Re: #4 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Dr Positivity]

That makes it tricky, but I changed my vote to DJ if he's only available at PG

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

ATL is the team that I see overachieving the most defensively (although they didn't seem to suffer in the non-Mookie years when they had Fast Eddie Johnson who was another outstanding defensive guard if not an upstanding citizen).
and does real analysis of the early players.

I don't get this. Mookie played for Atlanta from '93-'99. Eddie's last full year in Atlanta was '86. That's quite a stretch.

Doc Rivers had almost all the years between Eddie Johnson and Mookie Blaylock. Not that that helps any.

Doc rivers was a good defender. Fratello teams usually play good defense and the play at a slow pace.
Atlanta's defense got bad after Blaylock left.

[Lost92Bricks]

Here is an article about CP3's defense, check it out >>> http://grantland.com/features/department-of-defense/

They tracked every player's defense in 2014 and he measured out as the best perimeter defender in the league, not just amongst point guards, but all perimeter players.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I have Dennis Johnson as a SG. His Seattle career is at SG and I always assumed Ainge was the PG and DJ the SG in Boston

No, not Ainge. That was my home team. In the 1986 Bulls Celtics matchup you got DJ on Jordan and Ainge on Paxson but Paxson is not really what I think of when I think of guarding a point guard. DJ will take the tougher assignment but Ainge would not do well guarding an average point guard. Ainge is fine vs most off gurads.

In 1984 Henderson gurds the point guards. After that the point guard position belongs to Dennis Johnson.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I guess there won't be tweener guard category in this series. There won't be a center forward position for Duncan. So I guess it is OK to consider Dennis Johnson a point guard. West is easier than DJ because West does not spend as much time playing next to people who are clearly point guards.

West is playing with guys about his size. Basketball reference is usually pretty good about getting positions right but basketball reference and most fans prioritize offensive position over defensive position. That is why Magic Johnson is a point guard without guarding point guards.

[PistolPeteJR]

My vote goes for West. He’s gotta go after GP. He was that relevant to the team’s success on that end without a great defensive big, which most defensively-talented guards benefited from.

[Luigi]

3265 "Stockton steals!" led to so many "Hammer dunk!"s on the break.

Kidd is next with 2684, Jordan 2514, and Payton 2445. Steals don't make you a good defender, but, that many swing points from John make a difference for me. My vote is Stockton.

[penbeast0]

I don't get this. Mookie played for Atlanta from '93-'99. Eddie's last full year in Atlanta was '86. That's quite a stretch.

You are right and I remembered it wrong.

[Gibson22]

No love for Nate

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote for Jerry West.

I am suspecting that the lack of votes for West may be based on some voters who never saw him play. Based solely on eye test, Jerry West impacted the game with his help defense more than any of the others listed here. A good part of this was his off-the-charts bball IQ. He was like having a second coach on the floor; his knowledge of the game took his defense beyond just a compilation of his physical skills. It was as if he seemed to know what the offense was going to do, and thus his anticipation just seemed to put him in the right position to anticipate a pass or drive. While I acknowledge that there may have been a few that were even better solely as a shutdown man-defender, his help defense at the guard position was GOAT-level. His defense is tremendously underrated by a lot of fans today, most of whom never actually saw him play live. As a result, Jerry West gets my vote. In 1970, Bill Russell stated that as great as West was on offense, he was actually an even better player on defense. He added that he didn't just view West as the best defensive guard in the game, he was the best defensive player. Of course, Russell had just retired so he wasn't necessarily implying that West was better on D than he was - just that he felt West was the best defensive player in the league now that he was no longer playing.

West was named 4 times to the NBA All-Defensive First Team and once to the second team. I think it is a safe bet that he would have at least 5 more all-defensive honors if such an award had existed throughout his career; he was already 30 before the creation of the All Defensive team award.

[Samurai]

3265 "Stockton steals!" led to so many "Hammer dunk!"s on the break.

Kidd is next with 2684, Jordan 2514, and Payton 2445. Steals don't make you a good defender, but, that many swing points from John make a difference for me. My vote is Stockton.

Isn't that a significant methodology flaw to base the decision on a stat that did not even exist before 1974? How do you know that others would not have recorded as many steals, or more, than Stockton if the NBA had recorded that stat during their career?

[LA Bird]

I would lean towards DJ/Stockton here. I like Jerry West but he doesn't belong in the top 5 on a defense only list. And I hope people can stop bringing up Russell's claim of West being the best defender in the game as an actual argument. It's nothing more than a nice complement to a fellow player. Kareem called Earl Manigault the greatest player he played against but nobody uses that line as an argument for ranking Manigault above Jordan, Bird, etc.

[Samurai]

I would lean towards DJ/Stockton here. I like Jerry West but he doesn't belong in the top 5 on a defense only list. And I hope people can stop bringing up Russell's claim of West being the best defender in the game as an actual argument. It's nothing more than a nice complement to a fellow player. Kareem called Earl Manigault the greatest player he played against but nobody uses that line as an argument for ranking Manigault above Jordan, Bird, etc.

I disagree with your hope. First, the reason why it is being brought up is because for simplicity sake, I and other posters choose to copy the argument from previous rounds, as was often the case in the Top 100 project. Second, my opinion is that many of the people who don't vote for West never even saw him play live. So for those who never even saw a player being discussed play, statements about how he was actually viewed at the time he played is a legitimate data point. How much weight any poster chooses to give to that or any other data point is their own decision; your interpretation of how much weight you choose to give it only applies to your own vote, not others. It would be the same to say "I wish people would stop using on-off data, win shares, all-defensive team awards, etc., as an actual argument for X." Whether I choose to give significant, little, or no weight to any particular data point does not give me the right to tell others not to use that data point.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

No love for Nate

I could consider going for Nate.
I don't have a clear choice.

[pandrade83]

ATL is the team that I see overachieving the most defensively (although they didn't seem to suffer in the non-Mookie years when they had Fast Eddie Johnson who was another outstanding defensive guard if not an upstanding citizen).
and does real analysis of the early players.

I don't get this. Mookie played for Atlanta from '93-'99. Eddie's last full year in Atlanta was '86. That's quite a stretch.

Doc Rivers had almost all the years between Eddie Johnson and Mookie Blaylock. Not that that helps any.

Doc rivers was a good defender. Fratello teams usually play good defense and the play at a slow pace.
Atlant's defense got bad after Blaylock left.

I'm real high on Blaylock & think he is amongst the most underrated players, but don't forget that there were many factors at play there - not the least of which is Mutombo.

[Samurai]

I’ll add a vote for John Stockton. West and Buse were super close, but what put Stockton over the top for me was certain advanced stats (someone mentioned his incredible PM numbers in the other thread) combined with incredible longevity. Stockton was the best player ever bar none at sniping the post, plus he was a smart help defender and great at pushing his guy just barely away from the spots he wanted to get to.

I’d also urge people to consider Norm Van Lier, if only for the unprecedented levels of scrappiness to the tune of eight all defensive teams (if I remember right). He deserves more buzz in this discussion than he’s been getting, IMO.

Van Lier is a great mention. Based on the eye test, I think he was a better one-on-one defender than Stockton, although Stockton would rank ahead of him due to his help defense and far superior longevity. Full disclosure: I never saw Van Lier as a Royal, only as a Bull so my comments are limited to his time in Chicago. But at his peak as a Bull, he was a superior shutdown man defender. Not as good of a help defender as West or Stockton, but he and Sloan were tough as nails and didn't back down from anyone in man-defense.

[LA Bird]

I would lean towards DJ/Stockton here. I like Jerry West but he doesn't belong in the top 5 on a defense only list. And I hope people can stop bringing up Russell's claim of West being the best defender in the game as an actual argument. It's nothing more than a nice complement to a fellow player. Kareem called Earl Manigault the greatest player he played against but nobody uses that line as an argument for ranking Manigault above Jordan, Bird, etc.

I disagree with your hope. First, the reason why it is being brought up is because for simplicity sake, I and other posters choose to copy the argument from previous rounds, as was often the case in the Top 100 project. Second, my opinion is that many of the people who don't vote for West never even saw him play live. So for those who never even saw a player being discussed play, statements about how he was actually viewed at the time he played is a legitimate data point. How much weight any poster chooses to give to that or any other data point is their own decision; your interpretation of how much weight you choose to give it only applies to your own vote, not others. It would be the same to say "I wish people would stop using on-off data, win shares, all-defensive team awards, etc., as an actual argument for X." Whether I choose to give significant, little, or no weight to any particular data point does not give me the right to tell others not to use that data point.

The words of one man is just an opinion and using it in an argument is an appeal to authority. If you want general opinion of a player's defense, then All Defensive teams can be used. Using All Defensive selections for players from earlier eras with little footage / stats is certainly reasonable. What I don't like is the use of quotes from players - just because a player is great doesn't mean what they say is true (see Kareem on Manigault).

Everybody is entitled to their own criteria but that doesn't mean their opinion is immune from criticism. You can vote for whoever you want for whatever reason you like and I have every right to say if I think the argument is a good or bad one.

[Samurai]

I would lean towards DJ/Stockton here. I like Jerry West but he doesn't belong in the top 5 on a defense only list. And I hope people can stop bringing up Russell's claim of West being the best defender in the game as an actual argument. It's nothing more than a nice complement to a fellow player. Kareem called Earl Manigault the greatest player he played against but nobody uses that line as an argument for ranking Manigault above Jordan, Bird, etc.

I disagree with your hope. First, the reason why it is being brought up is because for simplicity sake, I and other posters choose to copy the argument from previous rounds, as was often the case in the Top 100 project. Second, my opinion is that many of the people who don't vote for West never even saw him play live. So for those who never even saw a player being discussed play, statements about how he was actually viewed at the time he played is a legitimate data point. How much weight any poster chooses to give to that or any other data point is their own decision; your interpretation of how much weight you choose to give it only applies to your own vote, not others. It would be the same to say "I wish people would stop using on-off data, win shares, all-defensive team awards, etc., as an actual argument for X." Whether I choose to give significant, little, or no weight to any particular data point does not give me the right to tell others not to use that data point.

The words of one man is just an opinion and using it in an argument is an appeal to authority. If you want general opinion of a player's defense, then All Defensive teams can be used. Using All Defensive selections for players from earlier eras with little footage / stats is certainly reasonable. What I don't like is the use of quotes from players - just because a player is great doesn't mean what they say is true (see Kareem on Manigault).

Everybody is entitled to their own criteria but that doesn't mean their opinion is immune from criticism. You can vote for whoever you want for whatever reason you like and I have every right to say if I think the argument is a good or bad one.

As I pointed out, I am not objecting to you stating your own criteria for how you vote. My objection is to your saying " I hope people can stop bringing up Russell's claim of West being the best defender in the game as an actual argument." Having your own opinion is different than asking others not to have a criteria that you don't use. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "I don't place much weight on X", again because that is your own opinion and criteria. But I do take exception to you telling me not to use my criteria/opinion on MY votes. There is a big distinction between you having your own opinion and you asking others not to use an opinion that you don't favor.

[uberhikari]

I vote Chris Paul.

His combination of DRAPM, DRPM, on/off splits, and longevity (11 years) makes him the obvious choice.

[Gibson22]

Guys, remember to bold your vote.
Anyway, this one is pretty open, it looks like the race it's between cp3, stockton, jerry west and dennis johnson