penbeast0 wrote:drza wrote:The Worm is one of the players I am most interested to see when he starts getting traction and when he actually gets in (if he gets in). Since those Pistons teams won titles primarily with defense, it might be that Rodman, not Isiah, should be the GOAT Bad Boy.
Absolutely not. People are really using revisionist history on the bad boy Pistons if they believe Rodman was in a primary role (at least until 1990)
A quick review
In 1987 he was a rookie and played the fewest minutes of any rotation player on the Pistons in the regular season and playoffs. He had some really great flashes, being an older rookie helped him acclimate to the league quicker I think, but he was clearly out of his element at times.
In 1988 the Pistons reached the Finals, Rodman was the teams second leading rebounder in about 26 mpg, but those minutes declined to 20 in the postseason, 7th out of nine rotation players and third among bench players. Until the Finals that year, only twice did Rodman play at least 24 minutes in a playoff game.
In 1989 Rodman really started to come into his own, especially leading up to and after the Dantley trade. Rodman was amazing in February of 1989, I'm convinced his play is why they pulled the trigger on the trade as much as Isiah's pushing to add Aguirre. From late January thru February Rodman played 32 mpg, averaged 12 points and 14 rebounds and shot 66% from the field. Laimbeer and Dennis finished neck in neck in rebounds, both just under 10 a game. Dennis got all-defensive recognition and rightly so. But he started to wear down late in the season. His minutes in the playoffs dropped from 27 to 24 a game. He was hobbled during the Chicago and LA series, only playing above 30 twice all postseason and frequently sitting out the fourth quarter with back spasms.
In 1990 Rodman supplanted Aguirre in the starting line-up and he promptly won the Defensive player of the year. He was third on the team in minutes that season and clearly a major part of what they were doing and the success they had. Still, again he wore down considerably and was very much a non-factor during most of the Pistons two most crucial series. Against Chicago he had one brilliant game out of seven, going for 20 and 20 in a game for loss at Chicago. But only one other time did he eclipse 10 rebounds and by the time the Finals rolled around he was useless. He had 6 points and 9 rebounds in game one and couldn't cover Williams or Kersey with his body failing him. In game two, Daly made the poor decision to put in ailing Rodman in on the final defensive play and with his back tightening up, he grabs and fouls Drexler giving Portland the game. Then Rodman misses all of games three and four (Piston wins in Portland with Isiah dominating crunchtime) and plays a minor role in game five with 2 points and 5 rebounds in 31 minutes.
With all due respect to someone who clearly knows his NBA, Rodman has zero argument for being the MVP of the Bad-Boy Pistons.
And with that in mind
my vote this round will be for Isiah Thomas. It pains me to see the likes of Stockton, Nash and Paul above him. Only because I respect the opinions of guys a lot of the guys here who voted for them, and yet they are so, so wrong. But at the end of the day, Isiah has two more rings than all three combined, has been to more Finals than all three combined and has the narrative argument in the bag, despite the statistical one really painting him in an inferior light.
So to borrow a strategy used by those endorsing Ewing, and to follow-up on a superb post by drza, let's take a look at how Isiah Thomas impacted the Pistons offense.
Here's the Pistons offensive rating by year:
1981: Last in the league 23 of 23; the year before Isiah arrives
1982: Still bad 17th of 23; Isiah arrives, along with Kelly T., and they trade for Vinnie Johnson (17 mpg) from Seattle and Bill Laimbeer (31 mpg) from Cleveland mid-season (though Kenny Carr was the piece they coveted in that trade)
1983: Notable improvement to 11th of 23; Vinnie supplants John Long as the second guard, Isiah and Kelly T assume primacy of the offense.
1984: Best in the league. 1st of 23; Daly becomes head coach, Vinnie moves to sixth man but gets crunch time tick, Isiah takes on larger role, leads team in scoring and fga for the first time.
1985: 9th of 23; The defense begins to improve by design as GM Jack McCloskey trades for Dan Roundfield (oops) and the Pistons give the reigns to Isiah completely. Kelly T missed 27 games, Roundfield 26, Long 18, making it difficult on an already thin rotation. First season the defense is top 10 (#9)
1986: 7th of 23; the defense regresses (15th) and so does the team overall. Dumars is drafted and takes over for Long permanently as a starter before mid-season. Rick Mahorn is acquired and moves into rotation but Benson remains starter at PF with Roundfield gone.
1987: 9th of 23; the defense becomes top five as Dumars has a full season as starter and Mahorn supplants Benson and Sidney Green at the PF. Pistons trade Kelly T for Adrian Dantley which gives Detroit a much needed post scorer, though offense does regress slightly overall. Big move is drafting John Salley and Dennis Rodman who provide athletic front court depth which will be key to title runs.
1988: 6th of 23; The defense has become elite by now (2nd overall with a 105.3 rtg) and the starting line-up is recognizable for fans of the title years. Laimbeer, Mahorn, Dumars, Dantley and Isiah. Vinnie, Rodman, Salley and by years end, James Edwards off the bench. Despite Laimbeer regressing offensively, moving to Mahorn at PF, the least offensively gifted player of any who started at that position for the 80's Pistons, Dumars being a downgrade on offense from Long and the two major young players (Worm and Spider) being defensive guys, the offense gets better because Isiah figures out his formula.
1st quarter: Get everyone involved
2nd quarter: Feed the hot hand
3rd quarter: Look for opportunities to score or create
4th quarter: ride the hot hand until I have to get hot and finish the last six minutes
1989: 7th of 25; The Dantley trade fixes chemistry issues and Pistons go 44-6 afterwards en route to title. Aguirre plays less minutes, takes fewer shots, Dumars role grows noticeably on offense and offense improves down the stretch for Detroit which goes 15-2 in postseason.
1990: 11th of 27; Laimbeer and VJ really start to regress, minutes and production drop. Aguirre declines further, by playoffs he's last in eight man rotation. Edwards has resurgent season as starting PF. Mahorn is lost to expansion draft, rotation tightens to eight. Dumars has come into his own by now. Rodman and Salley have career years but their impact is primarily on defense.
Isiah adds three-point shot over the course of the season, shoots 40% over last quarter of the season and 47% in the playoffs on nearly 4 attempts per game, a very high total for the era. Pistons offense is excellent in the playoffs scoring over 100 points per game in 14 of 20 games and going 5-1 when they were held under 100, indicating the game was played at their pace.
The Pistons won with defense because they sacraficed superior offensive players for superior defensive ones and bvecause they had Isiah, it hardly hurt their offense and they were still elite in crunchtime of close games. That's why they won titles. One man can have a much greater impact of offense than he can on defense unless that man is William Felton Russell.
In addition to all the nice things I say about Isiah in my case for Thomas post, I will reemphasize this clip between Zeke and Salley after the 1989 title. "You did this ****. You're the **** man. You made it happen."
That's what the game is all about.
https://youtu.be/2eDWR_zgaNw?t=1h49m15sSecond vote: Kevin Durant
