Where would a prime Joe Dumars rank among SGs and players overall today?

[pandrade83]

Feels like Brad Beal with a slightly worse shot but better D.

[JRsmithereens]

Regarding Dumar's defense, the player I'd compare his defense to today for reference is Fred VanVleet. Fred is only 5'11 with an average wingspan for his size, and he only has average athleticism, but he moves his feet incredibly well, he understands positioning, and he knows how to use his hands. He's shut down point guards that are much bigger than him. Dumars is more athletic than Fred, but in today's league I'd probably say he's above average to good, in the same ballpark as Bradley Beal, which is why I love that comparison so much on top of how similar their offensive games are.

But as Fred has shown you don't need out of this world athleticism to be a great defender.

It's too bad that there isn't a compilation out there of Joe Dumars' defense (I figured there would be one since the greatest player of all time said he was the best at defending him), though to get a good idea of Dumars' defense, just imagine Fred in this video, but more athletic and 6'3.

Watch on YouTube

No Dumars defense video but yea Fred Van Fleet is relevant enough lol

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[Jiminy Glick]

He would be the best traditional shooting guard if you want to build the best possible team.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think he'd be in the 15-20 range overall today. He was a damn good player and fmvp.

[penbeast0]

Joe was indeed a rich man's Avery Bradley.

Strengths . . . excellent man defense, good midrange shot (in today's league he would certainly extend to 3, whether he would be elite is unknown since he wasn't in his day, good playmaking for a 2.

Weaknesses . . . below average playmaking for a 1, undersized, more a shooter than a scorer, possibly the worst starting player ever in terms of generating blocks (and pretty low steal rate too).

What Avery Bradley's reputation claimed he was is a reasonable estimate though with slightly better playmaking and less block/steals.

[Cavsfansince84]

Joe was indeed a rich man's Avery Bradley.

Strengths . . . excellent man defense, good midrange shot (in today's league he would certainly extend to 3, whether he would be elite is unknown since he wasn't in his day, good playmaking for a 2.

Weaknesses . . . below average playmaking for a 1, undersized, more a shooter than a scorer, possibly the worst starting player ever in terms of generating blocks (and pretty low steal rate too).

What Avery Bradley's reputation claimed he was is a reasonable estimate though with slightly better playmaking and less block/steals.

The bolded part makes little sense to me because he was definitely seen as an elite 3 pt shooter in his day and had started shooting 4+ per game by 93 at close to 40% at a time when the league average was in the 30-33% range up until 95 when the line got brought in and it shot up to 36%. So he was elite in his day and I think he'd be close to that today as well.

[penbeast0]

Thought I was wrong so I looked it up. Dumars shot less than one 3 a game until 91-92 when he raised it to 1.5 a game on over .400. But the next 3 years he actually started shooting them in the range you are talking about, his average was good (2 at around .380, 1 at .305) around .360 v. a league average of a bit over .340. So, good 3 point shooter. For some reason I didn't remember him as a big 3 point shooter but clearly he developed into one so thank you for clarifying that.

[CodeBreaker]

Top 10-15

[Kabookalu]

Dumars should be able to do fine in today's league as an SG, but it would put his team at a disadvantage no matter how good he is defensively. It's probably not a fair example given it's the Warriors, but the Pelicans were an excellent defensive team once they acquired Mirotic. The Warriors toyed with them, and while you can say that's just the Warriors being the Warriors, their lack of length and size in the backcourt with Rondo and Jrue was really apparent. Granted Moore at the 3 didn't help either.

Against the Rockets, individually I'd probably take the Pelicans player defensively when you cross compare them to each position, but Houston had length in most positions, and it bothered the Warriors.

As an SG there aren't many in the league today I'd take over Dumars, but I'd want him to pair him up with a big PG, like Simmons or Wall or Harden. If he's your team's SG and he's bigger and longer than your PG, it's going to put your team in a tough position in today's NBA climate.

[HeartBreakKid]

Dumars should be able to do fine in today's league as an SG, but it would put his team at a disadvantage no matter how good he is defensively. It's probably not a fair example given it's the Warriors, but the Pelicans were an excellent defensive team once they acquired Mirotic. The Warriors toyed with them, and while you can say that's just the Warriors being the Warriors, their lack of length and size in the backcourt with Rondo and Jrue was really apparent. Granted Moore at the 3 didn't help either.

Against the Rockets, individually I'd probably take the Pelicans player defensively when you cross compare them to each position, but Houston had length in most positions, and it bothered the Warriors.

As an SG there aren't many in the league today I'd take over Dumars, but I'd want him to pair him up with a big PG, like Simmons or Wall or Harden. If he's your team's SG and he's bigger and longer than your PG, it's going to put your team in a tough position in today's NBA climate.

- Pelicans were able to shut down Lillard and CJ despite playing two point guards.

- You already cited that the Pelicans weakness was that they have no small forward. Jrue Holiday was never a problem for them, and was arguably their most impactful defender. Joe Dumars is the same size as Jrue Holiday.

- The Warriors beating them doesn't really mean anything other than the Warriors are significantly more talented - which they are.

- It is ironic you would cite the rockets, because CP3 often guards wings and he is only 5'11.

- Kyle Lowry is also a good defender and he is only 5'11.

Players like Harden and DeRozan might have "shooting guard" size, but they are useless on defense, so it doesn't make much sense to cite them as problems to solving mismatches, they cause mismatches defensively because they are so bad despite their size.

Joe Dumars wouldn't be any less effective if he was paired with a small point guard like Kyle Lowry. He is tall enough that he can reasonably guard most 2 guards in the league, and his IQ is good enough that he could guard 2 guards that have physical advantages over him.

[Kabookalu]

Dumars should be able to do fine in today's league as an SG, but it would put his team at a disadvantage no matter how good he is defensively. It's probably not a fair example given it's the Warriors, but the Pelicans were an excellent defensive team once they acquired Mirotic. The Warriors toyed with them, and while you can say that's just the Warriors being the Warriors, their lack of length and size in the backcourt with Rondo and Jrue was really apparent. Granted Moore at the 3 didn't help either.

Against the Rockets, individually I'd probably take the Pelicans player defensively when you cross compare them to each position, but Houston had length in most positions, and it bothered the Warriors.

As an SG there aren't many in the league today I'd take over Dumars, but I'd want him to pair him up with a big PG, like Simmons or Wall or Harden. If he's your team's SG and he's bigger and longer than your PG, it's going to put your team in a tough position in today's NBA climate.

- Pelicans were able to shut down Lillard and CJ despite playing two point guards.

- You already cited that the Pelicans weakness was that they have no small forward. Jrue Holiday was never a problem for them, and was arguably their most impactful defender. Joe Dumars is the same size as Jrue Holiday.

- The Warriors beating them doesn't really mean anything other than the Warriors are significantly more talented - which they are.

- It is ironic you would cite the rockets, because CP3 often guards wings and he is only 5'11.

- Kyle Lowry is also a good defender and he is only 5'11.

Players like Harden and DeRozan might have "shooting guard" size, but they are useless on defense, so it doesn't make much sense to cite them as problems to solving mismatches, they cause mismatches defensively because they are so bad despite their size.

Joe Dumars wouldn't be any less effective if he was paired with a small point guard like Kyle Lowry. He is tall enough that he can reasonably guard most 2 guards in the league, and his IQ is good enough that he could guard 2 guards that have physical advantages over him.

McCollum himself is short for a shooting guard.

I didn't say there's anything wrong with short guards. Though if between the two Dumars is the bigger and longer one, that puts your team at a disadvantage. It'll work fine in the regular season, but not as much in the playoffs. Today's NBA puts a lot more emphasis on help defense than man defense, diminishing his best strength on defense.

Harden has been useless defensively for most of his career, but for the 2018 playoffs he actually played great, and did a great job of guarding Durant at times.

[jojo4341]

One of my favorite players of all time both on and off the court. Most of the points have already been discussed such as him being a jack of all trades combo guard and being a great man to man defender against the likes of MJ. I also don't think size will be an issue. He's even guarded Magic Johnson in spurts. Obviously the rules are different since he's retired but the one thing I can say for certain that would carry over his is BBIQ. He didn't just have tunnel vision and played man to man...he also had the awareness to funnel his man where he wanted them to be and where the defense would help. I believe he could achieve the same thing while adapting to switches in this era but it's speculation at this point.

I agree with the top 10-15 assessment. He was like the perfect sidekick. Able to do whatever was needed on both sides but at the same time, could take over a game or series as he did in the finals. His ability to create his own shot and dribbling was also underrated being next to Isiah.