#7 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Johnny Firpo]

Bowen (again).

[cecilthesheep]

Bowen

The voting for this position has been bizarrely fractured

[trex_8063]

Bowen

The voting for this position has been bizarrely fractured

Your original vote will count, doesn't need to be restated

[cecilthesheep]

Bowen

The voting for this position has been bizarrely fractured

Your original vote will count, doesn't need to be restated

Oh okay, that makes sense. My bad.

[Gibson22]

Bruce Bowen is the winner

[KyletheDingbat]

I may not have the right idea of how this list is supposed to work, but how is Kawhi not top 3? He's probably top 3 perimeter defender of all time, including guards. The only SF I'd consider taking above him game by game is Pippen, but even that I'd have to think about.

[trex_8063]

I may not have the right idea of how this list is supposed to work, but how is Kawhi not top 3? He's probably top 3 perimeter defender of all time, including guards. The only SF I'd consider taking above him game by game is Pippen, but even that I'd have to think about.

At his peak (or even his peak three years), the bolded section may be accurate (or at least not far off the mark): In that period, he may be one of the most impactful perimeter defenders all-time while on the court.

The two bolded portions in that^^^ sentence are what warrant consideration:

*re: "in that period"---->the most reliable indicators of defensive impact give him three seasons of truly elite-level (all-time level, for a perimeter player) defense: '14-'16. But that's only three seasons. In '17, when his usage made the jump up into superstar offensive anchor range, his defensive impact fell off from elite level (despite still getting All-D 1st team). Even if we say he was better than any other candidate in those three years, it's fair to say he wasn't better by a huge margin over some; and if a few of the characters in that "some" had a larger number of years as big impact defenders.......well, you probably see where this is going. The author of this project did dictate that this is to be about career defensive value, imprint, or quality, NOT just peak. This has led many to factor longevity (and durability; see below) into our thinking.

**re: "while on the court"---->yes, Kawhi has a few years of MASSIVE on-court defensive impact. But he's not on the court as often as some of the other candidates considered, is he? Consider that he's NEVER averaged as much as 34 mpg, and averaged just 31.7 mpg collectively in his three best defensive seasons. He also missed 10-18 games in EACH of those seasons.
Suppose there was another SF who is only a little below Kawhi's best years in on-court defensive impact (let's say ranks a 9, if peak defensive Kawhi is a 10), but did so while averaging 36-38 mpg and playing ~80+ games each year. I don't think it should be hard to imagine why some might consider that guy on the same defensive tier as Kawhi [or perhaps even marginally ahead] in those respective peak years. And there again there's the consideration that Kawhi just doesn't have as many years to speak of as many.


Not saying YOU have to consider things this way, but many are. Therein lies the pretty straight-forward explanation why he didn't get in the top 3 (or even top 7). I've no doubt he'll get in somewhere in the top 10, which is no small accomplishment considering he's only got seven seasons to his credit (really only six), some of which were modestly injury-hit.


fwiw, see Bounce_9's post itt, and post #6 in the next thread (the #8 SF thread) for some more objective means/measures of viewing things. They indicate Kawhi is anything but a shoe-in for one of the top spots.

[KyletheDingbat]

I may not have the right idea of how this list is supposed to work, but how is Kawhi not top 3? He's probably top 3 perimeter defender of all time, including guards. The only SF I'd consider taking above him game by game is Pippen, but even that I'd have to think about.

At his peak (or even his peak three years), the bolded section may be accurate (or at least not far off the mark): In that period, he may be one of the most impactful perimeter defenders all-time while on the court.

The two bolded portions in that^^^ sentence are what warrant consideration:

*re: "in that period"---->the most reliable indicators of defensive impact give him three seasons of truly elite-level (all-time level, for a perimeter player) defense: '14-'16. But that's only three seasons. In '17, when his usage made the jump up into superstar offensive anchor range, his defensive impact fell off from elite level (despite still getting All-D 1st team). Even if we say he was better than any other candidate in those three years, it's fair to say he wasn't better by a huge margin over some; and if a few of the characters in that "some" had a larger number of years as big impact defenders.......well, you probably see where this is going. The author of this project did dictate that this is to be about career defensive value, imprint, or quality, NOT just peak. This has led many to factor longevity (and durability; see below) into our thinking.

**re: "while on the court"---->yes, Kawhi has a few years of MASSIVE on-court defensive impact. But he's not on the court as often as some of the other candidates considered, is he? Consider that he's NEVER averaged as much as 34 mpg, and averaged just 31.7 mpg collectively in his three best defensive seasons. He also missed 10-18 games in EACH of those seasons.
Suppose there was another SF who is only a little below Kawhi's best years in on-court defensive impact (let's say ranks a 9, if peak defensive Kawhi is a 10), but did so while averaging 36-38 mpg and playing ~80+ games each year. I don't think it should be hard to imagine why some might consider that guy on the same defensive tier as Kawhi [or perhaps even marginally ahead] in those respective peak years. And there again there's the consideration that Kawhi just doesn't have as many years to speak of as many.


Not saying YOU have to consider things this way, but many are. Therein lies the pretty straight-forward explanation why he didn't get in the top 3 (or even top 7). I've no doubt he'll get in somewhere in the top 10, which is no small accomplishment considering he's only got seven seasons to his credit (really only six), some of which were modestly injury-hit.


fwiw, see Bounce_9's post itt, and post #6 in the next thread (the #8 SF thread) for some more objective means/measures of viewing things. They indicate Kawhi is anything but a shoe-in for one of the top spots.

Okay I gotcha, thank you for the reply. I think I view things differently than the spirit of this thread does. If I'm ranking the top 10 defenders by position, I'm choosing the 10 I think played the best defense, unless it's an extreme longevity case where a guy only defended for a season or something. But if we're measuring a career value of defense, I can see why that's a different story. I think that's not as much fun for me lol.