#3 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[iggymcfrack]

Very, very interesting stuff with the on/off data for Bobby Jones. Still not enough for me to put him ahead of Draymond, but I’ll definitely give him a very strong look at #4.

[Gibson22]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

[cecilthesheep]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

Eh, the list is what the voters make it. Inconsistency in who's voting is the problem. I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with Andre Iguodala and Shane Battier somehow getting voted in above Bowen, Kirilenko, etc.

[trex_8063]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

Eh, the list is what the voters make it. Inconsistency in who's voting is the problem. I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with Andre Iguodala and Shane Battier somehow getting voted in above Bowen, Kirilenko, etc.

That's not at all the same thing as the longevity issue (wrt Green or Kawhi).
And what is wrong with Battier or Iggy ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko? As some of us went to lengths to show/justify, it's a legitimate and tenable position to have them ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko.

[70sFan]

I don't want to sound biased, but how is that possible that Green has more valuable career defensively than Elvin Hayes when Big E has four times longer career and he was DPOTY-caliber player for longer than Green is in NBA.

I agree, some people are not consistent in this project. That's why I wasn't willing to participate (other than lack of time).

[LA Bird]

I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with ....

People who don't participate shouldn't get to complain about the outcome of the list - simple as that. Everybody can vote (without even any reasoning). Everybody can post in the threads and try to persuade others to vote for their candidate. People who don't do either of those things are only derailing the later threads when they show up after the voting is over to say things like:
"Can somebody explain how player X got voted in before player Y?" or
"This list is trash without player X in top 5".

[iggymcfrack]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

It’s not as much about how long their career is for me as it is how long they played at a really elite level. Kawhi had 2 elite seasons and they weren’t much better than the top seasons for the guys that were good for longer. Draymond has had 5 elite seasons including 3 that were better than anything Kawhi or the players currently ranked below him at PF ever did in their career. That’s a big difference to me.

It’s kinda unfair when you’re ranking PFs because you almost have to play some minutes at the 5 to really have game-changing impact. KG had his 3 best defensive seasons in his 30s because he was playing center and that allowed him to have way more impact than he could as a true 4. Same for Duncan, he was always playing at least a large share of his minutes at center which is what allowed him to impact the game in a way that a pure 4 like Jones couldn’t. And Draymond had an unprecedented postseason impact while playing 31% of his postseason minutes at the 5 from 14/15 through 16/17. But if we’re looking at how they impacted the game, I just think they did a lot more in those years than Rodman or Jones was capable of.

[SkyHookFTW]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

It’s not as much about how long their career is for me as it is how long they played at a really elite level. Kawhi had 2 elite seasons and they weren’t much better than the top seasons for the guys that were good for longer. Draymond has had 5 elite seasons including 3 that were better than anything Kawhi or the players currently ranked below him at PF ever did in their career. That’s a big difference to me.

It’s kinda unfair when you’re ranking PFs because you almost have to play some minutes at the 5 to really have game-changing impact. KG had his 3 best defensive seasons in his 30s because he was playing center and that allowed him to have way more impact than he could as a true 4. Same for Duncan, he was always playing at least a large share of his minutes at center which is what allowed him to impact the game in a way that a pure 4 like Jones couldn’t. And Draymond had an unprecedented postseason impact while playing 31% of his postseason minutes at the 5 from 14/15 through 16/17. But if we’re looking at how they impacted the game, I just think they did a lot more in those years than Rodman or Jones was capable of.

To defend Jones here, remember that in his case with the Sixers he was playing with centers not known for defense. Jones could not afford an off night because the last line of defense at the rim wasn't much of a last line of defense. Opponents actively tried to get their best scorers away from Jones. I'd say that's impacting a game in a way most defenders can't.

[trex_8063]

Well.....I feel like my usual longevity-driven principles push me toward Hayes, but my gut somehow wants to say Bobby Jones. So since I'm kinda on the fence and Jones appears to be the one with more traction, I'll go ahead and make it official. Vote: Bobby Jones.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Rodman

My look at Bobby Jones was overwhelmingly through the eyes of an early 1980s Celtic fan watching Jones play the Celtics. I respect Bobby Jones but I am not putting him above Rodman. Caldwell Jones was more effective at limiting Cedric Maxwell than Bobby Jones was. Bobby Jones was not significantly better on Bird than Dr J was. Booby Jones also did not have a great impact on young McHale.

I probably won't pick Bobby Jones at 4 either but I do think he belongs in the top 10
I don't particularly hold Jones minutes per game limitation against him but somebody might.

I love Draymond. He is on my home team and I know how good he is. I will put Draymond over Bobby Jones but I am not putting him above Rodman.

I can't really judge Elvin Hayes. I only saw the well past his prime Elvin Hayes.

[HeartBreakKid]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

It’s not as much about how long their career is for me as it is how long they played at a really elite level. Kawhi had 2 elite seasons and they weren’t much better than the top seasons for the guys that were good for longer. Draymond has had 5 elite seasons including 3 that were better than anything Kawhi or the players currently ranked below him at PF ever did in their career. That’s a big difference to me.

It’s kinda unfair when you’re ranking PFs because you almost have to play some minutes at the 5 to really have game-changing impact. KG had his 3 best defensive seasons in his 30s because he was playing center and that allowed him to have way more impact than he could as a true 4. Same for Duncan, he was always playing at least a large share of his minutes at center which is what allowed him to impact the game in a way that a pure 4 like Jones couldn’t. And Draymond had an unprecedented postseason impact while playing 31% of his postseason minutes at the 5 from 14/15 through 16/17. But if we’re looking at how they impacted the game, I just think they did a lot more in those years than Rodman or Jones was capable of.

What seasons were these? I count only 4.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

To defend Jones here, remember that in his case with the Sixers he was playing with centers not known for defense. Jones could not afford an off night because the last line of defense at the rim wasn't much of a last line of defense. Opponents actively tried to get their best scorers away from Jones. I'd say that's impacting a game in a way most defenders can't.

I know you mean Dawkins and Moses but Caldwell Jones was a damn fine defender. Caldwell Jones played center half the time and power forward half of the time.

[iggymcfrack]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

It’s not as much about how long their career is for me as it is how long they played at a really elite level. Kawhi had 2 elite seasons and they weren’t much better than the top seasons for the guys that were good for longer. Draymond has had 5 elite seasons including 3 that were better than anything Kawhi or the players currently ranked below him at PF ever did in their career. That’s a big difference to me.

It’s kinda unfair when you’re ranking PFs because you almost have to play some minutes at the 5 to really have game-changing impact. KG had his 3 best defensive seasons in his 30s because he was playing center and that allowed him to have way more impact than he could as a true 4. Same for Duncan, he was always playing at least a large share of his minutes at center which is what allowed him to impact the game in a way that a pure 4 like Jones couldn’t. And Draymond had an unprecedented postseason impact while playing 31% of his postseason minutes at the 5 from 14/15 through 16/17. But if we’re looking at how they impacted the game, I just think they did a lot more in those years than Rodman or Jones was capable of.

What seasons were these? I count only 4.

Well in ‘14, he didn’t play big minutes until the playoffs but he did still lead all power forwards with a 3.99 DRPM.

[cecilthesheep]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

Eh, the list is what the voters make it. Inconsistency in who's voting is the problem. I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with Andre Iguodala and Shane Battier somehow getting voted in above Bowen, Kirilenko, etc.

That's not at all the same thing as the longevity issue (wrt Green or Kawhi).
And what is wrong with Battier or Iggy ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko? As some of us went to lengths to show/justify, it's a legitimate and tenable position to have them ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko.

Longevity was an argument that was used against Kirilenko and Bowen both; it wasn't the only thing, but it was part of it.

And I apologize in advance for this paragraph, because I really do respect your analytical approach to these discussions, but: in my mind, saying Shane Battier is the fifth-best defensive small forward ever is just such a galaxy-brain take that you have to be prioritizing the wrong inputs. Perimeter defense is something that advanced stats, to this day, have not completely figured out how to value. What we can observe from watching them on the court has to be a very significant factor. Using page-long lists of opaque aggregate numbers to determine the ranking is not convincing to me when Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.

[cecilthesheep]

I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with ....

People who don't participate shouldn't get to complain about the outcome of the list - simple as that. Everybody can vote (without even any reasoning). Everybody can post in the threads and try to persuade others to vote for their candidate. People who don't do either of those things are only derailing the later threads when they show up after the voting is over to say things like:
"Can somebody explain how player X got voted in before player Y?" or
"This list is trash without player X in top 5".

Yeah, I agree, I hate that too - but I've participated since the beginning, so I'll complain a little for myself

[trex_8063]

Eh, the list is what the voters make it. Inconsistency in who's voting is the problem. I think a lot of people left halfway through the small forwards list, and I don't like what it's done to the project, but I completely understand their frustration with Andre Iguodala and Shane Battier somehow getting voted in above Bowen, Kirilenko, etc.

That's not at all the same thing as the longevity issue (wrt Green or Kawhi).
And what is wrong with Battier or Iggy ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko? As some of us went to lengths to show/justify, it's a legitimate and tenable position to have them ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko.

Longevity was an argument that was used against Kirilenko and Bowen both; it wasn't the only thing, but it was part of it.

And I apologize in advance for this paragraph, because I really do respect your analytical approach to these discussions, but: in my mind, saying Shane Battier is the fifth-best defensive small forward ever is just such a galaxy-brain take that you have to be prioritizing the wrong inputs. Perimeter defense is something that advanced stats, to this day, have not completely figured out how to value. What we can observe from watching them on the court has to be a very significant factor. Using page-long lists of opaque aggregate numbers to determine the ranking is not convincing to me when Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.

No need to apologize. Anyway.....
I don't want to derail for much longer, but I'll say that the guys doing the "discussing" [Bowen being the best, for example] often get it wrong (as do we all). You're saying you're somewhat meh on aggregate numbers, fair enough. I'm a little meh on the arguments that hangs its hat on "I have eyes and I use them to watch basketball games", unless the break-down of what they're seeing is incredibly thorough.
We all watch games, and likely have been doing so since we were kids. But the eye-test has as much margin of error as anything (arguably more). If the eye-test were so reliable, we'd mostly share the same opinions, no?

You can claim your eye-test is more reliable than that of others, but most other people do, too. I'm not inclined to trust the opinions of others solely because they have a job selling print for one publication or another (and fwiw, their opinions----by way of All-D honors and DPOY shares----were an inclusion in the aggregate listings I'm providing anyway).
You say I'm prioritizing the wrong inputs, but you simultaneously appear to be advocating prioritizing the opinions of these people above most other things. I'll admit I'm going to have a hard time agreeing to prioritize their opinions in the same way. The fact that both Shawn Marion and Rasheed Wallace have a combined ZERO All-D honors, or that Luol Deng did NOT receive All-D honors in the year he appears to be the principle anchor an all-time level defense, or that Kobe Bryant has 9 All-D 1st honors and once finished third in the DPOY vote, or that DeMar DeRozan got All-NBA 2nd last year, etc etc.......these all tell me that these guys get it a little wrong on a regular basis.

I do, for the record watch basketball with as studious an eye as I'm able to apply (and do on occasion provide some scouting-type observations and critiques to compliment my "aggregate numbers"). But I could get it wrong sometimes too (just like them), so I do think it's worthwhile to temper eye-test assessments with some more objective measures. And all of the guys we've been discussing here (Bowen, Battier, Iggy, AK47) ALL played their entire careers within the "databall" era, in which we have more sophisticated analytic tools at our disposal than in any previous time. Those means are [mostly] painting Iguodala and Battier as a clear cut above Bowen and Kirilenko (at least in career value added).

And for me, that's consistent with my eye-test (so when my eye matches what the impact metrics are actually saying, I don't see that as any galaxy-bending stance; the Earth is still round for me). I mentioned earlier this thread that I think perimeter "stoppers" have been historically overrated; and that's basically what Bowen was. I just think there's a limited amount of value provided by being a containment perimeter defender, and not a great deal else (and fwiw this is largely supported in impact metrics).
Kirilenko was obviously something different, but I mentioned question marks regarding his inability to anchor any really good defenses (or sometimes even an above average [or average] one) if he was as good as some were claiming. And yes, his longevity hurt him in my eyes too (played like >6k fewer minutes than Battier, ~12k fewer than Iggy......that's nothing to sneeze at).

[cecilthesheep]

That's not at all the same thing as the longevity issue (wrt Green or Kawhi).
And what is wrong with Battier or Iggy ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko? As some of us went to lengths to show/justify, it's a legitimate and tenable position to have them ahead of Bowen or Kirilenko.

Longevity was an argument that was used against Kirilenko and Bowen both; it wasn't the only thing, but it was part of it.

And I apologize in advance for this paragraph, because I really do respect your analytical approach to these discussions, but: in my mind, saying Shane Battier is the fifth-best defensive small forward ever is just such a galaxy-brain take that you have to be prioritizing the wrong inputs. Perimeter defense is something that advanced stats, to this day, have not completely figured out how to value. What we can observe from watching them on the court has to be a very significant factor. Using page-long lists of opaque aggregate numbers to determine the ranking is not convincing to me when Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.

No need to apologize. Anyway.....
I don't want to derail for much longer, but I'll say that the guys doing the "discussing" [Bowen being the best, for example] often get it wrong (as do we all). You're saying you're somewhat meh on aggregate numbers, fair enough. I'm a little meh on the arguments that hangs its hat on "I have eyes and I use them to watch basketball games", unless the break-down of what they're seeing is incredibly thorough.
We all watch games, and likely have been doing so since we were kids. But the eye-test has as much margin of error as anything (arguably more). If the eye-test were so reliable, we'd mostly share the same opinions, no?

You can claim your eye-test is more reliable than that of others, but most other people do, too. I'm not inclined to trust the opinions of others solely because they have a job selling print for one publication or another (and fwiw, their opinions----by way of All-D honors and DPOY shares----were an inclusion in the aggregate listings I'm providing anyway).
You say I'm prioritizing the wrong inputs, but you simultaneously appear to be advocating prioritizing the opinions of these people above most other things. I'll admit I'm going to have a hard time agreeing to prioritize their opinions in the same way. The fact that both Shawn Marion and Rasheed Wallace have a combined ZERO All-D honors, or that Luol Deng did NOT receive All-D honors in the year he appears to be the principle anchor an all-time level defense, or that Kobe Bryant has 9 All-D 1st honors and once finished third in the DPOY vote, or that DeMar DeRozan got All-NBA 2nd last year, etc etc.......these all tell me that these guys get it a little wrong on a regular basis.

I do, for the record watch basketball with as studious an eye as I'm able to apply (and do on occasion provide some scouting-type observations and critiques to compliment my "aggregate numbers"). But I could get it wrong sometimes too (just like them), so I do think it's worthwhile to temper eye-test assessments with some more objective measures. And all of the guys we've been discussing here (Bowen, Battier, Iggy, AK47) ALL played their entire careers within the "databall" era, in which we have more sophisticated analytic tools at our disposal than in any previous time. Those means are [mostly] painting Iguodala and Battier as a clear cut above Bowen and Kirilenko (at least in career value added).

And for me, that's consistent with my eye-test (so when my eye matches what the impact metrics are actually saying, I don't see that as any galaxy-bending stance; the Earth is still round for me). I mentioned earlier this thread that I think perimeter "stoppers" have been historically overrated; and that's basically what Bowen was. I just think there's a limited amount of value provided by being a containment perimeter defender, and not a great deal else (and fwiw this is largely supported in impact metrics).
Kirilenko was obviously something different, but I mentioned question marks regarding his inability to anchor any really good defenses (or sometimes even an above average [or average] one) if he was as good as some were claiming. And yes, his longevity hurt him in my eyes too (played like >6k fewer minutes than Battier, ~12k fewer than Iggy......that's nothing to sneeze at).

That all makes sense, and like I said, I do respect your position. I just very much disagree, because no matter how much room for error the eye test has, and even though I do agree that advanced numbers need to be a factor - I still trust my eye test first when someone has a gigantic eye-test advantage the way Bowen does over these other guys **in my opinion**, and when a lot of people both from the time Bowen played and presently agree with my eye-test, and when we're talking about perimeter defense which I believe is very hard for stats to accurately quantify.

[WestGOAT]

Vote Draymond Green

[penbeast0]

...Bowen was discussed for years as someone who might have been the absolute best defender in the whole league at any position. Battier would never have been seriously mentioned on that topic. Neither would Iguodala.

Actually, I remember an SI article about Battier being the best defender in the league and talking about how he used analytics and studying tendencies to push opposing players out of their comfort zone. I don't tend to read SI for their serious analysis but if you are saying he was never seriously mentioned, it might give you some comfort.

I don't ever remember Bowen discussed as the best defender in the league either, btw, only the best perimeter defender (which was enough for me to vote for him over the other 3 defenders voted here despite the above comment).

[Dr Positivity]

Cmon guys, The list needs some consistency, a 13k minutes played draymond green can't get the #3 place or anything near this if leonard got the #10 place and andre roberson got 0 consideration for the SG spot because of longevity

Tbf Draymond longevity is better than Kawhi in my opinion. Draymond has four DPOY caliber years to Kawhi's two, plus still led PFs in 2014 in DRPM if only playing 22mpg. I think Kawhi could have been 3rd for SFs if he had four years as good as his 15 or 16. But my issue is that the competition at PF is really strong to put Draymond this high.