RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60

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mikejames23
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60 

Post#21 » by mikejames23 » Thu Nov 9, 2017 10:54 pm

Runoff Vote: Dave Cowens.


With Willis Reed gone, this really felt like a back to back type of choice. Unseld, Reed, Hayes, Cowens are roughly in the same league even if they seem to be voted some 10-15 spots apart on this list. Cowens only falls short of Reed because of his scoring. It was sometimes very MEH for a Top 50s all timer. He made it up with his defense, rebounding, passing and virtue of being on good to great teams - he had some help with guys like JoJo White, Havlicek etc. but also managed to overcome Kareem/Oscar bucks or stiff competition from other bigs such as Thrumond, McAdoo. There seems to be only pro-Cowens material on intangibles, leadership etc. as he just seemed to fit in with the flow. Actually interesting he's one of the 5 greats to be on the list for leading his team in all 5 major stat categories. Cowens like Hayes and most 70s bigmen were very capable of handling tough physical play, and this was likely the reason his career ended a tad earlier than it should have. Anyway, not much to say about him beyond this.


Hmm, I actually have Vince Carter behind all these legends. Perhaps I am rating the past players too high, or being too forgiving for their lack of medical tech. VC's serious longevity likely lands him a spot in the 60's. Otherwise, he didn't make a single All NBA team past 01 and never really was a serious MVP candidate. At his best he barely scratched the Top 10 and I wonder if the talk about VC's lack of playoff strength in the Deep Playoffs was a real issue.

However, he does well enough with all time W/S and really well with VORP, etc. for him to give him the nod in a bit here. He's likely go after Harden, T-Mac, maybe English or Hayes too. Actually I think Carter vs Nique is a good debate.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60 

Post#22 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Nov 9, 2017 11:40 pm

Fundamentals21 wrote:Runoff Vote: Dave Cowens.


With Willis Reed gone, this really felt like a back to back type of choice. Unseld, Reed, Hayes, Cowens are roughly in the same league even if they seem to be voted some 10-15 spots apart on this list. Cowens only falls short of Reed because of his scoring. It was sometimes very MEH for a Top 50s all timer. He made it up with his defense, rebounding, passing and virtue of being on good to great teams - he had some help with guys like JoJo White, Havlicek etc. but also managed to overcome Kareem/Oscar bucks or stiff competition from other bigs such as Thrumond, McAdoo. There seems to be only pro-Cowens material on intangibles, leadership etc. as he just seemed to fit in with the flow. Actually interesting he's one of the 5 greats to be on the list for leading his team in all 5 major stat categories. Cowens like Hayes and most 70s bigmen were very capable of handling tough physical play, and this was likely the reason his career ended a tad earlier than it should have. Anyway, not much to say about him beyond this.


Hmm, I actually have Vince Carter behind all these legends. Perhaps I am rating the past players too high, or being too forgiving for their lack of medical tech. VC's serious longevity likely lands him a spot in the 60's. Otherwise, he didn't make a single All NBA team past 01 and never really was a serious MVP candidate. At his best he barely scratched the Top 10 and I wonder if the talk about VC's lack of playoff strength in the Deep Playoffs was a real issue.

However, he does well enough with all time W/S and really well with VORP, etc. for him to give him the nod in a bit here. He's likely go after Harden, T-Mac, maybe English or Hayes too. Actually I think Carter vs Nique is a good debate.


Man I couldn't have said this better! I tend to go Nique > English, but otherwise we're in lock step here. I respect the heck out of Carter's late career role player stuff, but he's not added all that much value, and his playoff games total remains rather awful for his era, despite being one of the all time leaders in games played now. I could even see going with Sam Jones and Arzin over him. Thurmond as well. That said I have some rookie cards of his somewhere, they were worth like 100 bucks back when he was a rookie....maybe you guys can prop him up and I can sell them?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60 

Post#23 » by pandrade83 » Thu Nov 9, 2017 11:57 pm

Dave cowens is my alternate vote. He anchored elite defenses, was the best player on a title team and a strong #2 on another; also won MVP on an elite team that lost in '73.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60 

Post#24 » by Outside » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:16 am

Arguments in Cowens' favor:

-- MVP
-- Primary player on two title teams
-- All NBA 3 times (2nd team) compared to 2 times for Carter (2nd and 3rd team)
-- All Defensive 3 times (1st team once, 2nd team twice)
-- 5 seasons with MVP shares (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th) compared to 4 for Carter (10th, 11th, 13th, 16th)
-- Greater PS experience (1 more game, 3,760 minutes compared to 3,033 for Carter)

Arguments in Carter's favor:

-- Much greater RS longevity
-- Carter 18.1 PPG, 43.7 FG%, 79.9 FT%, 37.3 3PT%, 53.6 TS% compared to Cowens 17.6 PPG, 46.0 FG%, 78.3 FT%, 49.6 TS%
-- Floor spacer

Cowens also passes the eye test as the more impactful player. This seems an easy call to me, unless you value RS longevity above everything else.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List #60: RUNOFF! Carter vs Cowens 

Post#25 » by trex_8063 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:46 pm

Thru post #24:

Dave Cowens - 6 (fundamentals21, pandrade83, Clyde Frazier, dhsilv2, penbeast0, Outside)
Vince Carter - 3 (Dr Positivity, LABird, Joao Saraiva)


Calling it a little early for Cowens, as I'm likely to get too busy later this afternoon. Would need four votes, ALL for Carter in the next two hours to change the result anyway.
Will have the next thread up in a moment.

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