#7 Greatest Defensive C of all time: Top 10 Defensively at Each Position Project

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Unseld is in the 10-20 range. He's one of the best defensive centers of the 70's though the 70's were a pretty weak era overall.

Unseld can be the best non shot blocking defensive center ever but I would still have a problem putting him in my top 20 defensive centers list. Unseld and Cowens may have defended Kareem well by pushing Kareem but I still want the shot blocking for help defense.

[trex_8063]

Where would you people rate Wes Unseld?

Not in the top 10 for me. Off the top of my head, I'd guess I'd put him somewhere in the 12-18 range (not exactly sure where; and possibly even marginally lower).

With the six already in, the next two spots are very likely Ewing and Wallace, with KAJ coming right after them. One can make a case for KAJ higher, too; if people think only of old late-80's Laker Kareem, they're forgetting just how formidable a defensive center he was in his younger years, and really right into at least the early (if not mid) 80's. Then he transitioned into an average(ish) defensive center for a few years. He was only a weak(ish) defensive center for perhaps the last 2-3 years of his career, and even then he was never as poor as say.....Karl-Anthony Towns, imo.

So those three guys are #7-9, in some order.

After that, there's Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, Mark Eaton, Marcus Camby, Theo Ratliff, and probably at least 2-4 others for whom one can make a case over Unseld defensively.

[SkyHookFTW]

Damn, Ben's peak vs. Ewing's longevity. So close. I'm not going to wrangle too much over this. I said I had Ben 7# at the start and that is right about where he should be. Vote Ben Wallace.

[SkyHookFTW]

Where would you people rate Wes Unseld?

Not in the top 10 for me. Off the top of my head, I'd guess I'd put him somewhere in the 12-18 range (not exactly sure where; and possibly even marginally lower).

With the six already in, the next two spots are very likely Ewing and Wallace, with KAJ coming right after them. One can make a case for KAJ higher, too; if people think only of old late-80's Laker Kareem, they're forgetting just how formidable a defensive center he was in his younger years, and really right into at least the early (if not mid) 80's. Then he transitioned into an average(ish) defensive center for a few years. He was only a weak(ish) defensive center for perhaps the last 2-3 years of his career, and even then he was never as poor as say.....Karl-Anthony Towns, imo.

So those three guys are #7-9, in some order.

After that, there's Alonzo Mourning, Dwight Howard, Mark Eaton, Marcus Camby, Theo Ratliff, and probably at least 2-4 others for whom one can make a case over Unseld defensively.

I am taking a look at Theo for #10, glad someone else brought up

[FrogBros4Life]

As I mentioned in last thread, was re-watching G5 of the 1994 Knicks/Pacers series, and Ewing looks fantastic to me. I'll scout just a few plays in the early going to illustrate what I mean....

Great post, Trex. The vid you posted is a nice example of how defensive activity doesn't always show up in a box score, and Ewing was always extremely active on the defensive side of the ball. Wallace was an active defender as well, but I just don't think his defensive influence was as prominent all over the court in the same way that Ewing's was. I think Wallace simply "stood out" more on the court to those who were watching him play. With his hair, headband, and muscle man arm bands...he was almost like a WWF/WWE character. This doesn't take away from his impact (the same thing applies to someone like Rodman -- who actually had a wrestling career fwiw), but it does tend to shape our perceptions of a player in a way that goes beyond impact. We all remember Wallace as this great shot blocker, swatting everything that was put up at the rim, but every shot blocking metric we have rates Ewing ahead in that department. Where Wallace is really undervalued as a defender is as a ball thief. He was terrific at jumping the lanes, and even better at poking the ball away from behind after his man received the ball on a post up.

Wallace was a great reactionary defender, stopping plays while they were in motion. Ewing was a more mindful defender (great spatial awareness), better at preventing a play from ever gaining traction within the offense. Wallace's defense was like the other team hitting a roadblock. Ewing's defense would gum up the other team's engine. His impact was there, bubbling under the surface in ways that didn't automatically catch your eye like Wallace's.

Ewing was one of the best defensive players of all time at the college level, and some people are acting as if he somehow forgot how to play defense at the pro level, or at least became appreciably worse. I don't see that as being the case. Wallace's NBA defense actually reminds me a lot of how Ewing played defense at Georgetown, stylistically speaking. But NBA Ewing became a much smarter defender, even if he wasn't as explosive.

Vote: Ewing (Wallace gets my vote next round).

[cecilthesheep]

Where would you people rate Wes Unseld?

High teens, off the top of my head. Tough as nails, but the physical tools weren't great compared to a lot of these other guys, and he was never the best defender at his position or particularly close to it.

[cecilthesheep]

After some thought, I'll vote for Ben Wallace. Was close to going Ewing, but his longevity is not actually amazing in my mind. He remained a smart defender as he got older, but his mobility dropped off pretty quickly and stopped him from being really game-changing. Not that Wallace's longevity isn't worse, because it is, but his peak was so high that I have him just a bit ahead of Ewing still.

[Vladimir777]

As I mentioned in last thread, was re-watching G5 of the 1994 Knicks/Pacers series, and Ewing looks fantastic to me. I'll scout just a few plays in the early going to illustrate what I mean....

Great post, Trex. The vid you posted is a nice example of how defensive activity doesn't always show up in a box score, and Ewing was always extremely active on the defensive side of the ball. Wallace was an active defender as well, but I just don't think his defensive influence was as prominent all over the court in the same way that Ewing's was. I think Wallace simply "stood out" more on the court to those who were watching him play. With his hair, headband, and muscle man arm bands...he was almost like a WWF/WWE character. This doesn't take away from his impact (the same thing applies to someone like Rodman -- who actually had a wrestling career fwiw), but it does tend to shape our perceptions of a player in a way that goes beyond impact. We all remember Wallace as this great shot blocker, swatting everything that was put up at the rim, but every shot blocking metric we have rates Ewing ahead in that department. Where Wallace is really undervalued as a defender is as a ball thief. He was terrific at jumping the lanes, and even better at poking the ball away from behind after his man received the ball on a post up.

Wallace was a great reactionary defender, stopping plays while they were in motion. Ewing was a more mindful defender (great spatial awareness), better at preventing a play from ever gaining traction within the offense. Wallace's defense was like the other team hitting a roadblock. Ewing's defense would gum up the other team's engine. His impact was there, bubbling under the surface in ways that didn't automatically catch your eye like Wallace's.

Ewing was one of the best defensive players of all time at the college level, and some people are acting as if he somehow forgot how to play defense at the pro level, or at least became appreciably worse. I don't see that as being the case. Wallace's NBA defense actually reminds me a lot of how Ewing played defense at Georgetown, stylistically speaking. But NBA Ewing became a much smarter defender, even if he wasn't as explosive.

Vote: Ewing (Wallace gets my vote next round).

Just saying, I love your descriptive writing about the different defensive styles of Wallace and Ewing. I know these boards are stats-obsessed, but it can make for a little bit of dense reading sometimes when all people do is quote stats, so it’s nice to see posts like this once in a while!

[kendogg]

I'll throw out a semi hot take since not too much debating here. I think Alonzo is in the same tier as Ben with their peaks as short as they were. And that Kareem and Ewing are a tier above.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Patrick Ewing

Big Ben peaks higher, but the longevity advantage is too big for Ewing for me for still an elite defender.

I'm strongly against Camby getting consideration in the top 10, I probably wouldn't put him in the top 20 peaks personally. He is the definition of an empty stats shotblocker, his style of defense was to leave his position to get blocks, the same boxscore voters that gave Deandre 1st team All-D gave Camby his DPOY. He blocked so many shots that it was still positive impact and maybe the impact was there in regular season (his DRAPM is solid), but I certainly wouldn't trust him in a playoff series as much as the players who play a positionally sound, high IQ game. Bogut, M Gasol, Noah, Chandler, Gobert all peaked higher for me, although Camby has a case over a few due to longevity. Not even sure Camby was the best Nuggets defensive center of that era (Nene).

[trex_8063]

As I mentioned in last thread, was re-watching G5 of the 1994 Knicks/Pacers series, and Ewing looks fantastic to me. I'll scout just a few plays in the early going to illustrate what I mean....

Great post, Trex. The vid you posted is a nice example of how defensive activity doesn't always show up in a box score, and Ewing was always extremely active on the defensive side of the ball. Wallace was an active defender as well, but I just don't think his defensive influence was as prominent all over the court in the same way that Ewing's was. I think Wallace simply "stood out" more on the court to those who were watching him play. With his hair, headband, and muscle man arm bands...he was almost like a WWF/WWE character. This doesn't take away from his impact (the same thing applies to someone like Rodman -- who actually had a wrestling career fwiw), but it does tend to shape our perceptions of a player in a way that goes beyond impact. We all remember Wallace as this great shot blocker, swatting everything that was put up at the rim, but every shot blocking metric we have rates Ewing ahead in that department. Where Wallace is really undervalued as a defender is as a ball thief. He was terrific at jumping the lanes, and even better at poking the ball away from behind after his man received the ball on a post up.

Wallace was a great reactionary defender, stopping plays while they were in motion. Ewing was a more mindful defender (great spatial awareness), better at preventing a play from ever gaining traction within the offense. Wallace's defense was like the other team hitting a roadblock. Ewing's defense would gum up the other team's engine. His impact was there, bubbling under the surface in ways that didn't automatically catch your eye like Wallace's.

Ewing was one of the best defensive players of all time at the college level, and some people are acting as if he somehow forgot how to play defense at the pro level, or at least became appreciably worse. I don't see that as being the case. Wallace's NBA defense actually reminds me a lot of how Ewing played defense at Georgetown, stylistically speaking. But NBA Ewing became a much smarter defender, even if he wasn't as explosive.

Vote: Ewing (Wallace gets my vote next round).

Well put. This very nicely expresses what I see watching them too.

Ewing appears very aware of what's transpiring on the court, and uses his spatial awareness and intelligent positioning to "gum up" (to use your words) the works of opposing teams, essentially busting up a play before it ever has a chance [to use your words again] to "gain traction". This kind of defense is probably a bit less apparent to a casual viewer (occasionally even to a more studious fan).
Wallace appears a little less aware to me, and more reacts to situations as they're occurring, relying to some degree on his athleticism to throw up a road-block at the last possible second.

I can't say for certain if one style is more effective than the other, and perhaps I simply have a bias toward more "cerebral" defenders. But these observations are part of what makes me favor Ewing slightly (that and the longevity edge), as I can observe a more consistent play-to-play impact, even if Wallace does come up with more highlight reel plays.


My impression (at the time) was that Wallace was swatting away everything that came close to him during his prime. But I just looked, and his avg per 100 possessions from '01-'07 is 3.9 blk (same as '88-'97 Ewing), and his BLK% in that period is 5.4% ('88-'97 Ewing was 5.1%). So it's basically identical to Ewing's (which is notably behind guys like Robinson, Hakeem, and Dikembe).

You're right about him generating a fair number of turnovers. In the game I scouted, I noted he'd regularly take a poke at the ball from behind when his man received it in the post. The other thing he did a few times when being posted up is set up behind his man, wait until the entry pass is in the air, and then try to quickly slip around his man's shoulder to tip away the entry pass. Didn't always work, but often did.

[trex_8063]

I'll throw out a semi hot take since not too much debating here. I think Alonzo is in the same tier as Ben with their peaks as short as they were. And that Kareem and Ewing are a tier above.

I actually don't see this as much of a hot take. Zo's peak was fairly special; and with the longevity consideration, I don't see Ewing and Kareem ahead of Wallace as a particularly controversial stance either.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

.


My impression (at the time) was that Wallace was swatting away everything that came close to him during his prime. But I just looked, and his avg per 100 possessions from '01-'07 is 3.9 blk (same as '88-'97 Ewing), and his BLK% in that period is 5.4% ('88-'97 Ewing was 5.1%). So it's basically identical to Ewing's (which is notably behind guys like Robinson, Hakeem, and Dikembe).
.

I thought that with so many players driving to the rim during Ewing's career it would be easier to block more shots.
I checked. Stats did not really show Ewing's era getting more blocks after I adjusted for pace.

[bledredwine]

Vote Ben Wallace

[kendogg]

Stats did not really show Ewing's era getting more blocks after I adjusted for pace.

Interesting. I went and looked because I was curious too.

The most blocks relative to pace is:
1. 2001 - 5.3blk 91.3pac
2. 2002 - 5.2blk 90.7pac
3. 1992 - 5.5blk 96.6pac
4. 2004 - 5.1blk 90.1pac
5. 1998 - 5.1blk 90.3pac
6. 1999 - 5.0blk 88.9pac
7. 1995 - 5.2blk 92.9pac
8. 2012 - 5.1blk 91.3pac
9. 2000 - 5.2blk 93.1pac
10. 1996 - 5.1blk 91.8pac

In fact, the bottom of the list is more interesting, with 2014-2019 and the 70's years all at the bottom. Along with 2007, a year where Shaq played 40 games and marked the downfall of his career. He was traded the next season to PHX. Probably a lot of Shaq stoppers lost minutes that year. Also 2008 the following year, where teams were still probably had a lot of benched Shaq stoppers. (This is only from 1974 onward since blocks were recorded).

1. 1975
2. 1976
3. 1974
4. 1978
5. 1977
6. 2017
7. 2018
8. 2014
9. 2007
10. 2018
11. 2008

This tells me the league has gotten better at blocking shots over time, as the average player conditioning improves over eras. Seems reasonable. 2013 and onward is the 3-pt era, where pace started jumping back up and blocks stayed the same roughly.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #35:

Ben Wallace - 7 (Heej, HurricaneKid, pandrade83, SinceGatlingWasARookie, SkyHookFTW, cecilthesheep, bledredwine)
Patrick Ewing - 5 (KnickFan33, trex_8063, Narigo, FrogBros4Life, Dr Positivity)
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2 (Samurai, kendogg)

penbeast0 also indicated leaning Wallace, though didn't explicitly vote. Will call it for Big Ben; have the next up shortly.