentional or not, I think you've sort of shifted the goal-posts a bit to come up with the numbers your going with to describe the longevity gap, and I'll explain how.....

I'll start with the easiest one: "21 to 15".
Barkley played 16 seasons, so it's 21 to 16. I'm sure that was just an oversite; unless you were disallowing '00 because he only played 20 games. But then it would only be fair to label it "19 to 15", as Moses only played 17 games (and just 149 TOTAL minutes) in '95, and only 11 games (104 minutes) in '93. In fact, in those mere 20 games Barkley played in '00, he fell just 251 minutes shy of what Moses played in '93-'95 COMBINED. EDIT: From a pure minutes standpoint, it may only be fair to label it "18 to 15", as Barkley played more minutes in '00 than Moses did in '94, too.

I'm glad you've reconsidered disallowing '97 as one of Barkley's "productive" seasons in this comparison; it would be disingenuous to disallow it because he only played 53 games, while counting '78 Moses (59 games).

I generally disagree with general standard of "productive" seasons as those in which a double-double was achieved because that's not quite a level playing field.
For one, I'd note that the slowest paced team Moses had a "productive" season for was in '90 (pace 95.8).......Barkley played for a slower paced team in SEVEN of his 16 seasons (as slow as 88.8 in '99), while still averaging a double-double every year except his rookie season.
For two, I'd note that Barkley has more play-making, generally better shooting efficiency, and often lower turnover rate, too. I mean, if we're going to judge solely on per game averages (despite pace difference), at least use the full box. How about something like ppg + rpg + apg + spg + bpg - topg - (missed FTA/g + missed FGA/g)?........I've not really looked at it, but if you look into that score (let's call it "Y") that Moses has in each of the 15 years you're calling productive, I'm willing to bet that Charles has at least 14 seasons with a better "Y" than Moses's 15th-best "Y" (pace adjusted, I'd not be surprised to find that all 16 of Barkley's seasons have a better "Y" than Moses's 15th-best).

I disagree with disallowing '98 Barkley because he was banged up and less effective in the playoffs---->Moses missed the playoffs entirely in '86. So it would only be fair to disallow that one for the same basic reason.

In '99 Barkley played just 42 games......but this was the player hold-out year (only a 50-game season). 42 games pro-rated to a full-length year is the same as playing 68-69 games.


So yeah, I still pretty definitively disagree with the implication here. I don't contend Barkley's longevity was equal, I only contend the size of the gap you're implying.

[trex_8063]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

Even here it's not too early for Stockton.

I agree. I don't personally have Stockton this high, but as a big proponent of meaningful longevity, I certainly don't think it would be absurd to do so. AFTER Barkley and Moses, I think it's a mistake to NOT have Stockton as a primary candidate (at least based on my criteria which again, favors longevity).

[Outside]

Looking at Moses' B-R page, I misstated when I said 16 years because I misread 1976-77, when he played for two teams. What I counted as very good or excellent seasons were all of his double-double seasons, of which he had 15. His worst of that bunch were 1976-77, when he averaged 13.2 points and 13.1 rebounds, and 1989-90, when he averaged 18.9 points and 10.0 rebounds.

For Barkley, I didn't include his rookie season (14 points, 8.6 rebounds), 1996-97 (19.2/13.5, but only 53 games played), or his last two seasons (1998-99 and 1999-00, total of 62 games played). Re-looking at it, I'd probably include 1996-97 because he was impactful in the playoffs (16 games, 17.9/12.0), but I'd probably drop 1997-98 because he wasn't impactful in the playoffs (9.0/4.0, played only 4 of the Rockets' 5 playoff games). His Rockets tenure was almost continually marred by injury, and he was never the player he once was except in the briefest of flashes.

Moses had more total seasons (21 to 15) and more productive seasons (15 to 12). Moses also has a significant advantage in RS totals that come with longevity -- games (1455 to 1073), minutes (49,444 to 39,330), points (29,580 to 23,757), and rebounds (17,834 to 12,546). The net result is that I still think longevity is a clear plus to Moses.

Whether it's intentional or not, I think you've sort of shifted the goal-posts a bit to come up with the numbers your going with to describe the longevity gap, and I'll explain how.....

I'll start with the easiest one: "21 to 15".
Barkley played 16 seasons, so it's 21 to 16. I'm sure that was just an oversite; unless you were disallowing '00 because he only played 20 games. But then it would only be fair to label it "19 to 15", as Moses only played 17 games (and just 149 TOTAL minutes) in '95, and only 11 games (104 minutes) in '93. In fact, in those mere 20 games Barkley played in '00, he fell just 251 minutes shy of what Moses played in '93-'95 COMBINED. EDIT: From a pure minutes standpoint, it may only be fair to label it "18 to 15", as Barkley played more minutes in '00 than Moses did in '94, too.

I'm glad you've reconsidered disallowing '97 as one of Barkley's "productive" seasons in this comparison; it would be disingenuous to disallow it because he only played 53 games, while counting '78 Moses (59 games).

I generally disagree with general standard of "productive" seasons as those in which a double-double was achieved because that's not quite a level playing field.
For one, I'd note that the slowest paced team Moses had a "productive" season for was in '90 (pace 95.8).......Barkley played for a slower paced team in SEVEN of his 16 seasons (as slow as 88.8 in '99), while still averaging a double-double every year except his rookie season.
For two, I'd note that Barkley has more play-making, generally better shooting efficiency, and often lower turnover rate, too. I mean, if we're going to judge solely on per game averages (despite pace difference), at least use the full box. How about something like ppg + rpg + apg + spg + bpg - topg - (missed FTA/g + missed FGA/g)?........I've not really looked at it, but if you look into that score (let's call it "Y") that Moses has in each of the 15 years you're calling productive, I'm willing to bet that Charles has at least 14 seasons with a better "Y" than Moses's 15th-best "Y" (pace adjusted, I'd not be surprised to find that all 16 of Barkley's seasons have a better "Y" than Moses's 15th-best).

I disagree with disallowing '98 Barkley because he was banged up and less effective in the playoffs---->Moses missed the playoffs entirely in '86. So it would only be fair to disallow that one for the same basic reason.

In '99 Barkley played just 42 games......but this was the player hold-out year (only a 50-game season). 42 games pro-rated to a full-length year is the same as playing 68-69 games.


So yeah, I still pretty definitively disagree with the implication here. I don't contend Barkley's longevity was equal, I only contend the size of the gap you're implying.

That's fair. As is probably painfully aware, I did only a shallow dive due to time constraints, so you're absolutely correct to take the info I presented to task (though some might deduct points from you for picking on the helpless).

However, as part of what little I did, I was swayed further in giving Moses the longevity advantage by his RS career totals, where he holds significant advantages over Barkley in games (1455 to 1073), minutes (49,444 to 39,330), points (29,580 to 23,757), and rebounds (17,834 to 12,546). Those to me are more straightforward (and compelling) numbers than figuring out how many productive seasons each guy had.

[CodeBreaker]

19. Moses Malone
2nd vote: Charles Barkley

I gave the edge to Moses because of his 3 MVPs. Achievements backing up his skills weighs more for me, so is his longevity.

[THKNKG]

Okay, some thinking out loud by era/position - we'll see where this goes.

50's/60's - best players remaining are Mikan, Arizin, Schayes, Pettit, Baylor, Thurmond

70's - best players remaining are Gilmore, Havlicek, Barry, Frazier, Reed, Cowens

80's - Moses, Isiah, McHale

90's - Barkley, Stockton, Drexler, Payton, Ewing

00's - Kidd, Nash, Wade, CP3, Dwight, KD

10's - Steph

All right, some position comparisons...

-Mikan vs Moses:
Mikan was clearly the more dominant player, as he's on the shortlist for most dominant players ever relative to era (Mikan/Russell/Wilt/KAJ/MJ/Shaq/LBJ). However, even though in era impact is phenomenally important, Mikan's era was substantially weaker than any era that has existed since. On top of that, his longevity was highly suspect due to his injury, even relative to the league he was in. For that reason, I can't put him over a player who, though he did not have an ideal playstyle, dominated for a similar time, though not a similar degree. For that reason, I have Moses > Mikan.

-Moses vs Ewing:
This one is tough as well, and I'd be open to a case for Ewing. I am currently undecided, but I have a slight edge toward Moses due to his greater in-era impact.

-Ewing vs Mikan:
Same reasoning as above, except the gap is less clear to me. Mikan is somewhere in the Ewing range for me, though I'm not yet fully convinced on where he stands.

-Barkley vs. Pettit
Pettit was a better teammate, but Barkley was a superlative talent. I've been blown away by his ability. I have questions about Pettit's being outdone in the playoffs by Hagan repeatedly if anyone has any information on that. I currently give the edge due to overall impact to Barkley.

-No SF is on my radar as of yet, though KD, Scottie, and Rick Barry will be some of the first to appear.

-Wade is under consideration as well, but I have some issues with him a la Shaq and CP3 - they missed so many dang games in their primes.

-Nash vs CP3:
Currently, I give the edge to Nash, as his otherworldly ability to control an offense was amazing. CP3 is stylistically different, but overall similarly effective. Problem is, Nash still has a longevity edge. I could easily eventually give this spot to CP3, but not yet.

-Nash vs. Stockton:
Initially, I had Nash and CP3 over Stockton quite easily, but that dismisses the fact that Stockton only missed 22 games in his ENTIRE CAREER, and was constant in his impact throughout. Admittedly he was less effective than them, but he played so so long. I'm open to arguments against Stockton but for now I tentatively have him pretty even with Nash.

-Nash vs. Barkley:
How does this shake out for you guys? They provided similarish impact on offense, while Nash was less of a negative on defense, and less of a negative as a teammate. I see it as really close.

-Barkley vs. Malone:
Again, another one I struggle with answering. Barkley had greater offensive impact, even though Moses made his mark on offense too. Does Barkley's negative defense override that offensive gap? I'm not convinced that it does, but I'm open to being persuaded.


So, I'm left with Stockton, Nash, and Barkley, with Moses right behind.

I'll tentatively place my vote, and change it if persuaded.

1. Steve Nash
2. Charles Barkley
HM: John Stockton

Things that could alter my vote:
1. Proof that Barkley's negativity on D is more massive than I am realizing
2. Proof that Stockton wasn't even close to the level of impact as Nash (or that it is really close)

[oldschooled]

After Moses and Barkley, do you guys feel it's too early for Stockton?

No. That's where he should be imo. 20-22. Stock's relevant longevity and career value stacks up with the guys up next (Pip, Wade, Nash). Otoh I can't believe some of the guys here are already discussing CP3.

[penbeast0]

...

-Nash vs. Stockton:
Initially, I had Nash and CP3 over Stockton quite easily, but that dismisses the fact that Stockton only missed 22 games in his ENTIRE CAREER, and was constant in his impact throughout. Admittedly he was less effective than them, but he played so so long. I'm open to arguments against Stockton but for now I tentatively have him pretty even with Nash.
...
2. Proof that Stockton wasn't even close to the level of impact as Nash (or that it is really close)

What puts Nash over Stockton offensively? He scores a bit more at similar efficiency; Stockton generates more assists at similar efficiency, in fact he generates assists at a rate unmatched in history. So, it's not individual statistics Basically it comes down to the fact that he had Phoenix playing at a great Ortg for 5 (actually 6 years). The team Ortg relative to league for peak Nash Suns from 2005 to 2010 was 8.4, 5.4, 7.4, 5.8, 5.3, 7.7.

However, Stockton also had a run of 4 years in his prime putting up similar ratings relative to league (relative to league because overall offensive efficiency was lower in the 90s due to rules that allowed more defense and coaches not using the 3 pointer as a weapon nearly as well). The Jazz relative Ortg from 95 to 98 was 6.0, 5.7, 6.9, 7.7 . . . very similar to prime Nash (though for 2 less years).

And, Stockton did it with less offensive talent around him. The Jazz had Karl Malone and Jeff Hornacek. But, let's look at the other two positions during these years. The Jazz at center started Felton Spencer, and Greg Ostertag . . . as fine a pair of offensive stiff as anyone not named J Collins. At SF they started David Benoit and Byron Russell . . .well below average offensively. Their primary reserves were Howard Eisley, Adam Keefe, and Antoine Carr (who admittedly could score).

To match up with Malone and Hornacek, the Suns had Amare and Marion. But the other two starters -- 05 Joe Johnson, Q Richardson (not great), 06 Raja Bell (off ball shooter), Boris Diaw, Kurt Thomas (Amare was injured), 07 Bell and Diaw with Barbosa competing for SMOY, 08 Grant Hill, Shaq/Diaw (and Barbosa), 09 Hill, Shaq, and Jason Richardson replacing Marion. 10 Hill, Richardson, and Channing Frye. Basically, Nash was getting similar results (for 2 years longer) but with much greater offensive talent.

I don't see a strong degree of separation between Nash and Stockton offensively. I see a stronger degree of separation between Stockton and Nash on longevity/toughness and defense. Therefore, I rank Stockton over Nash fairly clearly.