#7 Greatest Defensive PF of All-Time - Top 10 Defense at each position project

[Gibson22]

draymond won

[trex_8063]

...The DVOR (Defensive Value Over Replacement) cited below is NOT to be confused with DVORP (as in something derived from the VORP numbers on bbref). DVOR utilizes DRAPM and minutes played, and attempts to illuminate the defensive value above a replacement level player [set at -0.75 DRAPM] per season in best years, per game in best years, per career, as so forth as indicated in headers.
However, DRAPM only exists for ‘97 and after. I utilized rs APM [on/off stat] combined with shutupandjam’s Estimated Impact [a box-derived figure] defensive split to make an “educated estimate” for DRAPM for ‘94-’96. And then I just used straight Estimated Impact defensive split for years prior to ‘94. I know this isn’t ideal or true apples to apples, but I wanted a means to include older players in all these broad categories.

Interesting that Silas, Gus Johnson, and Kevin McHale all rate at the bottom of virtually every DVOR list (career, average, peak, etc.) while all three were excellent defenders (having watched them both as contemporaries, I was more impressed by Silas than Gus defensively although (a) Gus had more offensive responsibility and (b) Gus had suffered knee injuries by 1969). These are 3 very different types of players. Silas was the dirty work intimidator/banger who bodied everyone, set picks, boxed out, etc. . . sort of the prototype for guys like Maurice Lucas, Charles Oakley. Gus was the hyper-athlete who (if I remember) used to hold the record for most broken backboards when Darryl Dawkins shattered his famous one in Kansas City. McHale was sort of Tim Duncan light, mobile but not fluid defensively, vertical shotblocker type. What does the stat look for in these older players and why do you think it rates them so low?

I’m not sure, but I can take some guesses.
For one, the defensive split is “curved” toward the TEAM’s rDRTG. So take Silas or Johnson: Silas didn’t play for an elite defense in any of his first 8 seasons (and a few were poor team defenses); Johnson played for more bad defenses than good (and only one elite-level). This is going to hurt their broad/whole-career numbers. Non-coincidentally, Johnson has his three best defensive EI splits in ‘69-’71 (the three best team defenses of his career), and Silas has his single-best defensive EI split in ‘73 (the single-best team defense he played for).

It’s also box-derived. The author has attempted to estimate a player’s impact based on their box production and efficiency (sounds like using some guidance from more modern RAPM seasons, studying how RAPM scores correlate to box production), and then curved it toward the team’s offensive and defensive efficiency [as stated in last paragraph]. This will have the same short-comings box-production always does in predicting impact, and perhaps even more with older players where the box stats are incomplete: prior to ‘73, literally the ONLY “defensive” stat is rebounds (not even broken into offensive and defensive yet, but estimates could be made as to how many are defensive). It sounds like he uses proxies for steals and blocks for earlier years where they were not recorded (likely assists for steals--->neither Silas nor Johnson got a ton of assists) and rebounds for blocks.

Once blocks and steals WERE being recorded, this likely hurt Silas because---as you noted---he was more of the “dirty work” type defender. He was doing the non-sexy defensive work, but was extremely small in those particular counting stats.
Kevin McHale, for that matter, got a fair number of blocks (though not huge numbers), but near-negligible steal numbers. He also has relatively skimpy DReb numbers for a PF, though part of that, imo, is that he was more often tasked with guarding opposing SF’s, to allow Bird to guard the PF. These defensive assignments also probably limited the number of shots he had opportunity to block, for that matter. These factors would naturally hurt his defensive EI splits.

I’m not sure that simply allowing Bird to get burned a few extra times per game by opposing SF’s wouldn’t have been counter-balanced (or maybe even MORE THAN compensated for) by allowing McHale to play where his defensive talents could be better utilized [at PF]. But this again is the same thing we see with the All-D voting, particular pre-databall: the value [good or bad] of man defense is easier to notice and scrutinize than the value of help/team D. i.e. they recognized the damage of Bird getting burned more easily than they could see the added value of allowing McHale to play PF on defense.


So those are some theories. And as I mentioned in the section you quoted: for whatever unidentified reason, I sometimes felt that EI was giving some of these guys TOO MUCH credit on offense, but not enough on defense. Buck Williams is a good example of a guy whose career spans into the RAPM era and provides some evidence of this: his EI splits were almost exclusively a modest positive on offense and a modest (or at most, moderate) positive on defense. But then once RAPM becomes available in ‘97, we see an abrupt shift to a SIGNIFICANT positive defensively and a small negative offensively.

Again, it’s not apples to apples; I just wanted some means to include the older guys in the comparisons. But it really does require one kinda think about the grains of salt inherent.

[trex_8063]

For whatever reason, I'm pretty content with who's in the top 6 (if not the exact order of them). It "felt" like those were the six guys with the most complete resumes. After that, the field is once again very wide open for me. I'll look at a few primary candidates in turn below....

Draymond Green - I agree he feels like someone who "should" be on the list somewhere, although tbh, here at #7 is about the earliest I could seriously consider him [longevity]. He's arguably the best defensive peak left on the table, though, and his longevity isn't quite as small as Kawhi's, for example. With 2 DPOY's and multiple All-D honors, he's certainly at/near the top in terms of accolades of all remaining candidates too, fwiw.

Rasheed Wallace - imo, it's certainly time to at least break the ice on discussion of him. He played virtually his entire career in the databall era, and his DRAPM is pretty consistently stellar. I'd feel more comfortable with this (in terms of line-up noise or colinearity concerns) if we saw a consistent trend of improvement/decline when he arrives/leaves teams; we usually do, but not as 100% consistent as we might hope given his DRAPM profile. My memory of prime Sheed is that he was a very solid post defender, solid hedging on the pnr, and provided pretty good rim protection (career 2.2 blk/100, peaking at 3.0 in ‘08 when allowed to play more C). As shown in the aggregates I provided above, he’s absolutely a top-tier candidate in terms of impact-derived value (for peak, prime, and career). The near utter lack of accolades may be a strike against him for some.

Karl Malone - Possible longevity pick?? I realize there are likely multiple candidates with a higher defensive peak or better average prime year defensively. But Karl was awfully consistent for an awfully long time. He was never “great” defensively, but ranged somewhere between “fair/passable” to “good” defensively basically every year for the entirety of his 19-year career, and did so while never missing games until his final season. In terms of cumulative value, I think he must at least be given a look.

Bo Outlaw - Another possible dark-horse candidate (although imo he shouldn’t be a “dark horse”). Not a star, nor even a consistent starter in most years of his prime. As such, he’s somewhat lacking in minutes relative to many others. This can potentially harm his candidacy in the same way that poor longevity hurts others. But as is evident in his impact metrics, this guy made a BIG defensive imprint whenever he was on the floor; like arguably as big as anyone left on the table. A relevant rim-protector, even after he toned down his intensity to curb the foul troubles of his early seasons, and a fundamentally sound team defender iirc. He averaged >26 mpg in five seasons, >19 mpg in 10 seasons…...given he was a minimally relevant offensive player, it makes a statement that he was allowed that much playing time. We do see a notable shift in the Magic’s defensive performance when he leaves, too.
Like Wallace, his relative lack of accolades may be a strike against him for some, though I think he suffers for not being a “star” here, or ever playing on a high-profile team.

Kevin McHale - McHale rates well among the remaining candidates in terms of accolades and honors. He rates pretty poorly in my DVOR splits as well as box-derived defensive metrics, though. However, I suspect the fact that he was tasked with guarding opposing SF’s (to allow Bird to guard PF’s) naturally limited both his DReb and Blk numbers, which will naturally limit his DBPM, rDRTG, DWS, and DVOR scores (this is commented on above in post #22). From eye-test, McHale is a sound low-post defender who was also capable of guarding SF’s (not sure it’s the best utilization of him, but it highlights some versatility), while also blocking 2.7 shots/100 possessions (which is fairly impressive considering how often he was guarding SF’s on the perimeter). I consequently think he’s a valid candidate, despite the poor box-derived defensive metrics.

Horace Grant - Rates pretty well in my DVOR studies (at least for larger samples). Looks very good via eye-test: tough low-post defender capable of guarding both PF’s and C’s, good pnr defender, boxes out, and provides a little rim protection. Good longevity among this group, too. Somewhat lacking in accolades.

Paul Silas - Doesn’t rate well in DVOR, but there may be some reasons alluded to above in post #22. Rates fair in one or two of the other box-derived defensive metrics, and rates well among those remaining in defensive honors, too. Dirty-work type defender who rebounded well. We do see the Celtics team defense take a jump with his arrival, fwiw, while Phoenix’s defense takes an even larger drop with his leaving.
I’d perhaps say most of these^^^ same things about Charles Oakley and Buck Williams.

Larry Nance - Well, he rates roughly middle of the pack in most of the things I’ve been citing. A little bit soft in the post (and perhaps on the boards, too??), but an EXCELLENT shot-blocker who could guard SF’s or PF’s. Must admit I’m troubled by the fact that we don’t see a consistent/predictable effect of his arrival/leaving on his two teams.


But anyway, literally any/all of these guys would arguably make a valid inclusion in the top 10, imo. I’ll decide shortly who I want to cast in with.

[70sFan]

For whatever reason, I'm pretty content with who's in the top 6 (if not the exact order of them). It "felt" like those were the six guys with the most complete resumes. After that, the field is once again very wide open for me. I'll look at a few primary candidates in turn below....

Draymond Green - I agree he feels like someone who "should" be on the list somewhere, although tbh, here at #7 is about the earliest I could seriously consider him [longevity]. He's arguably the best defensive peak left on the table, though, and his longevity isn't quite as small as Kawhi's, for example. With 2 DPOY's and multiple All-D honors, he's certainly at/near the top in terms of accolades of all remaining candidates too, fwiw.

Rasheed Wallace - imo, it's certainly time to at least break the ice on discussion of him. He played virtually his entire career in the databall era, and his DRAPM is pretty consistently stellar. I'd feel more comfortable with this (in terms of line-up noise or colinearity concerns) if we saw a consistent trend of improvement/decline when he arrives/leaves teams; we usually do, but not as 100% consistent as we might hope given his DRAPM profile. My memory of prime Sheed is that he was a very solid post defender, solid hedging on the pnr, and provided pretty good rim protection (career 2.2 blk/100, peaking at 3.0 in ‘08 when allowed to play more C). As shown in the aggregates I provided above, he’s absolutely a top-tier candidate in terms of impact-derived value (for peak, prime, and career). The near utter lack of accolades may be a strike against him for some.

Karl Malone - Possible longevity pick?? I realize there are likely multiple candidates with a higher defensive peak or better average prime year defensively. But Karl was awfully consistent for an awfully long time. He was never “great” defensively, but ranged somewhere between “fair/passable” to “good” defensively basically every year for the entirety of his 19-year career, and did so while never missing games until his final season. In terms of cumulative value, I think he must at least be given a look.

Bo Outlaw - Another possible dark-horse candidate (although imo he shouldn’t be a “dark horse”). Not a star, nor even a consistent starter in most years of his prime. As such, he’s somewhat lacking in minutes relative to many others. This can potentially harm his candidacy in the same way that poor longevity hurts others. But as is evident in his impact metrics, this guy made a BIG defensive imprint whenever he was on the floor; like arguably as big as anyone left on the table. A relevant rim-protector, even after he toned down his intensity to curb the foul troubles of his early seasons, and a fundamentally sound team defender iirc. He averaged >26 mpg in five seasons, >19 mpg in 10 seasons…...given he was a minimally relevant offensive player, it makes a statement that he was allowed that much playing time. We do see a notable shift in the Magic’s defensive performance when he leaves, too.
Like Wallace, his relative lack of accolades may be a strike against him for some, though I think he suffers for not being a “star” here, or ever playing on a high-profile team.

Kevin McHale - McHale rates well among the remaining candidates in terms of accolades and honors. He rates pretty poorly in my DVOR splits as well as box-derived defensive metrics, though. However, I suspect the fact that he was tasked with guarding opposing SF’s (to allow Bird to guard PF’s) naturally limited both his DReb and Blk numbers, which will naturally limit his DBPM, rDRTG, DWS, and DVOR scores (this is commented on above in post #22). From eye-test, McHale is a sound low-post defender who was also capable of guarding SF’s (not sure it’s the best utilization of him, but it highlights some versatility), while also blocking 2.7 shots/100 possessions (which is fairly impressive considering how often he was guarding SF’s on the perimeter). I consequently think he’s a valid candidate, despite the poor box-derived defensive metrics.

Horace Grant - Rates pretty well in my DVOR studies (at least for larger samples). Looks very good via eye-test: tough low-post defender capable of guarding both PF’s and C’s, good pnr defender, boxes out, and provides a little rim protection. Good longevity among this group, too. Somewhat lacking in accolades.

Paul Silas - Doesn’t rate well in DVOR, but there may be some reasons alluded to above in post #22. Rates fair in one or two of the other box-derived defensive metrics, and rates well among those remaining in defensive honors, too. Dirty-work type defender who rebounded well. We do see the Celtics team defense take a jump with his arrival, fwiw, while Phoenix’s defense takes an even larger drop with his leaving.
I’d perhaps say most of these^^^ same things about Charles Oakley and Buck Williams.

Larry Nance - Well, he rates roughly middle of the pack in most of the things I’ve been citing. A little bit soft in the post (and perhaps on the boards, too??), but an EXCELLENT shot-blocker who could guard SF’s or PF’s. Must admit I’m troubled by the fact that we don’t see a consistent/predictable effect of his arrival/leaving on his two teams.


But anyway, literally any/all of these guys would arguably make a valid inclusion in the top 10, imo. I’ll decide shortly who I want to cast in with.

Does it mean that you wouldn't consider Gus Johnson at all?

[trex_8063]

Does it mean that you wouldn't consider Gus Johnson at all?

Probably not, tbh. Sorry.

His career was so chewed up by injuries, he's got the same number of minutes as Bo Outlaw, with only Draymond Green having fewer career minutes among any of the candidates mentioned (none of the others even close). And considering his career opens in an only partially-integrated league, and the end of his short career occurs in the ABA/expansion diluted period, I'd need some tangible evidence that his defense impact in his prime is just one small tier below that of Bill Russell to give him serious consideration here......and I'm just not seeing that evidence.

[70sFan]

Does it mean that you wouldn't consider Gus Johnson at all?

Probably not, tbh. Sorry.

His career was so chewed up by injuries, he's got the same number of minutes as Bo Outlaw, with only Draymond Green having fewer career minutes among any of the candidates mentioned (none of the others even close). And considering his career opens in an only partially-integrated league, and the end of his short career occurs in the ABA/expansion diluted period, I'd need some tangible evidence that his defense impact in his prime is just one small tier below that of Bill Russell to give him serious consideration here......and I'm just not seeing that evidence.

Don't need to apologize! I understand that, his health issues are quite big and I can't take him over Ho Grant or Sheed in terms of career value.

Would you like to tell me at least what do you think about his defense from what can you find/see? Is it possible that my eyes overrate his impact because he's very active type of defender?

[trex_8063]

Does it mean that you wouldn't consider Gus Johnson at all?

Probably not, tbh. Sorry.

His career was so chewed up by injuries, he's got the same number of minutes as Bo Outlaw, with only Draymond Green having fewer career minutes among any of the candidates mentioned (none of the others even close). And considering his career opens in an only partially-integrated league, and the end of his short career occurs in the ABA/expansion diluted period, I'd need some tangible evidence that his defense impact in his prime is just one small tier below that of Bill Russell to give him serious consideration here......and I'm just not seeing that evidence.

Don't need to apologize! I understand that, his health issues are quite big and I can't take him over Ho Grant or Sheed in terms of career value.

Would you like to tell me at least what do you think about his defense from what can you find/see? Is it possible that my eyes overrate his impact because he's very active type of defender?

I perhaps need to re-watch some stuff and get back to you (and if you have some recommended links, please post them here). I recall watching at least part of a couple Bullets games from '71 (or '72??), but otherwise the only Gus Johnson I've seen is from highlight reels.
However, my gut impression from the limited amount I've seen (and from what research I've done) is that Gus Johnson gambled somewhat liberally, and that his overall defensive impact was likely below the best years of some of the other candidates we have.
I'd, for example, consider Draymond Green before Johnson [even with the smaller minutes] because I think he's probably had no fewer three defensive seasons better than Gus Johnson's best.

[70sFan]

Probably not, tbh. Sorry.

His career was so chewed up by injuries, he's got the same number of minutes as Bo Outlaw, with only Draymond Green having fewer career minutes among any of the candidates mentioned (none of the others even close). And considering his career opens in an only partially-integrated league, and the end of his short career occurs in the ABA/expansion diluted period, I'd need some tangible evidence that his defense impact in his prime is just one small tier below that of Bill Russell to give him serious consideration here......and I'm just not seeing that evidence.

Don't need to apologize! I understand that, his health issues are quite big and I can't take him over Ho Grant or Sheed in terms of career value.

Would you like to tell me at least what do you think about his defense from what can you find/see? Is it possible that my eyes overrate his impact because he's very active type of defender?

I perhaps need to re-watch some stuff and get back to you (and if you have some recommended links, please post them here). I recall watching at least part of a couple Bullets games from '71 (or '72??), but otherwise the only Gus Johnson I've seen is from highlight reels.
However, my gut impression from the limited amount I've seen (and from what research I've done) is that Gus Johnson gambled somewhat liberally, and that his overall defensive impact was likely below the best years of some of the other candidates we have.
I'd, for example, consider Draymond Green before Johnson [even with the smaller minutes] because I think he's probably had no fewer three defensive seasons better than Gus Johnson's best.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

These two ASGs are the only full games we have with him outside of 1971 footage, at least from what I know.

[trex_8063]

Just to get a vote in, although it doesn't change the result. I think Draymond's a reasonable choice, but I'm not going to support him (he's going to take this spot anyway). For reasons alluded to in previous posts (outstanding impact profile and pretty good longevity), my vote is Rasheed Wallace.

I could see potentially shifting my vote to Kevin McHale (or another), if he has more traction in a later round. It's all pretty close in my mind.

[trex_8063]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

These two ASGs are the only full games we have with him outside of 1971 footage, at least from what I know.

Thanks for these. Is that your personal YT channel? If so, kudos. I've been a subscriber to that one for a year or two, have watched a small handful of games there. These All-Star games are better than today's AS games; guys are actually playing hard, interested in winning.
In more recent AS games, yeah, they're all phenomenal athletes and players, but it's like you're watching phenomenal athletes fool around in a driveway goof-off game at your friend's back-yard BBQ. This '69 AS game I found much more interesting (and the video [and audio] quality is fantastic for such an old game).

Anyway, I watched all of the '69 AS game; so far, my opinion on Gus Johnson is not particularly improved.
I'll give him this: he does seem to impede movement of his man on the perimeter somewhat [at least on the strong side]---though not to the degree we see Dave DeBusschere doing, and frequently Gus helps out hedging a penetrator [not his man] when he's adjacent. He does have a couple of nice blocks (one is that block which leads to a fast-break, it's in most of his highlight reels), and he came up with like 7 rebounds in limited minutes (though fwiw I do NOT see him boxing out with any consistency; rather he seems to get into a reasonable rebounding area and then rely on his strength and leaping ability to get boards).

But otherwise, my initial impression (that he gambles a lot) is so far being proven true. At one point in the first half (first video clip; sorry, I did not note the time-stamp in the video) he reaches for a steal, carrying over well into the back-court and causing a defensive break-down (as the offense then had a momentary 5-on-4).

At the 11:00 mark in the third video clip we see him gamble again on a reach, carrying himself out of the play; it's then the guy he'd been guarding (Rudy LaRusso) who ultimately gets the offensive rebound and scores (Gus Johnson no where to be seen in the frame, as he apparently made no attempt to recover his man or otherwise get back into the play on defense).

There were a couple spots in the first video clip where he looked a little lackadaisical getting back on transition D, too. There's one play where he's just marginally trailing the fast-break (I think it was Joe Caldwell pushing the ball up for the West), and Gus shows every appearance of stalking the play (you know, the way Lebron will sometimes stalk the fast-break ball-handler, waiting to take the shot away at the rim), and he has a clear path to do so. But he ultimately does nothing and allows the minimally contested score. idk, this is the All-Star game, so perhaps not the best means of evaluating something like that. It's entirely possible that Gus decided at the last second that he didn't want to risk hurting himself or others for an All-Star game. On the other hand [as I mentioned above], players in this era seem to give a damn about the outcome of an All-Star game (the effort, intensity, and emotion is most apparent in Jerry Sloan and Oscar Robertson).

Additionally, I can see at least a small tendency to lose track of his man off-ball when on the weak-side (because he's watching the ball too much, scouting for theft or block opportunities from the weak-side). Just as one example (there are others), check the 23:43 mark in the third video clip: he fully turns his back on Baylor for at least 4-5 seconds.

So idk; Gus appears like a bit of a double-edged sword on defense, if you catch my meaning.

And sort of non sequitur within this project, but I was not impressed with him on offense at all. He appears to want to shoot it almost every time he touches the ball, but he's only a mediocre shooter which he makes even worse by utterly atrocious shot-selection.
One other random observation: I never before noticed the weird component of Elgin Baylor's FT routine, where he glances at his left shoulder like 3-4 times before shooting.
Oh, and one more random observation: if anyone doubts Wilt Chamberlain's strength, check out the possession at 31:35 mark in the third clip--->Gus Johnson's just pushed his way thru a Chamberlain screen, when Wilt (apparently pissed about something, I think maybe Gus elbowed or swatted him in the groin??) grabs Gus Johnson with one arm and literally flings him out of the frame. Gus Johnson's a rather sturdy, strong-looking man in his own right; but this looks like a grown man tossing a child aside.

I'll try to get around to watching the '70 AS game, too.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

These two ASGs are the only full games we have with him outside of 1971 footage, at least from what I know.

Thanks for these. Is that your personal YT channel? If so, kudos. I've been a subscriber to that one for a year or two, have watched a small handful of games there. These All-Star games are better than today's AS games; guys are actually playing hard, interested in winning.
In more recent AS games, yeah, they're all phenomenal athletes and players, but it's like you're watching phenomenal athletes fool around in a driveway goof-off game at your friend's back-yard BBQ. This '69 AS game I found much more interesting (and the video [and audio] quality is fantastic for such an old game).

Anyway, I watched all of the '69 AS game; so far, my opinion on Gus Johnson is not particularly improved.
I'll give him this: he does seem to impede movement of his man on the perimeter somewhat [at least on the strong side]---though not to the degree we see Dave DeBusschere doing, and frequently Gus helps out hedging a penetrator [not his man] when he's adjacent. He does have a couple of nice blocks (one is that block which leads to a fast-break, it's in most of his highlight reels), and he came up with like 7 rebounds in limited minutes (though fwiw I do NOT see him boxing out with any consistency; rather he seems to get into a reasonable rebounding area and then rely on his strength and leaping ability to get boards).

But otherwise, my initial impression (that he gambles a lot) is so far being proven true. At one point in the first half (first video clip; sorry, I did not note the time-stamp in the video) he reaches for a steal, carrying over well into the back-court and causing a defensive break-down (as the offense then had a momentary 5-on-4).

At the 11:00 mark in the third video clip we see him gamble again on a reach, carrying himself out of the play; it's then the guy he'd been guarding (Rudy LaRusso) who ultimately gets the offensive rebound and scores (Gus Johnson no where to be seen in the frame, as he apparently made no attempt to recover his man or otherwise get back into the play on defense).

There were a couple spots in the first video clip where he looked a little lackadaisical getting back on transition D, too. There's one play where he's just marginally trailing the fast-break (I think it was Joe Caldwell pushing the ball up for the West), and Gus shows every appearance of stalking the play (you know, the way Lebron will sometimes stalk the fast-break ball-handler, waiting to take the shot away at the rim), and he has a clear path to do so. But he ultimately does nothing and allows the minimally contested score. idk, this is the All-Star game, so perhaps not the best means of evaluating something like that. It's entirely possible that Gus decided at the last second that he didn't want to risk hurting himself or others for an All-Star game. On the other hand [as I mentioned above], players in this era seem to give a damn about the outcome of an All-Star game (the effort, intensity, and emotion is most apparent in Jerry Sloan and Oscar Robertson).

Additionally, I can see at least a small tendency to lose track of his man off-ball when on the weak-side (because he's watching the ball too much, scouting for theft or block opportunities from the weak-side). Just as one example (there are others), check the 23:43 mark in the third video clip: he fully turns his back on Baylor for at least 4-5 seconds.

So idk; Gus appears like a bit of a double-edged sword on defense, if you catch my meaning.

And sort of non sequitur within this project, but I was not impressed with him on offense at all. He appears to want to shoot it almost every time he touches the ball, but he's only a mediocre shooter which he makes even worse by utterly atrocious shot-selection.
One other random observation: I never before noticed the weird component of Elgin Baylor's FT routine, where he glances at his left shoulder like 3-4 times before shooting.
Oh, and one more random observation: if anyone doubts Wilt Chamberlain's strength, check out the possession at 31:35 mark in the third clip--->Gus Johnson's just pushed his way thru a Chamberlain screen, when Wilt (apparently pissed about something, I think maybe Gus elbowed or swatted him in the groin??) grabs Gus Johnson with one arm and literally flings him out of the frame. Gus Johnson's a rather sturdy, strong-looking man in his own right; but this looks like a grown man tossing a child aside.

I'll try to get around to watching the '70 AS game, too.

Outstanding post, thanks for reply! it's not my channel, I don't upload full games but this channel is treasure for any NBA fan. I've been watching games for around year from him and he is still uploading new stuff.

Can't wait for your breakdown for 1970 ASG. Of course there is one regular game (actually half of the finals game) available with Gus. You've probably seen it already, Gus wasn't at his best anymore due to injuries but still was quite good player:

Watch on YouTube

[trex_8063]

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Draymond Green - 9
Kevin McHale - 2
Rasheed Wallace - 1

Dray takes this pretty comfortably, I'd say we can move on whenever you wish. 70sFan and I can continue our discussion of Gus Johnson in the next thread.