High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[Long2s]

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)


Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)


Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)


Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

Thanks for the stats, but again, I don't see the relevance to what we're discussing, which is in the title: "high volume scoring in the playoffs".

I simply do not see the relevance of your post compared to that? What players average in elimination or playoff games might indeed be a worthy thing to examine, but it has very close to zero relevance to my singular examination of "high volume scoring in the playoffs".

[bledredwine]

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)


Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)


Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)


Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

What is this crap? 46 close out games, as in the final game of a playoff series? For jordan? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Did he even have 46 playoff series? Way to make up stats. You guys are getting desperate. This is what you resort to, since Jordan's prime playoff numbers are so much better

[dhsilv2]

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)


Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)


Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)


Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

Why are you using .88 instead of .44 for TS%?

You can delete this, I'm an idiot...you distributed the x2.

[dhsilv2]

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)


Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)


Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)


Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

What is this crap? 46 close out games, as in the final game of a playoff series? For jordan? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Did he even have 46 playoff series? Way to make up stats. You guys are getting desperate. This is what you resort to, since Jordan's prime playoff numbers are so much better

Each game where a team can eliminate another is a close out game. So for example in 88 there were 4 such games despite just playing 2 series. 5 in 89...5 in 90 and you can go on.

[Long2s]

Add in TS%, assists, and turnovers please. Also since this is FGA, PPG? Maybe free throw rate?

I'm not sure there's much to discuss there beyond MJ took a lot of playoff shots often.

I don't mind adding TS% though I don't think it is really that interesting and it won't change all that much. EFG% already factors in differences in 3 point shooting, so it's just left to who gets to the line more, which of course is also important, but more subject to different rules as well.

Assists? Well, I am not looking at playmaking, strictly high volume scoring. Turnovers yes, I do think that is important.

With Kobe and MJ who are shooting guards, sure volume scoring doesn't care as much about passing. But the question I risk think is, are they shooting more or just dominating the ball more? Lebron being a point kinda changes the dynamic though. Still assists give us a better idea of if they're dominating the ball or quickly shooting or kinda being the old "blackhole", all be it it not conclusive. That's actually why I want turnovers. Same with free throw, it shows us how they're playing. Are they drawing contact or just taking jumpers?

I understand your point, but I feel like the stats here are not all that explanatory. How do we know which turnovers are from attempts to score or from increased passing? We don't and thus we simply can rely on raw turnovers to AST/TOV, which again are not really useful because we don't know the circumstance. There's a reason why AST/TOV is not really used a lot. It generally says something about overall ball security in general, but not a lot more. It's a "taking care of the ball" stat.

I sort of agree with FTs, but I find it difficult to compare across eras due to vastly different rules and average Ftr. Like how would we interpret a higher FTr for Lebron? That he gets fouled more because he is just unstoppable or that he gets more fouls because of different rules? What if it was vice versa with MJ? I don't know. Is it meaningful in this context? I honestly don't even know what the result would be.

[Long2s]

I agree, though I think that might defeat the purpose . >30 FGA seems a somewhat arbitrary thing, too (not always a good thing for one individual fire away so often).
I'll try something a bit more complete and little less arbitrary.....

MJ in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (46 games)
11.89 FGM/25.22 FGA (47.16%)
0.89 3PM/2.80 3PA (31.78%)
48.92% eFG%
.371 FTr
54.92% TS%
32.22 ppg
6.37 rpg
5.76 apg
2.09 spg
0.98 bpg
3.30 topg
116.92 ORtg/107.46 DRtg (+9.46)
Avg GameScore 23.47
Team record: 32-14 (.696)


Kobe in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs, excluding '97 and '98 (54 games)
9.72 FGM/21.76 FGA (44.68%)
1.69 3PM/4.67 3PA (36.11%)
48.55% eFG%
.350 FTr
54.28% TS%
27.26 ppg
5.63 rpg
4.81 apg
1.56 spg
0.78 bpg
3.00 topg
110.06 ORtg/108.17 DRtg (+1.89)
Avg GameScore 18.71
Team Record: 33-21 (.611)


Lebron in all elimination and/or close-out games in the playoffs (53 games)
9.98 FGM/21.15 FGA (47.19%)
1.70 3PM/5.25 3PA (32.37%)
51.20% eFG%
.484 FTr
57.28% TS%
29.40 ppg
9.77 rpg
7.30 apg
1.68 spg
1.04 bpg
3.74 topg
117.30 ORtg/100.79 DRtg (+16.51)
Avg GameScore 24.05
Team Record: 39-14 (.736)


Sorry, haven't done Iverson.

So there's no accusations of fudging the numbers, here's link to the spreadsheet so anyone can double-check my work (games are specified, so easy to reference).

What is this crap? 46 close out games, as in the final game of a playoff series? For jordan? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Did he even have 46 playoff series? Way to make up stats. You guys are getting desperate. This is what you resort to, since Jordan's prime playoff numbers are so much better

Each game where a team can eliminate another is a close out game. So for example in 88 there were 4 such games despite just playing 2 series. 5 in 89...5 in 90 and you can go on.

Yes, but it has absolutely ZERO to do with what I showed in the OP. I mean, it's "moving the goalposts" and not subtly, but to a different field and with a different ball.

[dhsilv2]

I don't mind adding TS% though I don't think it is really that interesting and it won't change all that much. EFG% already factors in differences in 3 point shooting, so it's just left to who gets to the line more, which of course is also important, but more subject to different rules as well.

Assists? Well, I am not looking at playmaking, strictly high volume scoring. Turnovers yes, I do think that is important.

With Kobe and MJ who are shooting guards, sure volume scoring doesn't care as much about passing. But the question I risk think is, are they shooting more or just dominating the ball more? Lebron being a point kinda changes the dynamic though. Still assists give us a better idea of if they're dominating the ball or quickly shooting or kinda being the old "blackhole", all be it it not conclusive. That's actually why I want turnovers. Same with free throw, it shows us how they're playing. Are they drawing contact or just taking jumpers?

I understand your point, but I feel like the stats here are not all that explanatory. How do we know which turnovers are from attempts to score or from increased passing? We don't and thus we simply can rely on raw turnovers to AST/TOV, which again are not really useful because we don't know the circumstance. There's a reason why AST/TOV is not really used a lot. It generally says something about overall ball security in general, but not a lot more. It's a "taking care of the ball" stat.

I sort of agree with FTs, but I find it difficult to compare across eras due to vastly different rules and average Ftr. Like how would we interpret a higher FTr for Lebron? That he gets fouled more because he is just unstoppable or that he gets more fouls because of different rules? What if it was vice versa with MJ? I don't know. Is it meaningful in this context? I honestly don't even know what the result would be.

Well their career averages for any stats are avaible rather easily for the playoffs on basketball reference. I'd compare MJ to MJ and lebron to Lebron. When they have these big games, what other metrics move and how far from their mean? That's why in the other thread I included their averages so one could see their big games next to their normal games.

[Long2s]

As for the 30 FGA being arbitrary, yes, if it should be "objective" then we would look at something like standard deviation compared to the mean. As in, how does a player perform, when pushed to the tail end of his FGA gaussian curve, but this would not be entirely fair for someone like MJ since his mean is so above other player's mean. We could look at how does a player perform compared to league average FGA mean (pr. 36 and having some minimum FGA attempts), that would be more of an objective measure.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Come on guys, this is a useful stats bring some discussion.

No, it's a pointless stat and that's being really generous. You seem to think you are examining high volume scoring, but you aren't. You are examining high volume shooting. I mean you leave out LeBron's 45 point masterpiece against the Celtics since he only took 26 shots. I'm fairly certain that qualifies as high volume scoring. This is a stat that tells us nothing worth knowing.

[dhsilv2]

Sorry about the formatting, caught the issue after I took the image and yeah sorry I don't have a way to break up playoffs and regular season...or maybe I'm too stubborn as I don't see enough value in separating them.

edit and darn it, yeah on the right side that's PPG for the 4th column for all tables. Sorry, was just trying to quickly get this out.

[CoffeeCakez]

I've been studying for the next round of exams non-stop so haven't had the chance to look at the forum much - but seriously thank you Long2s for taking out time to finding valuable data such as this and the clutch stats in your last thread.

I will chime in whenever I can; dental school sucks

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe is 7-10 in playoff games where he took more than 30 shots.

LeBron 7-6.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Long2s]

dhsilv2, if you use TS%, you should probably include FTr, because from what you posted it is clear Lebron gets a lot more freethrows than MJ and Kobe.

[trex_8063]

What is this crap? 46 close out games, as in the final game of a playoff series? For jordan? Do you realize how insane that sounds? Did he even have 46 playoff series? Way to make up stats. You guys are getting desperate. This is what you resort to, since Jordan's prime playoff numbers are so much better

Wow.
I provided a link to the spreadsheet so any and all could check the work----each game referenced with series situation and game date, so very easy to check and see if the numbers are accurate: total transparency----and I specifically even stated the reason I was doing so was to avoid silly accusations of "fudging the numbers".......and yet here you are. That's......special.

I guess it's not the first time we've seen posters in these nauseating Lebron/Jordan threads resort to flatly declaring stats that go against their favored narrative must be "made up" (speaking of desperation). The And1 for the patently false accusation.......well, I guess if the agenda and desired narrative of the poster handing out the And1 wasn't 100% clear previously, it sure is now!

But sorry, not made up. Again, each and every game on the spreadsheets are referenced by series, game #, and date. You can look them up for yourself on bbref easy enough and see if the numbers are accurate. In fact, I'd suggest doing so (and maybe finding at least ONE mis-reported game) before making these kinds of accusations. And I'd think carefully before replying again. Consider this an informal warning. It's hard to view a baseless accusation like this, in light of the fact that I was 100% transparent from the beginning, as anything other than baiting/trolling.


As to the number of games. Stated clearly is "elimination and/or close-out games": that is, any game in which the team is facing elimination and/or has a chance to close-out the series (i.e. their opponent is facing elimination). Each series will have at least one elimination or close-out game. Again: at least is the operative there (as in at least one, but not limited to only one).
Hypothetical example #1: team gets down 3-0 in a series--->Game 4 is then an elimination game (if they lose, their playoff is done). They win game 4. So a game 5 happens--->which is also an elimination game.
Hypothetical example #2: team gets up on their opponent 3-0 in a series--->Game 4 is then a close-out game (they have a chance end the series right there). The other team wins; we go to a game 5, which is also a close-out game.
Real example from recent history: the '16 Finals--->Lebron and the Cavs played THREE elimination games in that ONE series.

Jordan played in a total of 39 playoff series's; not hard to imagine how 46 elimination and/or close-out games happened.

[Long2s]

^ What does it have to do with "high volume scoring in the playoffs"?

[Joao Saraiva]

You say high scoring then you put a filter on FGA... At least make the cut with points or something. You just keep on making the cuts that make LBJ look bad vs MJ or something. Glad you got furious when trex posted the elimination games stats with LBJ kicking anyone else's ass.

It's just about the situation really. LeBron has had some situations where he tops MJ, and MJ has some thing he tops LBJ. They're just different animals.

[poopdamoop]

This is even dumber than your usual topics. You aren't measuring high volume scoring, you're measuring high volume shooting. In Lebron's case, 5/7 of his best scoring performances came when he shot under 30 FGAs, while all of MJ's best games are included in your sample size. Disingenuous is putting it mildly.

[Arrow]

You say high scoring then you put a filter on FGA... At least make the cut with points or something. You just keep on making the cuts that make LBJ look bad vs MJ or something. Glad you got furious when trex posted the elimination games stats with LBJ kicking anyone else's ass.

It's just about the situation really. LeBron has had some situations where he tops MJ, and MJ has some thing he tops LBJ. They're just different animals.

This.

The guy's posts just reek of desperation. He's specifically looking for criteria in which LeBron does poorer compared to Jordan and/or Kobe, and he found the 30 FGA one, because LeBron shot poorer in his 30+ FGA attempt games than Jordan and Kobe, but if dhsilv2's table is accurate, looking at it in any other way, LeBron comes out on top.

[Long2s]

Kobe is 7-10 in playoff games where he took more than 30 shots.

LeBron 7-6.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

MJ?

[Long2s]

You say high scoring then you put a filter on FGA... At least make the cut with points or something. You just keep on making the cuts that make LBJ look bad vs MJ or something. Glad you got furious when trex posted the elimination games stats with LBJ kicking anyone else's ass.

As the young kids say "FAIL!".

1) I said "high volume scoring" not "high scoring". If the difference is not clear to you I suggest googling the meaning of the word "volume".

2) I did not get mad at all, you're confusing me for another poster. I just asked Trex, and got no reply in 3 posts, why he posted something that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Trex made a blatant strawman/moving goal posts.

More reading, less failing, is my suggestion to you.