(#1) Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[kendogg]

Michael Jordan. The only reason he didn't win more defensive accolades is the amount of energy he poured into offense (and baseball). He played on great defensive teams with great players like Pippen and Rodman so he wasn't always guarding the best threat, but on the quicker guys, he likely was down the stretch as Jordan was able to guard opposing guards better than perhaps anyone in history. Later in his career he added strength and became on of the strongest guards to ever play. He was an outstanding defensive player his entire career and matches all guards alongside Payton (who I thought should be #1 PG) for # of first team all defense selections. Outstanding at steals, blocks and team defense. Jordan is among the best basketball IQ in history and was as crafty as he was athletic. He was also among the best trash talkers in NBA history. He could get into the heads of his opposition as well as anyone. Absolutely the complete package.

[cecilthesheep]

Michael Jordan. The only reason he didn't win more defensive accolades is the amount of energy he poured into offense (and baseball).

I mean, that's all well and good, but it does mean he didn't win the accolades and didn't put as much effort into defense as some of these other guys. Don't get me wrong, I have him in my top 5, but the baseball stuff and using more energy on offense sometimes absolutely counts against him.

[Owly]

With 3 people citing Robertson as a serious contender at this point I'd reiterate concerns about his gambling tendencies.

In his five pro seasons, Robertson has accumulated a batch of defensive honors. In 1985-86 he was named Defensive Player of the Year and has been named to the NBA All-Defensive first team (1986-87) and second team (1985-86 and 1987-88). His rep is founded to a large extent, on the fact you can never relax when he's around; he's one of the most dangerous ball thiefs in the league, the NBA record holder for steals (301 in 1985-86) in a season, and second in the league last year (with 3.0 a game, to John Stockton's 3.2). On the other hand, the consensus is that he takes too many chances, often leaving the defense vulnerable when he gambles. On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

Defensive Grade: A (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's defensive resume is extensive. He made the All-Defensive first team and was defensive Player of the year in 1986 [note: this is an error, as noted in the previous edition - it was 87 in which he made the All-Defensive First Team], and last season -for the fourth time- was on the All-Defensive second team. he's a solid on-the-ball defender, but his claim to fame is that he's an ever present threat to steal the ball (he holds the NBA record for steals, 201, in a season and has averaged 2.8 a game for his career). In years past, and early on last season, he was criticized for gambling too much and leaving his team exposed. But as the season progressed, Robertson's thefts came within the proper conext of the Bucks' team defense.

Defensive Grade: AAA (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's D can be summed up in one phrase: He chases the ball ... One result: all those steals (he finished with 3.0 a game and led the league for the third time) ... Another: He leaves his man wide open, leaving the Bucks' defense exposed ... Fact is, Robertson does not play within Milwaukee's team defensive schemes and it hurts the team ... "His defense is instinctual and most of his instincts aren't very good," explained one critic ... If he puts his mind to it - a big if - he can be a decent one-on-one defender.

Defensive Grade: A+ (on AAA-D scale)

These are all prime boxscore years for Robertson and all-years in which he got defensive accolades, 2nd team All-Defense in '89 and '90, 1st team in '91. Only one, to me, seems elite, with two believing him to be good, but with significant flaws.

Then too, after he made the All-Defensive First Team

The backcourt defense should be better than it was last year with Robertson and Dawkins. Robertson has to stop playing only the passing lanes and going for the steals, and fit better into the team concept.

I'm open to the idea that it's wrong and that the gambling was justified and highly impactful, but my impression from sources at the time is Robertson gambled a bit too much, and that as a result was overrated by accolades going purely on his steals, and he was not generally or consistently an elite defender.

[Gibson22]

Sorry for leaving the candidates list so messy, I will fix it now, I had to go. Anyway, would you guys consider michael cooper and joe dumars this early? I'm not sure about my vote still

[kendogg]

Michael Jordan. The only reason he didn't win more defensive accolades is the amount of energy he poured into offense (and baseball).

I mean, that's all well and good, but it does mean he didn't win the accolades and didn't put as much effort into defense as some of these other guys. Don't get me wrong, I have him in my top 5, but the baseball stuff and using more energy on offense sometimes absolutely counts against him.

He did, he just didn't always guard the other team's best threat, once he joined up with Pippen and Rodman. Back in the 80's he absolutely did. He won DPOY in '88. Jordan didn't take possessions off he just conserved energy utilizing his teammates, which is completely understandable given his scoring responsibilities. When the game was on the line though, Jordan usually guarded them, especially if it was a guard.

[Gibson22]

With 3 people citing Robertson as a serious contender at this point I'd reiterate concerns about his gambling tendencies.

In his five pro seasons, Robertson has accumulated a batch of defensive honors. In 1985-86 he was named Defensive Player of the Year and has been named to the NBA All-Defensive first team (1986-87) and second team (1985-86 and 1987-88). His rep is founded to a large extent, on the fact you can never relax when he's around; he's one of the most dangerous ball thiefs in the league, the NBA record holder for steals (301 in 1985-86) in a season, and second in the league last year (with 3.0 a game, to John Stockton's 3.2). On the other hand, the consensus is that he takes too many chances, often leaving the defense vulnerable when he gambles. On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

Defensive Grade: A (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's defensive resume is extensive. He made the All-Defensive first team and was defensive Player of the year in 1986 [note: this is an error, as noted in the previous edition - it was 87 in which he made the All-Defensive First Team], and last season -for the fourth time- was on the All-Defensive second team. he's a solid on-the-ball defender, but his claim to fame is that he's an ever present threat to steal the ball (he holds the NBA record for steals, 201, in a season and has averaged 2.8 a game for his career). In years past, and early on last season, he was criticized for gambling too much and leaving his team exposed. But as the season progressed, Robertson's thefts came within the proper conext of the Bucks' team defense.

Defensive Grade: AAA (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's D can be summed up in one phrase: He chases the ball ... One result: all those steals (he finished with 3.0 a game and led the league for the third time) ... Another: He leaves his man wide open, leaving the Bucks' defense exposed ... Fact is, Robertson does not play within Milwaukee's team defensive schemes and it hurts the team ... "His defense is instinctual and most of his instincts aren't very good," explained one critic ... If he puts his mind to it - a big if - he can be a decent one-on-one defender.

Defensive Grade: A+ (on AAA-D scale)

These are all prime boxscore years for Robertson and all-years in which he got defensive accolades, 2nd team All-Defense in '89 and '90, 1st team in '91. Only one, to me, seems elite, with two believing him to be good, but with significant flaws.

Then too, after he made the All-Defensive First Team

The backcourt defense should be better than it was last year with Robertson and Dawkins. Robertson has to stop playing only the passing lanes and going for the steals, and fit better into the team concept.

I'm open to the idea that it's wrong and that the gambling was justified and highly impactful, but my impression from sources at the time is Robertson gambled a bit too much, and that as a result was overrated by accolades going purely on his steals, and he was not generally or consistently an elite defender.

I think that in general there is a tendency to exaggerate the negative effects of a gambling style of defense (and to underrated the positive effects), but in his case, I agree

[Samurai]

Michael Jordan. The only reason he didn't win more defensive accolades is the amount of energy he poured into offense (and baseball).

I mean, that's all well and good, but it does mean he didn't win the accolades and didn't put as much effort into defense as some of these other guys. Don't get me wrong, I have him in my top 5, but the baseball stuff and using more energy on offense sometimes absolutely counts against him.

I agree that Jordan had to expend a lot of energy on offense, but in a thread like this, that works against him as I am evaluating these candidates rather than helping him. Yes, it's a valid excuse and obviously makes him more valuable if you are picking a real team where you get the benefit of his offensive efforts, but it detracts from his actual defensive results. Moncrief had offensive responsibilities but I don't believe he expended as much energy on offense as MJ did. Tony Allen clearly is able to expend more energy on defense. So a thread that is just looking at defense only will value those who were able to focus more on defense in my opinion. Which I actually think is great because the great 2-way players get discussed a lot on this board but those who focused more on defense don't get much mention outside of this project. Since I am only looking at defense for this project, I don't think it is unrealistic that a great defensive player that could focus the majority of effort solely on defense would produce greater defensive results than a player who, out of necessity, had to occasionally "coast" on defense.

And I'm not convinced how much a player has to focus on both offense and defense necessarily hinders their ability to gather accolades. When Kobe's name comes up and his 12 All-defensive team awards, I believe at least some of those are based on his overall reputation rather than just solely the results he produced on defense.

[Ayt]

Michael Jordan. The only reason he didn't win more defensive accolades is the amount of energy he poured into offense (and baseball).

I mean, that's all well and good, but it does mean he didn't win the accolades and didn't put as much effort into defense as some of these other guys. Don't get me wrong, I have him in my top 5, but the baseball stuff and using more energy on offense sometimes absolutely counts against him.

He did, he just didn't always guard the other team's best threat, once he joined up with Pippen and Rodman. Back in the 80's he absolutely did. He won DPOY in '88. Jordan didn't take possessions off he just conserved energy utilizing his teammates, which is completely understandable given his scoring responsibilities. When the game was on the line though, Jordan usually guarded them, especially if it was a guard.

Jordan absolutely took plays off. He did it so often, one of the announcers for the Bulls, Wayne Larrivee, would even point out that Jordan was "conserving energy" when he made a lazy play on the defensive end of the court.

That isn't to say Jordan is not the best defensive player at the position in the history of the sport. If put into the role of defensive stopper with somewhat limited offensive responsibility, he would have blown everyone out of the water. He was like a 6-6 Westbrook when it comes to athleticism (to use a modern comparison), and he had outstanding instincts.

[Gibson22]

Michael Jordan is the number 1 Shooting Guard period.

I don't think there's a postion where you have a best defender period

[cecilthesheep]

With 3 people citing Robertson as a serious contender at this point I'd reiterate concerns about his gambling tendencies.

In his five pro seasons, Robertson has accumulated a batch of defensive honors. In 1985-86 he was named Defensive Player of the Year and has been named to the NBA All-Defensive first team (1986-87) and second team (1985-86 and 1987-88). His rep is founded to a large extent, on the fact you can never relax when he's around; he's one of the most dangerous ball thiefs in the league, the NBA record holder for steals (301 in 1985-86) in a season, and second in the league last year (with 3.0 a game, to John Stockton's 3.2). On the other hand, the consensus is that he takes too many chances, often leaving the defense vulnerable when he gambles. On the ball he wants to guard everybody except his own man. Then, too, he's foul-prone, leading all starting 2s, per minute, and many of those fouls come at the wrong time.

Defensive Grade: A (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's defensive resume is extensive. He made the All-Defensive first team and was defensive Player of the year in 1986 [note: this is an error, as noted in the previous edition - it was 87 in which he made the All-Defensive First Team], and last season -for the fourth time- was on the All-Defensive second team. he's a solid on-the-ball defender, but his claim to fame is that he's an ever present threat to steal the ball (he holds the NBA record for steals, 201, in a season and has averaged 2.8 a game for his career). In years past, and early on last season, he was criticized for gambling too much and leaving his team exposed. But as the season progressed, Robertson's thefts came within the proper conext of the Bucks' team defense.

Defensive Grade: AAA (on AAA-D scale)

Robertson's D can be summed up in one phrase: He chases the ball ... One result: all those steals (he finished with 3.0 a game and led the league for the third time) ... Another: He leaves his man wide open, leaving the Bucks' defense exposed ... Fact is, Robertson does not play within Milwaukee's team defensive schemes and it hurts the team ... "His defense is instinctual and most of his instincts aren't very good," explained one critic ... If he puts his mind to it - a big if - he can be a decent one-on-one defender.

Defensive Grade: A+ (on AAA-D scale)

These are all prime boxscore years for Robertson and all-years in which he got defensive accolades, 2nd team All-Defense in '89 and '90, 1st team in '91. Only one, to me, seems elite, with two believing him to be good, but with significant flaws.

Then too, after he made the All-Defensive First Team

The backcourt defense should be better than it was last year with Robertson and Dawkins. Robertson has to stop playing only the passing lanes and going for the steals, and fit better into the team concept.

I'm open to the idea that it's wrong and that the gambling was justified and highly impactful, but my impression from sources at the time is Robertson gambled a bit too much, and that as a result was overrated by accolades going purely on his steals, and he was not generally or consistently an elite defender.

First I'm going to make a counterargument, and then I'm going to explain why I still agree with you despite my thoughts to the contrary.

So the Scouting Report is one source, and it seems a tiny bit inconsistent year-to-year (did 1992 forget about 1991?), but it certainly is legitimate data showing something about how he was perceived at the time. And the Handbook backs it up. However, I think it's worth noting that even during the years that this seems to be trashing Robertson, he still gets at least an A grade. In general I think guards can get away with more gambling on defense. Is it always a good thing, no, but I think it worked for Robertson more often than not.

But despite all that, the thing is - we're talking about the best of all time here, so I do think we have to mark Robertson down a little for being just not quite as good as he could have been if he'd committed to schemes a little more. Robertson was an incredible ball hawk and a great man defender in his own right (I think he's slightly undersold by the Scouting Report), but Sidney Moncrief, to me, was a perfect defender. He didn't take unnecessary risks, he stayed glued to his man every single possession, he provided smart, on-time help defense. If I had to pick one of them to get a stop, Moncrief would unquestionably be the guy.

[penbeast0]

The idea that Sidney Moncrief didn't need to expend much energy on the offensive end is silly. In his 5 year prime, he was the Bucks leading scorer 4 out of the 5 years (2nd once). And his slashing style of play is far more tiring than a catch and shoot style. Did he expend as much offensive energy as Jordan? No. But did he expend a lot? Yes.

The knocks against Sid are (a) his prime is short, it was only 5 years as a superstar with maybe 1-2 more years before that as a defensive stud straight out of Arkansas. And, (b) he wasn't a guy who would create offense with his defense. He was a man defender, not an Alvin Robertson type, and his steal totals aren't going to blow anyone away. Steals are valuable and transition buckets are high efficiency so this, to me, is a knock against him.

I still think he's the top dog here despite this, just wanted to clarify the issues as I see them.

[_Game7_]

Im voting Jordan for the #1 spot. Very interested to read some good post, after submitting my paper.

[LA Bird]

Defensive accolades are almost always overrated and it seems to be the case even on this board. I feel like Moncrief has gone from underrated to overrated and wouldn't be in contention here if it wasn't for the 2 DPOYs. Tony Allen is rightfully penalized for his limited minutes yet Moncrief's longevity is getting a pass even though he didn't play for much longer.

Total minutes
36k Bulls Jordan
22k Bucks Moncrief
18k Tony Allen

Not all of those minutes were when they were playing elite defense but an argument for Moncrief at #1 would need to show he was like 50% more impactful on a per possession basis than Jordan over the course of their prime. A defensive specialist like Tony Allen actually has a case since he was ridiculously dominant in his limited minutes (+4.3 DRAPM in JE's 15 year RAPM) but Moncrief wasn't a defense only player like Allen who could commit all his energy to defense. For all the talk of Jordan not putting 100% effort on defense because of his offense, was Moncrief not doing the same? I don't know what makes people think Moncrief was capable of All NBA calibre offense while playing with Tony Allen's defensive intensity for up to 39 minutes a game.

Allen has the best per possession defensive peak but even as a regular Tony Allen supporter on here, I would have to say Jordan is the GOAT SG defender for career because he could stay on the court for much longer. Not sure how Moncrief factors into this conversation when he doesn't have the longevity of Jordan and wasn't playing at the intensity of Allen due to his offensive load. The lack of any mentions of Paul Pressey when crediting Moncrief for Milwaukee's defensive success is also concerning.

Vote: Michael Jordan

[HeartBreakKid]

I vote for Sidney Moncrief. People up the thread have outlined why really well, to the point where I don't feel like I'd be adding anything by repeating stuff. I will say, the way he played perfect shutdown man defense without taking any cheap gambles is specifically what puts him head and shoulders above everyone else.

Tony Allen is recency bias imo. Moncrief was just better, as was Cooper, and probably Robertson and Jordan too. Look up some film of Moncrief if you don't know much about him.

Comparing Robertson to Allen makes my soul hurt, not even exaggerating when saying Robertson was probably 2 or 3 tiers down from Tony Allen.

Tony Allen was a lockdown defender in an era where you can't even breath on the offensive player. If he played in an era where there was hand checking and players who have poor offensive games could play more minutes, then he would have been a legitimate force. From what we do know, when he was on the court he was arguably the best defender in the league some years as a 6'4 guard, he has had some ridiculous impact stats and his MPG is high enough to see that it isn't just small sample size/noise. He is largely the personification of Memphis' defense.

He has a perfect combination of height, strength and athleticism for a defensive guard, like I said before, the biggest hurdle to Tony Allen's defense is that his offense is so bad he can't stay on the floor, but that isn't really what we're assessing here.

My vote goes to Tony Allen.

[pandrade83]

I'll take Sid Moncrief. This isn't a career value project for me the way the RGM Top 100 was - while he wasn't great for long, when he was great, he was really great.

[ElectricMayhem]

Michael Jordan. He could lock anybody up. He's the only guy in the top 5 in steals whose not a point guard. He's surrounded by PFs and Cs in the all-time block list. His athleticism plus competitiveness put him at a level that hasn't been reached at sustained levels by anyone else in my opinion.

[Gibson22]

Okay, finally I have time to elaborate my opinion. I'm not sure about my vote.

First of all I think that Don Chaney, Bill Sharman and Jerry Sloan should get consideration for this top ten. Unfortunately I don't know about them, but based from what they say about th I think they should get consideration.

Another thing that I noticed, is that in my opinion, when I think about it, the quality of defense of the SFs is way higher than the defense of PGs and SGs. In fact, a lot of the guys in this list that can permor that type of defense, are close to being SFs.

To continue with my toughts: I do think that I find it difficult to rate the good defenders of the period pre 1985-1990 or something like that at the same level of the ones that came from that period on. In fact, when yesterday I gave a tought, for the FIRST SPOT, I wanna look at a guy who has it all.

I don't think it is easy to find players at the 1 and 2 position who are extremely good defenders in every aspect. For the Point Guards my guy was Nate Mcmillan. Just because: I don't know pre 80s guys enough, I found walt frazier's defense overrated and disappointing, I consider him a better defender than his teammate gary, I think that stockton, cp3, kidd, those type of guys, with their own differences, are a level below him. His size, his steals, his on man defense etc.. Basically I think he was the closest to those on ball pests a là blaylock or gary WHILE being basically above average size even for a Shooting Guard, and therefore having the qualities of intimidation, shot contesting etc. of a guy of that size

When I look at a guy to vote for the #1 spot, I don't wanna have someone that has to struggle to defend well. I want someone for whom (I don't think "for whom" is right ) defending well comes naturally. And I don't want somebody who can guard max 6'4" tall players.

I tried to scan trought the list and, just some toughts:

- If Andre Roberson fully recovers from his injury and has a decently long career, he may be considered the best or certainly a contender for the #1 spot, that's how good I think he is. I think him and kawhi are by far the best non bigs defenders in the league. He has the perfect build for a defender: tall, long arms, very quick, light enough to have that quickness but big enough to not be backed down or manhandled (well, almost by nobody) etc.. I think that if we didn't consider longevity, I'd take him in consideration even for the first spots

- There's no doubt (Well, that's exaggerating, in fact, If somebody thinks otherwise, I would be more than open to hear their opinion) in my mind, that Michael Jordan has the best defensive powers, the best tools to defend well, of any shooting guard ever. Basically, I think than one of the reasons that lead to MJ being over mythicized, is the fact that he was a player from the future, in... every aspect. In this list, there's not one player who is not either way smaller than him, way worse at on ball defense, way less athletic (well, that's obvious) etc.

- As I was saying, I want a defender who is extremely good in every aspect. In this list, the height range basically goes from 6'3" to 6'5.5", with a couple of exceptions like stacey augmon, butler.. the are just a few guys taller than that MJ, Kobe height (both listed at 6'6" but really 6'5"), and they are stacey, butler, probably majerle was a little taller, andre roberson, butler. I don't want somebody who can only guard small guards, I mean, a player like avery bradley isn't worse than anybody as far as on man defense etc, but his size limites him a lot, I don't want not very athletic players on my list, and most importantly I don't want somebody who has to always try to find ways to disturb his attacker to be effective, I want somebody big but still quick enough to be effective without always having to disturb the dribble, poke the ball etc. (I re-read it and it seems like disturbing the dribble etc is a negative, I hope it is clear what I was trying to say)

Considering the guys I think that are real candidates, I would slim down the list to 7 players + 2 (that I know nobody would consider as of now, I hope he will get consideration later) excluding pre 80s player.
-One is Michael Cooper (6'4.5")
- Moncrief (6'3")
- Jordan (6'5")
- Dumars (6'3")
- Alvin (6'3")
- Doug Christie (6'5.5")
- Tony Allen (6'3.5")

Then there are two guys who to me are candidates but I don't wanna start voting the same guy forever, and they are Mitch Richmond and.. Jimmy Butler.
Thabo sefolosha and fat lever are two of the best guys that don't make the cut.

I will continue with my toughts and finish my post later

[Gibson22]

Tony Allen is sort of in the same boat as Nate McMillan for me. Great impact stats and while they were out on the floor they might be the best at their position, but I just can't put them ahead of other defensive greats that were playing 10+ minutes more per game for longer periods of time.

So it comes down to Robertson, Moncrief and Jordan for me. Going Michael Jordan for 2 reasons -- he has the DPOY like Sid and the advanced metrics like Alvin, but he has the size advantage at 6'6 to their listed 6'3; and he also was putting up those godly offensive stats. I know this is just about defense, but at the same time that can't completely be ignored.

Well it's true about the minutes (tony allen was always a 20-25 minutes guy, 22.0 average, but he was a dpoy level defender until 2016-2017, and I don't know how many guards have that type of longevity in terms of number of seasons, it's not like moncrief and robertson have played much more minutes than him, and the difference is that they declined on D at the last part of their career. Actually a lot of the players in the list, excluding great players like mj, wade, ginobili, dumars, are about in the range of minutes of tony allen

[KnickFan33]

MJ

[trex_8063]

The Good, the Bad, and the In-Between on Sidney Moncrief (and why I'm not willing to give him my vote for #1)......

Let's first look at "The Good" about Sid (the arguments he has firmly in his favor):

*2-time DPOY, 5-time All-Defensive (4x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team)

**From '82-'86, Milwaukee ranged from -3.3 to -4.6 rDRTG each year, never worse than 6th (of 23 teams), and either 1st or 2nd in four of those five seasons.

***His reputation is as a great man defender (a "lock down" defender, if you will). He's got substantial reach (long arms for a guy of 6'4"), and is really a pretty fantastic athlete, and he's keyed in pretty much every possession. On the eye-test he does look pretty good as a man defender (I---just yesterday----watched G3 of the '83 ECF, to refresh my memory on Moncrief's D), though I cannot say he looks definitively better than other "stopper" type defenders (such as Tony Allen).

****He's got an outstanding (fairly top-tier) regressed WOWY (WOWYR) score for his prime according to Elgee, high enough that one must assume some of that is result of his defense. More on WOWY below.



"The Bad" (or maybe not outright "bad", but certainly not supportive of the general impression about Moncrief's defense):
*His prime (and career) were kinda short; we're looking at just over 23k rs minutes for his whole career. That's a little lacking compared to some of the candidates.

**I looked at a few H2H match-ups to see if this notion of Moncrief as a "lock-down" or "stopper" type man defender is reflected in the match-up data. I haven't looked at dozens or anything, but I've got a handful compiled (and I'll restrict it to only Moncrief's prime years ('82-'86)).....

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

I can't say that Moncrief was always the one guarding these guys, though it's safe to say that he at least "often" was (and he was charged with guarding Andrew Toney in the '83 ECF I was just watching, fwiw). Anyway, what I see is that Michael Jordan and David Thompson both basically hold steady in production and efficiency, Andrew Toney and Dennis Johnson actually have mildly BETTER numbers when facing Moncrief, and only Walter Davis gets a small but noticeable degree WORSE when facing Moncrief.

So from the match-ups I've looked at so far, H2H studies are definitely NOT supportive of Moncrief.



"The In-Between" (this is stuff that is only marginally supportive of him as a really substantial impact defender):

*I was thinking about which of the Defensive Four Factors a guard can leave the most imprint on. If he's a famed ball-hawk, then obviously opponent TOV% is the one he's going to to leave the most imprint on. But if he's not a great thief (Sid has fair/decent steal numbers, but nothing special), I'm not sure which one he'd leave the most imprint on....maybe evenly spread across opponent eFG%, TOV%, and FTAr??? It's probably safe to assume that the team's DRB% is the defensive FF that a guard leaves the LEAST imprint upon (unless you're Jason Kidd or Russell Westbrook, etc).
For whatever it's worth, from '82-'86 when the Bucks had the pretty consistently elite team defense, it was opponent eFG% that they consistently excelled at (never coming worse than 4th in the league, and 1st in three of the five years). Their next-best FF overall was opponent TOV% (league rank [of 23] of 6th, 13th, 12th, 3rd, 3rd, respectively in those five seasons); not surprising that they hit the elite level in this FF when they started giving Paul Pressey starter-minutes.
The two FF's that they were consistently NEVER elite at [and sometimes not even "good" at] were DRB% and opponent FTAr. I'm not sure how this reflects upon Moncrief, if we're labeling him the "anchor" of those Milwaukee defenses (that's why I put it here in the "in-between" category).

**Let's look at the defensive drop for the Bucks in '87: with Moncrief missing half the season (and playing at an impaired/post-injury level in most of the games he does play-->so maybe effectively like he missed most of the year), they also had Pressey missing 22 games, Jack Sikma has largely replaced Alton Lister at C, and a few other minor roster changes.......their rDRTG falls from -4.5 in '86 to -2.7 in '87. I can't decide if that's as big a drop as we should be expecting, based on Moncrief's reputation.

***While Elgee's WOWYR rates Moncrief fantastically (at least during his prime), and while I do use Elgee's WOWYR for a lot of older players ("any port in a storm", when there's such limited data for some of these guys I don't like to turn any info away), I have questioned his methodology at times. Moncrief is one of those players where---from my own WOWY investigations----I don't see the same picture (of super-elite impact) painted......

‘80: 46-31 (.597) with, 3-2 (.600) without
‘81: 60-20 (.750) with, 0-2 without
‘82: 54-26 (.675) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘83: 48-28 (.632) with, 3-3 (.500) without
‘84: 48-31 (.608) with, 2-1 (.667) without
‘85: 54-19 (.740) with, 5-4 (.556) without
‘86: 50-23 (.685) with, 7-2 (.778) without
‘87: 25-14 (.641) with, 25-18 (.581) without
‘88: 27-29 (.482) with, 15-11 (.577) without
‘89: 35-27 (.565) with, 14-6 (.700) without
‘91: 39-33 (.542) with, 4-6 (.400) without

TOTAL: 486-281 (.634) with, 79-56 (.585) without; avg +4.0 wins added per season
‘82-’86: 254-127 (.667) with, 18-11 (.621) without; avg +3.8 wins added per season

‘84: 106.3 ORtg, 103.3 DRtg, +3.85 SRS without. 107.9 ORtg (+1.6), 103.6 DRtg (+0.3), +4.05 (+0.20) SRS with.
‘85: 107.0 ORtg, 104.4 DRtg, +0.49 SRS without. 110.9 ORtg (+3.9), 103.5 DRtg (-0.9), +7.45 SRS (+6.96) with.
‘86: 113.8 ORtg, 103.8 DRtg, +8.91 SRS without. 111.1 ORtg (-2.7), 102.6 DRtg (-1.2), +8.66 SRS (-0.25) with.

Avg of having Moncrief ‘84-’86, NOT weighted for games missed or played
+0.9 ORtg
-0.6 DRtg
+2.30 SRS
Avg of having Moncrief ‘84-’86, weighted for games missed
+0.7 ORtg
-0.9 DRtg
+2.90 SRS
Avg of having Moncrief ‘84-’86, weighted for games played
+1.0 ORtg
-0.6 DRtg
+2.25 SRS

^^^^So one can see in these three prime seasons, the shift on the team DRtg is pretty small. That's on 21 missed games; so not a huge sample, but not minimal either.



Is this conclusive of anything? No, obviously not. But personally, it's enough to make me hedge away from giving him my vote here.