#9 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[trex_8063]

Would you guys say danny green is a better defender than Jimmy Butler?

Yes. Butler's effort definitely waxes and wanes sometimes from what I've seen. And I don't think he's necessarily that much better even when he's locked in. It's close - I think Butler is an entirely defensible choice - but Green maintains a comparable level of defense with a higher consistency in my opinion.

Well, one thing I'll say in Butler's defense to these comments (even though I've cast in with Green): Danny Green has never had to play the kind of minutes Jimmy Butler's been playing (to say nothing of the vast disparity between their respective offensive responsibilities). Butler avg 37.6 mpg collectively over the last five seasons......Green [prior to the current season in progress] has never had a season even averaging as many as 29 mpg. If he was suddenly put in a situation where he had to play 37-38 mpg (even with the same relatively low offensive responsibility), would he begin having some possessions where his effort wanes? I mean, fatigue is a very real thing. And I can totally see the perspective that says a guy who plays defense at level 9 (on a scale of 1-10) for 38 mpg is more defensively valuable than the guy who plays at level 10 for 28 mpg.

[cecilthesheep]

Would you guys say danny green is a better defender than Jimmy Butler?

Yes. Butler's effort definitely waxes and wanes sometimes from what I've seen. And I don't think he's necessarily that much better even when he's locked in. It's close - I think Butler is an entirely defensible choice - but Green maintains a comparable level of defense with a higher consistency in my opinion.

Well, one thing I'll say in Butler's defense to these comments (even though I've cast in with Green): Danny Green has never had to play the kind of minutes Jimmy Butler's been playing (to say nothing of the vast disparity between their respective offensive responsibilities). Butler avg 37.6 mpg collectively over the last five seasons......Green [prior to the current season in progress] has never had a season even averaging as many as 29 mpg. If he was suddenly put in a situation where he had to play 37-38 mpg (even with the same relatively low offensive responsibility), would he begin having some possessions where his effort wanes? I mean, fatigue is a very real thing. And I can totally see the perspective that says a guy who plays defense at level 9 (on a scale of 1-10) for 38 mpg is more defensively valuable than the guy who plays at level 10 for 28 mpg.

Yeah that all makes sense. I think it's more the offensive responsibilities than the minutes. This is a hypothetical, just like the hypothetical of what Butler could do with lower minutes, but I think Green could maintain pretty much the same level of defensive effort for 35-40 minutes if he had to. At the least, I think he could stay at a higher consistency level than Butler. Beyond responsibility levels, their play styles make an impact, too; Butler relies heavily on tough, strong drives, while Green is a spot-up shooter, and that would hold true even if minutes were equalized.

The thing is, even if it is an understandable result of high minutes or saving energy for offense, inconsistent effort is still inconsistent effort. What Butler potentially could do with lower minutes, less responsibilities, or infinite energy is unimportant to me compared to what he actually does. I don't mean to imply Butler isn't still a great defender on the whole, but I think some of his All-Defensive selections have to do with the fact that he's an All-Star who started out as a defensive specialist. So although I think Butler, Green, Chaney, and Christie are all super close together here, the consistency thing is enough to give Green the small edge over Butler in my judgement.

Kobe throughout nearly his whole career maintained the ability to produce incredible bursts of defensive dominance on any given possession, but he almost never actually did, and consequently hasn't been in this conversation at all. Butler is a far, far less extreme case, but the same reasoning applies.

[PigsOnTheWing]

I've added Thabo to the data. Here is a quick update for the players still available (who are in bold). Fwiw, I've also corrected one or two mistakes I made in the calculations.

OVERALL CAREER DEFENSIVE VALUE:
#1 Jordan 2009.6
#2 Robertson 1546.6
#3 Jones 1520.1
#4 Wade 1297.1
#5 Christie 1180.8
#6 Sefolosha 1092.6
#7 Allen 1000.3
#8 Bryant 993.6
#9 Moncrief 897.7
#10 Cooper 874.2
#11 Green 870.3
#12 Augmon 799.2
#13 Butler 752.8
#14 Roberson 498.8
#15 Dumars 415.8

5 YEARS PRIME:
#1 Jordan 990.3
#2 Robertson 972.2
#3 Christie 817.2
#4 Jones 749.6
#5 Wade 704.1
#6 Green 677.6
#7 Butler 665.4
#8 Sefolosha 639.3
#9 Moncrief 628.2
#10 Bryant 558.8
#11 Cooper 523.5
#12 Roberson 498.8
#13 Allen 467.0
#14 Augmon 459.2
#15 Dumars 352.4

PEAK:
#1 Robertson 254.5 (1986)
#2 Jordan 240.7 (1988)
#3 Christie 216.4 (2003)
#4 Roberson 191.2 (2017)
#5 Jones 177.4 (2002)
#6 Green 173.4 (2016)
#7 Butler 173.0 (2014)
#8 Wade 166.0 (2009)
#9 Moncrief 158.0 (1982)
#10 Sefolosha 148.5 (2010)
#11 Cooper 144.4 (1981)
#12 Augmon 142.1 (1994)
#13 Bryant 134.2 (2000)
#14 Allen 118.4 (2009)
#15 Dumars 85.0 (1988)

I'm gonna vote for Wade, though between him, Green and Christie I feel it's basically a tie. Apart from having the highest career value in my calculation (though not in the RAPM one done by trex_8063, which may suggest that the boxscore represent him better than he really was, or maybe that Green and also Sefolosha are in that group of players that do all the little things that don't show up in the boxscore but affect the score a lot, which is entirely possible).

I just feel a bit more safe to vote Wade because of his ability as an additional "rim protector", who consistently posted block rates among the best ever for a guard. The majority of those blocks and a lot of his value as a defender came from help defense, a fundamental in which he particularly excelled. Nevertheless, in his prime, he was also a good man-to-man defender, using his quickness and explosiveness to prevent drives. Despite being slightly undersized for a SG, he was also decent at altering opponents' shots. He beats Christie and Green by a nose and right now I really don't know who I will support between them for the last spot.

[Gibson22]

I'm voting for Butler

[Gibson22]

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[Gibson22]

Danny Green 4 (cecilthesheep, trex, drpositivity, penbeast)
Jimmy Butler 2 (bledredwine, lebron)
Wade 2 (nomorerings, bounce)
Don Chaney 1 (samurai)
Thabosefolosha (iggymcfrack).

2 Hours to go, VOTE!

[cecilthesheep]

I just feel a bit more safe to vote Wade because of his ability as an additional "rim protector", who consistently posted block rates among the best ever for a guard.

I thought about this as well, but the thing is Green's block rates are significantly better than Wade's, even when limiting Wade's sample to the first 10 years of his career. Wade has a 2.0 career BLK% and 2.2 from ages 22 to 31 (first 10 years), while Green's is 2.6 (both samples are the same for him, as he's 31 years old and 10 years into his career right now). Green also has a higher peak season at 3.7 compared to 3.0 for Wade.

I know there are other reasons to vote for Wade and that's not your whole case for him, but if shot-blocking ability is the tiebreaker, I think it clearly favors Green. Even though Wade's more known for it.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think Thabo beats most of the other guys getting votes in terms of consistency - except for perhaps Danny Green. Thabo is a legit lock down defender, can even give stars some serious problems - not sure if Danny ever had that type of impact. Danny is more fundamentally sound, but Thabo is certainly not just a man to man guy.

My vote goes to Thabo Sefolosha

[mdonnelly1989]

Not sure how Jason Kidd got #1 of PG's.

I always felt like Walt Frazier and Gary Payton where on the level of MJ, Moncrief & Tony Allen and Kidd just a half a tier under those guys.

[Gibson22]

Ok danny green won

[cecilthesheep]

Not sure how Jason Kidd got #1 of PG's.

I always felt like Walt Frazier and Gary Payton where on the level of MJ, Moncrief & Tony Allen and Kidd just a half a tier under those guys.

I'm with you on that. From what I remember, rebounding and longevity were big factors in why a lot of people voted for Kidd. It's just different ways of judging who to vote for, because Kidd did maintain a high level of defense for way, way longer than most other candidates.

[mdonnelly1989]

Not sure how Jason Kidd got #1 of PG's.

I always felt like Walt Frazier and Gary Payton where on the level of MJ, Moncrief & Tony Allen and Kidd just a half a tier under those guys.

I'm with you on that. From what I remember, rebounding and longevity were big factors in why a lot of people voted for Kidd. It's just different ways of judging who to vote for, because Kidd did maintain a high level of defense for way, way longer than most other candidates.

Maybe then I'm thinking about Peak/Prime

[yellowknifer]

I'm voting Thabo. Green comes next. It's actually unbelievable how many all defensive teams Kobe has made. He was solid but never as great as his rep. Did too much on ball to consistently give the effort. Dude wasted a lot of energy on offense. Michael rarely wasted energy on anything. Pure efficiency in his dribble to his subtle movements.

[trex_8063]

I'm voting Thabo. Green comes next. It's actually unbelievable how many all defensive teams Kobe has made. He was solid but never as great as his rep. Did too much on ball to consistently give the effort. Dude wasted a lot of energy on offense. Michael rarely wasted energy on anything. Pure efficiency in his dribble to his subtle movements.

This thread is done with. Check into the #10 thread if wanting to participate