#1 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[SkyHookFTW]

Bobby Jones. The most technically perfect defender of them all.

[cecilthesheep]

Bobby Jones. The most technically perfect defender of them all.

Great mention; I'm not voting for him first or second, but he deserves more consideration for those spots than he's getting imo. I might very well put him above Rodman.

[trex_8063]

Wait, so no love for Draymond or what? Is he a center to most people now?? He's the second smartest defender of all time after Russell imo. I personally have him over KG and Duncan. We might actually be watching the best defender ever. He's smarter than guys like Lebron, KG, Duncan, or Hakeem on defense. Smarts and timing on help D matter more in terms of impact than any other aspect of a player, and Draymond's the best we've seen imo.

My vote goes to Draymond, and the 1a/1b being KG and Timmy in some order really shouldn't be so set in stone. He's a legitimate challenger to the two of them.

We take into account longevity so it's very hard to make a case against KG and Duncan with that disadvantage. And I would take KG over Draymond for peak defense anyways, he's basically a 7 foot version

Same. Defensively, KG was like Draymond before Draymond, fully capable of guarding all 5 positions (I'd argue even more so than Draymond) and every bit as smart, but with better physical tools.

Yeah, I find myself having a hard time making a sound case for Draymond > KG/TD for defensive peak (before we even get into the [massive] longevity edge).

I mean, a person can say "I think Dray is better", but people can say anything; doesn't make it so. Not that my saying TD/KG > Dray for defensive peak makes it so either......but it's an easier stance to substantiate with objective measures and evidence. Just by way of validating that statement.....

Peak Season rDRTG
Tim Duncan: -14.4
Kevin Garnett: -13.65
Draymond Green: -9.67

Avg of Best 3 Seasons rDRTG
Tim Duncan: -13.2
Kevin Garnett: -12.0
Draymond Green: -9.0

Peak Season DBPM
Tim Duncan: +5.07
Kevin Garnett: +5.02
Draymond Green: +4.96

Avg of Best 3 Seasons DBPM
Tim Duncan: +4.96
Kevin Garnett: +4.74
Draymond Green: +4.46

Peak Season DWS
Kevin Garnett: 8.0
Tim Duncan: 7.2
Draymond Green: 5.4

Avg of Best 3 Seasons DWS
Tim Duncan: 7.17
Kevin Garnett: 6.73
Draymond Green: 5.23

Peak Season DRAPM
Kevin Garnett: +5.6
Draymond Green: +4.60
Tim Duncan: +4.4

Avg of Best 3 Seasons DRAPM
Kevin Garnett: +5.37
Draymond Green: +4.20
Tim Duncan: +4.17

^^^Worth noting two things regarding these above metrics:
1) These are all rate metrics. Duncan and Garnett achieved these numbers while playing larger mpg than Green, too.
2) If we look at best 5 or 6 seasons, the avgs of KG and TD hold up pretty well, but Draymond's begin to fall off fairly fast (because he's really only got three true top-tier defensive seasons).

I'd also note the team defenses anchored. When Draymond had one good perimeter defender (Klay) and one excellent perimeter defender (Iggy), plus an excellent [albeit in limited minutes] defensive center (Bogut), the single-best team defense he anchored with this cast was a -4.2 rDRTG ('15).
With Klay and [a slightly older] Iggy, a defensively-improved Kevin Durant, and capable defensive center off the bench (JaVale), he anchored the single-best team defense of his career (-4.8 rDRTG in '17).
The next-best team defense seen on a Draymond team was a -4.1 rDRTG in '14 (Draymond was only playing 21.9 mpg off the bench).

By comparison, only six Spurs teams (out of 19) were worse defensively than that -4.1 rDRTG during TD's career. The best defenses anchored by Tim Duncan were -8.8, -7.4, -7.3, -7.2, -6.6 (twice), -5.7. Only ONE of those were with DRob by his side, and only one other was with Kawhi by his side; and neither of those years is the -8.8 season ('04).

The best defenses anchored by Kevin Garnett were -8.6 ('08), -7.0 ('11), -6.4 ('12), -6.0 ('09). Worth noting that in '09 that was with KG missing 25 games too. They were a -8.1 rDRTG in the 57 games he played in, were +1.2 rDRTG in the 25 he missed.


Point being that there really isn't any metric (not one) I've found that definitively points to Green as the highest defensive peak of the three; and the balance of evidence [all things considered] suggest his defensive peak is third of the three.
And this is before we even delve into the enormous longevity edge that others have already alluded to.

[penbeast0]

Bobby Jones. The most technically perfect defender of them all.

Great mention; I'm not voting for him first or second, but he deserves more consideration for those spots than he's getting imo. I might very well put him above Rodman.

I'd certainly have him above Rodman if you don't count defensive rebounding as defense. If you do, Rodman takes a massive jump in utility.

[HeartBreakKid]

Bobby Jones. The most technically perfect defender of them all.

Great mention; I'm not voting for him first or second, but he deserves more consideration for those spots than he's getting imo. I might very well put him above Rodman.

I'd certainly have him above Rodman if you don't count defensive rebounding as defense. If you do, Rodman takes a massive jump in utility.

I'll never understand the argument on how defensive rebounding is not defense...it's an action that prevents the opposing team from scoring almost by its very definition.

[kendogg]

Defensive rebounding is absolutely part of someone's defensive ability. Though it's only part of why Rodman is a top 10 lock, its a sizeable part.

If it wasn't clear from my previous post, and assuming we aren't moving Duncan to C, then I vote Tim Duncan.

[HeartBreakKid]

Some of the past criticisms against KG don't even make that much sense. I've heard that he's not a rim protector, but a power forward that averages almost 2 blocks per game is certainly a rim protector.

He is arguably the GOAT pick and roll defender, and the pick and roll rules basketball - at least in the modern era. There isn't any more important defensive skill than being able to guard the PNR, him doing it while being 7 foot tall is a nice feather.

KG beats Duncan on glass, on the perimeter, probably in transition - and he is presumably more vocal on defense (I could be wrong on this, but that's the perception). Duncan is a better rim protector and a better post defender (not very important in my opinion)

KG anchored arguably the goat defense, albeit he has anchored a lot of meh ones. DRAPM year in and year out consistently put him at the top and that can't be a coincidence or some stat conspiracy.

My vote goes to Kevin Garnett

[cecilthesheep]

Great mention; I'm not voting for him first or second, but he deserves more consideration for those spots than he's getting imo. I might very well put him above Rodman.

I'd certainly have him above Rodman if you don't count defensive rebounding as defense. If you do, Rodman takes a massive jump in utility.

I'll never understand the argument on how defensive rebounding is not defense...it's an action that prevents the opposing team from scoring almost by its very definition.

I mean, it can be, but it's not always that. Most of the time I agree with you and I count defensive rebounding as defense, but I don't know that I count a lot of Rodman's defensive rebounding as defense, considering how much time he spent chasing boards at the expense of actual defense.

[trex_8063]

I'll provide some more data for scrutiny when I've compiled and organized it more, but since I don't know how much time I'll have tomorrow, I want to get my pick in now.

I'm going with Tim Duncan by an extremely close margin. It really almost feels like 1a. TD, 1b. KG for me.
Garnett is a monster, and imo the prototype ideal defensive anchor for the modern game (though in my imagination Bill Russell could give him a run for his money there). Tim Duncan is the superior rim protector though, and a top-tier defensive IQ, and ultimately he has the little better track record of anchoring consistently elite defenses [for nearly two decades]. It's super close in my mind, and I'd not be particularly upset if Garnett takes this spot. They're the clear top 2 in this category, and for me no one else is really even close. #'s 3-10 should be more interesting, imo, as there are a whole mess of guys to sort out (Bobby Jones, Rodman, Sheed, Dray, DeBusschere, Hayes, etc).

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd certainly have him above Rodman if you don't count defensive rebounding as defense. If you do, Rodman takes a massive jump in utility.

I'll never understand the argument on how defensive rebounding is not defense...it's an action that prevents the opposing team from scoring almost by its very definition.

I mean, it can be, but it's not always that. Most of the time I agree with you and I count defensive rebounding as defense, but I don't know that I count a lot of Rodman's defensive rebounding as defense, considering how much time he spent chasing boards at the expense of actual defense.

That's a very different thing than saying defensive rebounding is not defense. There are guys who go for steals and shot blocks at the sacrifice of good defense but I've never heard someone say shot blocking is not defense.

[JordansBulls]

I agree with Bobby Jones. Rasheed Wallace used to torch Duncan. Robinson is who locked him down.

[Leslie Forman]

I'll never understand the argument on how defensive rebounding is not defense...it's an action that prevents the opposing team from scoring almost by its very definition.

I mean, it can be, but it's not always that. Most of the time I agree with you and I count defensive rebounding as defense, but I don't know that I count a lot of Rodman's defensive rebounding as defense, considering how much time he spent chasing boards at the expense of actual defense.

That's a very different thing than saying defensive rebounding is not defense. There are guys who go for steals and shot blocks at the sacrifice of good defense but I've never heard someone say shot blocking is not defense.

I'll go ahead and say it: shot blocking is not defense.

Does it correlate many times to great defenders? Yes. But throughout the years, we've seen that the impact of shot blocks to overall defense is not very important.

In fact they're actually less valuable than just making a guy miss a shot, because a blocked shot is more likely to be rebounded by the offense.

[cecilthesheep]

I agree with Bobby Jones. Rasheed Wallace used to torch Duncan. Robinson is who locked him down.

Rasheed Wallace, career stats: 32.7m / 14.4p / 6.7r / 1.8a / 1.5t / .536 true shooting (.467/.336/.721 slash line)
Rasheed Wallace vs Duncan: 33.9m / 14.7p / 6.8r / 1.5a / 1.3t / .481 true shooting (.414/.319/.748 slash line)

So the same totals but on crap efficiency. I really doubt that was all Robinson; even if Robinson spent some time guarding him, it seems unlikely that he could have been "torching" Duncan in the remaining minutes.

[cecilthesheep]

I mean, it can be, but it's not always that. Most of the time I agree with you and I count defensive rebounding as defense, but I don't know that I count a lot of Rodman's defensive rebounding as defense, considering how much time he spent chasing boards at the expense of actual defense.

That's a very different thing than saying defensive rebounding is not defense. There are guys who go for steals and shot blocks at the sacrifice of good defense but I've never heard someone say shot blocking is not defense.

I'll go ahead and say it: shot blocking is not defense.

Does it correlate many times to great defenders? Yes. But throughout the years, we've seen that the impact of shot blocks to overall defense is not very important.

In fact they're actually less valuable than just making a guy miss a shot, because a blocked shot is more likely to be rebounded by the offense.

None of that is always true though. For instance, the Duncan signature move of blocking a shot to yourself rather than swatting it away is absolutely defense. And that's not even taking the psychological impact of blocks into account.

Fundamentally, when a player blocks a shot, he's getting in the way of the ball going in the basket; I think we have to call that defense. Saying it's not defense because you can do it in a way that doesn't help your team is like saying scoring isn't offense for the same reason.

[cecilthesheep]

Some of the past criticisms against KG don't even make that much sense. I've heard that he's not a rim protector, but a power forward that averages almost 2 blocks per game is certainly a rim protector.

He is arguably the GOAT pick and roll defender, and the pick and roll rules basketball - at least in the modern era. There isn't any more important defensive skill than being able to guard the PNR, him doing it while being 7 foot tall is a nice feather.

KG beats Duncan on glass, on the perimeter, probably in transition - and he is presumably more vocal on defense (I could be wrong on this, but that's the perception). Duncan is a better rim protector and a better post defender (not very important in my opinion)

KG anchored arguably the goat defense, albeit he has anchored a lot of meh ones. DRAPM year in and year out consistently put him at the top and that can't be a coincidence or some stat conspiracy.

My vote goes to Kevin Garnett

I think your assessment of their strengths is basically correct, but I think they're dead even vocally. Tim was quiet off the court, but he was one of the all-time great communicators on it. I'd also give the edge on the glass to Duncan; his offensive and defensive rebounding rates are both higher than KG's, and he was essentially perfect at boxing out for teammates.

All that said, I voted for Garnett too, because of the transition and perimeter defense among other things, so we're pretty much in agreement.

[JordansBulls]

I agree with Bobby Jones. Rasheed Wallace used to torch Duncan. Robinson is who locked him down.

Rasheed Wallace, career stats: 32.7m / 14.4p / 6.7r / 1.8a / 1.5t / .536 true shooting (.467/.336/.721 slash line)
Rasheed Wallace vs Duncan: 33.9m / 14.7p / 6.8r / 1.5a / 1.3t / .481 true shooting (.414/.319/.748 slash line)

So the same totals but on crap efficiency. I really doubt that was all Robinson; even if Robinson spent some time guarding him, it seems unlikely that he could have been "torching" Duncan in the remaining minutes.

You must have missed the 1999 series then.

[cecilthesheep]

I agree with Bobby Jones. Rasheed Wallace used to torch Duncan. Robinson is who locked him down.

Rasheed Wallace, career stats: 32.7m / 14.4p / 6.7r / 1.8a / 1.5t / .536 true shooting (.467/.336/.721 slash line)
Rasheed Wallace vs Duncan: 33.9m / 14.7p / 6.8r / 1.5a / 1.3t / .481 true shooting (.414/.319/.748 slash line)

So the same totals but on crap efficiency. I really doubt that was all Robinson; even if Robinson spent some time guarding him, it seems unlikely that he could have been "torching" Duncan in the remaining minutes.

You must have missed the 1999 series then.

One playoff series doesn't mean much. Teams game-plan all kinds of stuff like "we're not going to send any help at this guy, we'll just live with him getting his points if we can shut everyone else down." I don't know if that's precisely what the Spurs were doing that year, because I wasn't old enough to understand much about basketball beyond the surface-level stuff, but given that the Spurs swept the series four games to none, Rasheed clearly wasn't hurting them too badly.

[Leslie Forman]

That's a very different thing than saying defensive rebounding is not defense. There are guys who go for steals and shot blocks at the sacrifice of good defense but I've never heard someone say shot blocking is not defense.

I'll go ahead and say it: shot blocking is not defense.

Does it correlate many times to great defenders? Yes. But throughout the years, we've seen that the impact of shot blocks to overall defense is not very important.

In fact they're actually less valuable than just making a guy miss a shot, because a blocked shot is more likely to be rebounded by the offense.

None of that is always true though. For instance, the Duncan signature move of blocking a shot to yourself rather than swatting it away is absolutely defense. And that's not even taking the psychological impact of blocks into account.

Fundamentally, when a player blocks a shot, he's getting in the way of the ball going in the basket; I think we have to call that defense. Saying it's not defense because you can do it in a way that doesn't help your team is like saying scoring isn't offense for the same reason.

Well yes, a block is "defense" because it is, literally, an act of defending. But is it "good" defense? Not really. No more than just getting in someone's face and contesting. When it comes to determining how good a player or team is at defending, blocks are completely meaningless.

You bring up Tim Duncan. Well he's smack dab between Brendan Haywood and Andrew Lang in career block %. That's how useless a barometer it is. Now if you wanna go watch tape of every single one of his career blocks and show me that the defensive rebounding rate of his blocks is somehow way higher than everyone else's blocks, go ahead, but I'm gonna guess that that's not the case.

In fact I've long thought that blocks that result in a turnover are the only ones that should be counted in box scores. Blocked shots that don't result in a turnover might as well just go in a "defended misses" category.

[HeartBreakKid]

But a block shot is just a result of contesting a shot. To say block shots are useless or bad defense is the same thing as saying contesting a shot is useless.

[WestGOAT]

KG hands down in the modern NBA (last 10 years especially), but since we are doing this all-time you have go with Tim Duncan.