Peaks project update: #1

[LA Bird]

So after all the discussion on the voting system for multiyear peaks, we are defaulting back to summing up all the season votes for a player? This is no different than what we had in the 2015 project.

And regardless of how ridiculous a vote is, I don't think the project chair should be interjecting in individual votes. Especially when it is about supporting a player that is in their username. No offense but if you can't be impartial, the running of the project should be left to the mods.

[Odinn21]

(Not a vote yet)

Think I'm gonna go with MJ/LeBron/big man (Shaq, TD, KG, Wilt, Kareem, etc), but no freaking idea of what year to use with James. Please, intelligent people, say intelligent stuff to help me.

I've always considered 2011-12 as LeBron's best season.

2012-13 season is a popular choice due to him leading his team to 66 wins and him missing out being the 1st ever unanimous MVP by just 1 vote. Also, DPoY race.

But there's one thing that stood out for me all this time; in 2012-13 season he actually couldn't elevate his level of play in the playoffs. And his team was 1 shot away from losing the title. This is certainly not a knock on LeBron, if Allen hadn't hit that shot people would not be considering that season ahead of 2011-12 for LeBron.

Also, quick look at numbers, for 2011-12 and 2012-13 comparison;
2012 RS: 27.1 ppg 7.9 rpg 6.2 apg 1.9 spg 0.8 bpg on .605 ts // 30.7 per - 0.298 ws/48 - 11.0 bpm - 29.9 eff - 0.796 eff/m
2012 PS: 30.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 5.6 apg 1.9 spg 0.7 bpg on .576 ts // 30.3 per - 0.284 ws/48 - 11.0 bpm - 31.1 eff - 0.728 eff/m

2013 RS: 26.8 ppg 8.0 rpg 7.3 apg 1.7 spg 0.9 bpg on .640 ts // 31.6 per - 0.322 ws/48 - 11.6 bpm - 32.2 eff - 0.850 eff/m
2013 PS: 25.9 ppg 8.4 rpg 6.6 apg 1.8 spg 0.8 bpg on .585 ts // 28.1 per - 0.260 ws/48 - 10.2 bpm - 29.2 eff - 0.699 eff/m

If you look at this image, you'll see how his 2013 playoffs were rather average ( https://i.imgur.com/CV9LPfb.jpg ) . On far left, you can see his effect on his team was identically the same in 2012 and 2013 regular seasons. And his 2012 playoffs stands out way more than 2013 playoffs.

I don't consider his 2008-09 season as his peak, not even as a major candidate because he had the numbers and as a player he was great but he didn't have that force in himself yet. I've always thought that if you put any version of him 2012 and onwards, the Cavs would have a bigger chance at getting to the NBA Finals even though he didn't have that kind of numbers. That's why I'm not so big on his 2009 campaign.
As for 2016, 2017 and 2018. He was Jordan-esque in the playoffs, sure. But it's hard for me to consider regular season performances lightly. 2016 is the best choice for 2nd stint. In 2017 and 2018, the Cavs won 51 and 50 games with LBJ.

[Gibson22]

Yeah yeah whatever. I ran the defensive project (with a huge help by trex) and everything was cool. You guys were there. Sometimes you gotta do what I'm doing here. Plus its not about me accepting or not accepting stuff, its not like I wont count votes without lebron in the top 3. Id like to, but I wont do that. But I just know how those things go. Do what you want based on this. I'm not the one who benefits from this project. Like, at all. If you can't stand that I'm gonna say that certain takes are unacceptable, react accordingly. But maybe you'll understand that this behaviour is needed and the best that you can have

[Gibson22]

I won't Interfere (I wont literally write a post for the next 24 hours). When I come back I'll see how it is going. Don't mind me in your votings.

[Odinn21]

Yeah yeah whatever. I ran the defensive project (with a huge help by trex) and everything was cool. You guys were there. Sometimes you gotta do what I'm doing here. Plus its not about me accepting or not accepting stuff, its not like I wont count votes without lebron in the top 3. Id like to, but I wont do that. But I just know how those things go. Do what you want based on this. I'm not the one who benefits from this project. Like, at all. If you can't stand that I'm gonna say that certain takes are unacceptable, react accordingly. But maybe you'll understand that this behaviour is needed and the best that you can have

A medium sized LOL at the bolded part and thanks for the underlined part for making it clear for me. I'll just continue by reading if this things goes on.

That vote with Kobe homerism didn't include Mike as well. Not just LeBron. And you going on with your own homerism didn't help the situation. Hopefully you get this.

Don't count my vote. I'm not deleting my posts, if someone wants to see a different opinion/thought.

Have a nice project.

[Homer38]

(Not a vote yet)

Think I'm gonna go with MJ/LeBron/big man (Shaq, TD, KG, Wilt, Kareem, etc), but no freaking idea of what year to use with James. Please, intelligent people, say intelligent stuff to help me.

I've always considered 2011-12 as LeBron's best season.

2012-13 season is a popular choice due to him leading his team to 66 wins and him missing out being the 1st ever unanimous MVP by just 1 vote. Also, DPoY race.

But there's one thing that stood out for me all this time; in 2012-13 season he actually couldn't elevate his level of play in the playoffs. And his team was 1 shot away from losing the title. This is certainly not a knock on LeBron, if Allen hadn't hit that shot people would not be considering that season ahead of 2011-12 for LeBron.

Also, quick look at numbers, for 2011-12 and 2012-13 comparison;
2012 RS: 27.1 ppg 7.9 rpg 6.2 apg 1.9 spg 0.8 bpg on .605 ts // 30.7 per - 0.298 ws/48 - 11.0 bpm - 29.9 eff - 0.796 eff/m
2012 PS: 30.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 5.6 apg 1.9 spg 0.7 bpg on .576 ts // 30.3 per - 0.284 ws/48 - 11.0 bpm - 31.1 eff - 0.728 eff/m

2013 RS: 26.8 ppg 8.0 rpg 7.3 apg 1.7 spg 0.9 bpg on .640 ts // 31.6 per - 0.322 ws/48 - 11.6 bpm - 32.2 eff - 0.850 eff/m
2013 PS: 25.9 ppg 8.4 rpg 6.6 apg 1.8 spg 0.8 bpg on .585 ts // 28.1 per - 0.260 ws/48 - 10.2 bpm - 29.2 eff - 0.699 eff/m

If you look at this image, you'll see how his 2013 playoffs were rather average ( https://i.imgur.com/CV9LPfb.jpg ) . On far left, you can see his effect on his team was identically the same in 2012 and 2013 regular seasons. And his 2012 playoffs stands out way more than 2013 playoffs.

I don't consider his 2008-09 season as his peak, not even as a major candidate because he had the numbers and as a player he was great but he didn't have that force in himself yet. I've always thought that if you put any version of him 2012 and onwards, the Cavs would have a bigger chance at getting to the NBA Finals even though he didn't have that kind of numbers. That's why I'm not so big on his 2009 campaign.
As for 2016, 2017 and 2018. He was Jordan-esque in the playoffs, sure. But it's hard for me to consider regular season performances lightly. 2016 is the best choice for 2nd stint. In 2017 and 2018, the Cavs won 51 and 50 games with LBJ.

The 2012 season by LeBron is very underrated, I do not know why (maybe because of the lockout), but he had an all-time great playoff run, especially when the heat had a must win game ... of course the game 6 in Boston was incredible, but the game 4 against Indiana was also great after the heat was down 2-1 in the series.

But for 2013, it's true that LBJ was not as great as he was in the playoffs in 2012, but Wade was not the same player he was in the regular season or even in the playoffs the year before ...

It really hurt the heat ... Also the heat was awful in the rebounds and Bosh could not defend Hibbert in the ECF to save his life .... Duncan also had 25 points in the first half in game 6 ...

[_Game7_]

So after all the discussion on the voting system for multiyear peaks, we are defaulting back to summing up all the season votes for a player? This is no different than what we had in the 2015 project.

And regardless of how ridiculous a vote is, I don't think the project chair should be interjecting in individual votes. Especially when it is about supporting a player that is in their username. No offense but if you can't be impartial, the running of the project should be left to the mods.

Yea I get his reasoning but still seems biased. He should stay out of people's votes, its just respectful.

[_Game7_]

2016 Lebron James- Not his best regular season but he absolutely dominated the playoffs, namely the finals.

Back to back 40pt games when his team needed him the most. The best defensive play of all time with the block on Iggy in game 7. This is the best peak of all time.
91 MJ
03 Duncan

[Joey Wheeler]

Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?

Miss me with that. I'm not down to run this if I gotta see kobe at #3 all time (over Jordan and lbj) and that type of stuff. Its important to clear this up before we go. No biased/hippie/alternative/dumb/nostalgic takes here. Your vote fits those categories easily. This applies to not having lebron in a top 3 peak seasons too but Ima let that go. Sorry to hurt your feelings but.
Btw I have set expectations because the vast majority of things about basketball are known and accepted. If you think that kobe 05-06 is better than every version of Jordan and lebron, you are wrong. If you think that KG Played the goat season (I purposedly chose a forum darling with a great peak) you are wrong, and not only that, I think you are at fault for not Being super-partes, be it because you are Biased or because you like hippie takes

If you just want the results and every vote to reflect what's 'known and accepted' why run this project at all? Just call Jordan an invincible deity and wrap it up since that's the prevalent narrative.

If you want to gauge what this forum's views are, that entails accepting the opinions of its members, however "stupid" they might seem to you.

[E-Balla]

So after all the discussion on the voting system for multiyear peaks, we are defaulting back to summing up all the season votes for a player? This is no different than what we had in the 2015 project.

And regardless of how ridiculous a vote is, I don't think the project chair should be interjecting in individual votes. Especially when it is about supporting a player that is in their username. No offense but if you can't be impartial, the running of the project should be left to the mods.

Good eye because I didn't even read the OP because I didn't think we'd default to a system everyone seemed to agree wasn't up to snuff. The only thing we were on a out was how to weigh 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, everything else should've been set in stone.

If we had our proposed system there'd be no need to exclude the few odd votes there were bound to be, LeBron would make up for it on other ballots. Jordan was missing from that ballot too so it's not like his competition is benefitting from that post (which I noticed was all Laker technically).

[Gibson22]

So after all the discussion on the voting system for multiyear peaks, we are defaulting back to summing up all the season votes for a player? This is no different than what we had in the 2015 project.

And regardless of how ridiculous a vote is, I don't think the project chair should be interjecting in individual votes. Especially when it is about supporting a player that is in their username. No offense but if you can't be impartial, the running of the project should be left to the mods.

Good eye because I didn't even read the OP because I didn't think we'd default to a system everyone seemed to agree wasn't up to snuff. The only thing we were on a out was how to weigh 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, everything else should've been set in stone.

If we had our proposed system there'd be no need to exclude the few odd votes there were bound to be, LeBron would make up for it on other ballots. Jordan was missing from that ballot too so it's not like his competition is benefitting from that post (which I noticed was all Laker technically).

I don't understand. How is the system different from the one that you guys proposed?

[E-Balla]

So after all the discussion on the voting system for multiyear peaks, we are defaulting back to summing up all the season votes for a player? This is no different than what we had in the 2015 project.

And regardless of how ridiculous a vote is, I don't think the project chair should be interjecting in individual votes. Especially when it is about supporting a player that is in their username. No offense but if you can't be impartial, the running of the project should be left to the mods.

Good eye because I didn't even read the OP because I didn't think we'd default to a system everyone seemed to agree wasn't up to snuff. The only thing we were on a out was how to weigh 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, everything else should've been set in stone.

If we had our proposed system there'd be no need to exclude the few odd votes there were bound to be, LeBron would make up for it on other ballots. Jordan was missing from that ballot too so it's not like his competition is benefitting from that post (which I noticed was all Laker technically).

I don't understand. How is the system different from the one that you guys proposed?

You're counting votes for different years as the same vote. They aren't. I put 90 and 91 MJ on my list that shouldn't be 2 votes for MJ or everyone would just spam 3 seasons of who they want on. Seasons should be counted separately.

[Timmyyy]

Ok come on, I will give my vote and worry about the rest later.

Really love to see Timmy getting that much love from Colbinii, great write up. I think he is underappreciated for peak even though he doesn't make my first ballot.

I think at the top it is just so crowded but I have the feeling that there are two guys looking a small step ahead at their absolute best. These guys are Lebron and MJ for me. I used to have Shaq in this group too until yesterday but had the feeling I might have overlooked something when I evaluated him. With my new analysis he might be closer to the Kareem Russell TD Wilt Hakeem group.

Lebron just had a phenomenal impact on the game in his peak years and we have the RAPM data to support that claim. Comparing it to the other contenders we have the data of it seems that he was the guy that had the best RAPM values no matter what data set or year of his peak contenders you are looking at. The only other guys that have somewhat comparable years are only Duncan, KG and Shaq at their perceived peak for only one data set I have each. It shows to me that from a pure +/- standpoint his peak is comfortably above everybody in the RAPM era.
Comparing him to Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and Russell is tougher but knowing what I know I have Lebron as the clearly best offensive player of the bunch with a pretty big margin (coming from an impact POV not boxscore). Sure all these guys have a big gap on defense too but looking at his defensive impact he always was somewhat of a +2-+3 at his peak and I don't think anybody can beat that combined with a contender for best offensive player ever.

MJ is in a similar boat. Looking how the Bulls in 91 did I can't help but think that their ATG offense was driven to an insane level by MJ especially since he upped his game in the PO and the offense became even better. Their defense was great too and while I see MJ as 'only' a perimeter defender he was a really important part to that D. Have a hard time seeing anyone having that great impact except Lebron.

Spoiler:

On that last spot I wasn't quite sure. I thought Shaq but saw that I maybe had a misconception on his D that year. I mean in the RS his D was low level DPOY candidate. In the PO's on the other hand the Lakers D was seriously bad. The fall is so significant that I can't get my head around other than that the defensive anchor played a lot worse (I think the eye test might not agree with a lot but his intensity seemed a little lower because of the concentration on offense). TD and Kareem seem close to me. Russell and Wilt too.

Finally my ballot:

1. Lebron 2009: Over MJ because I have MJ as the slightly better offensive player and Lebron as the better defender by a little more because he was able to act as a secondary rim protector or even primary rim protector in a shared role.


2. MJ 1991: Explanaition why I have him above the rest is above.

3. Shaq 2000: Still went with him. In my opinion the best offensive big by a rather clear margin and in this year his D was on a great level. The other guys have a huge margin on D too but offensively I see it a little bigger.

EDIT to change my 3rd place vote:

3. Duncan 2003: I gave my thought on that in a later post. We have the RAPM data of both Duncan and Shaq. Both seem to be the clear best player in the league and both have one data set were they completely crush the lead and look even comparable to Lebron peak years (Engelmann 2003 multiyear for Duncan and acrossthecourt 2000 PI for Shaq). Very comparable. But for me it comes down to the fact that Shaq didn't seem to keep up his defensive impact in the PO's because the Lakers D took a huge dip. Duncan on the other hand remained his defensive impact in a way that the gap became huge in the PO's and the offensive gap since both elevated their games roughly stayed the same. So I give RS slightly to Shaq and PO's slightly to Duncan with a tiny little bigger gap. Why not Kareem? Not quite sure. I compared Kareem and Duncan with Shaq and thought all 3 are as close as it gets. I just think Kareem and Shaq are so comparable with their offensive and defensive impact split they might be even closer to each, resulting in a situation where if I have Duncan above Shaq, I think I should also have Duncan above Kareem.
But to be honest between these three guys, to me it is more or less a draw and I don't think I will ever be 100% confident with it.

Edit for new voting system. Still spoilering my previous thoughts for later discussion.

General thoughts of the competition and why I see 2 guys in front are above.

Hopefully my final ballot:

1. Lebron 2009

2. Lebron 2012

3. Lebron 2016

Why so much Lebron seasons over MJ? Because all these three seasons look like they are on the exact same level and I see Lebrons peak impact as slightly higher than MJs.
MJ is the slightly better offensive player for me because he is better off ball player and scorer overall whereas Lebron is the better playmaker. Both for me offensive GOAT candidates but give me MJ slightly.
On defense MJ was a great perimeter defender maybe one of the best ever BUT he was just that a perimeter defender. Lebron might have been worse as a pure perimeter defender but he also had a great impact on the inside as a help defender and even as a rim protector at times. When you look at 09 Cleveland, 12 Miami and 16 Cleveland, he was either a secondary defensive anchor or a primary anchor in a shared role on all of these teams. That boosts your defensive impact to a degree that can't be reached with pure perimeter defense.
In the end I consider the defensive gap a little bigger that the offensive one that's why I have him above.
To quantify it a little, according to Engelmanns multiyear and PI RAPM data for these years Lebron in all these years seems to be in the 6-6.5 ORAPM and 2.5-3 DRAPM range. If I would have to give my feeling about MJ I would go with 7-7.5 ORAPM and 1.5-2 DRAPM on the same scale. You see the range of total RAPM is actually the same but I believe Jordan to be a little on the lower side of what I took as range and therefor being a bit worse. But it also shows that they are so close that I have no problem with Jordan above Lebron either even with multiple years. But gun to my head I am confident with that choice.
Michael in 1991 would follow right after these 3 Lebron years and might have multiple years too until Lebron in 13, 17, 10, 14 would follow.

Little side note: RAPM is showing Lebron 2013 as a clear step below these other years defensively already. Wasn't really aware of that and didn't notice it at the time. Always thought that 14 was the first year he took step back in that regard.

A little extra explanaition for my choices is that I don't put too much stock in small differences between years of the same player and Lebrons RAPM these years is a pretty good indicator and hint to this. I believe players have multiple years with their peak level play and impact and only small differences in season outcome or boxscore are building the perception of differences. I believe these smaller differences to be mostly luck driven or random stuff and because of that mostly irrelevant.

[Joey Wheeler]

I don't even know if my vote counts for this since I was not involved in prior discussion of this project. In any case, I'll leave my top 3 anyway:

1-Larry Bird 1986 - Bird is imo the best offensive player of all-time and 1986 was his best season, statistically so as well: elite scoring from anywhere on the court (50% from 2, 40% from 3, 90% from the free throw line in both RS and PS) elite passing and court vision/awareness and basketball IQ. He made even marginal players look great on the court by always putting them in the best position to succeed.

In terms of raw stats, Bird's numbers don't really hold up compared to some other top tier guys (like Jordan and Lebron), but the reason why he had such a massive impact on winning (dynastic Boston were terrible before he joined and whenever he was off the court or injured) is that he could dominate the game while not dominating the ball, he always had a very low usage rate for a superstar player. His basketball IQ, versatility of skills and unselfishness allowed him to be his most impactful self while allowing everyone around him to flourish as well. I don't think Bird is the most dominant in an ideal situation, that'd be Jordan for me, but imo Bird is the one whose game translates better across different situations. I honestly believe you could put him with any supporting cast in NBA history and that team will be in a position to win 50+ games if not contend, simply because marginal talent won't look so marginal with Bird at the helm, he will get his numbers while putting those around him in the best positions to succeed too. And when I mean any supporting cast, I mean it doesn't matter what type of players he has around him (not just level) since his versatility of skills and IQ will ensure he fits in any context. For what it's worth, I think his game would translate even better to the modern era as his historic shooting was not really used to anywhere near its full potential since teams and coaches didn't value the 3 back then and the focus was on scoring in the paint. Bird with green light to shoot 3s is a clear cut best offensive player ever imo.

I should touch on defense too. He was a positive on that end, though not dominant. Don't think any of the best offensive guys are better than him on that end by a significant margin though.

2-Michael Jordan 1990 - Insanely dominant scoring, playmaking, motor, excellent defense too. He was a force of nature. His 3pt shot could be considered a weakness, but he was so quick, agile, strong... that he could get to wherever he wanted on the court anyway. He'd the guy I peaked if my criterion was "who's the most dominant if they have an ideal team built around them?".

3-Lebron James 2009 - He's the most dominant individual basketball force of all-time. What if peak Westbrook (who I have very high or higher than most on this list) was 6'8, hyper efficient and had elite basketball IQ? That's basically 2009 Lebron. I could see a case for him at #1, honestly the difference between the top ~10-15 seasons ever are pretty small so order is mostly down to personal preference/criteria, I just feel Jordan and Bird at their peak are who I'd pick if I had the chance from a maximizing chances of team success perspective.

[euroleague]

Yeah yeah whatever. I ran the defensive project (with a huge help by trex) and everything was cool. You guys were there. Sometimes you gotta do what I'm doing here. Plus its not about me accepting or not accepting stuff, its not like I wont count votes without lebron in the top 3. Id like to, but I wont do that. But I just know how those things go. Do what you want based on this. I'm not the one who benefits from this project. Like, at all. If you can't stand that I'm gonna say that certain takes are unacceptable, react accordingly. But maybe you'll understand that this behaviour is needed and the best that you can have

If you only accept takes in accordance with your own views, this project is a giant waste of time. I don’t think Lebron has a locked-in case for the top 3.

Wilt, Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Bird

Those are my top 5.

Wilt 62 - is pretty self-explanatory. 50/25, elite defense, unstoppable, 4000 minutes played, wrote the record book in one year

Will add more on my top 5 later

[euroleague]

If votes are separate
Wilt 62
Wilt 67
Shaq 00/Wilt 64

My top 3

[Colbinii]

Yeah yeah whatever. I ran the defensive project (with a huge help by trex) and everything was cool. You guys were there. Sometimes you gotta do what I'm doing here. Plus its not about me accepting or not accepting stuff, its not like I wont count votes without lebron in the top 3. Id like to, but I wont do that. But I just know how those things go. Do what you want based on this. I'm not the one who benefits from this project. Like, at all. If you can't stand that I'm gonna say that certain takes are unacceptable, react accordingly. But maybe you'll understand that this behaviour is needed and the best that you can have

You need to be able to separate your own views [specifically emotions] from the actual discussion.

You disagreed with Kobe being top 3 [As does 99% of this board]. Rather than throwing a temper tantrum and letting your emotions speak you should calm yourself before posting and identify a way to attack the post, not the poster. Ballhogger is a known Kobe Stan like An Unbiased Fan, given that you should find a statistical argument to call in question the person's view point.

The result of calling in questions a persons opinion is 2-fold:
1) The poster defends their position by providing more context with a more thorough explanation...

2) You gain more knowledge into why a poster has a view point and perhaps can adjust your own views accordingly.

For the record, you cant say "You would like to not count votes for Lebron". It comes off as childish and makes you and the entire project look poorly as it's a reflection of you and the projects origin.

Ultimately there will be people who don't see eye to eye with you on LeBron, don't see eye to eye with BallHogger on Kobe and don't see eye to eye with Euroleague on Wilt.
That is the entire point of this project though, no?

Perhaps we should all be evaluating why we are here and what we are doing with this project.

I for one am here to gain informative insights on players throughout NBA history. I have my own biases [Just kidding, I'm perfect!] and would like to see how others view things. If there is a view point I cant agree with under any circumstance [Kobe being a top 3 peak, for example] I do my best to put up an obvious counter example and then move on from the discussion while removing myself from further discussion on the topic.

It does appear that all this project is at the moment is a Polling of who the best peaks are which is unfortunate as good discussion hasn't been at the Helm of the bulk of the posts here.

[Vladimir777]

Can’t wait for this! Thanks for including me in the OP, but I definitely don’t know enough to give a good vote. Can’t wait to see the results.

[Vladimir777]

Yeah yeah whatever. I ran the defensive project (with a huge help by trex) and everything was cool. You guys were there. Sometimes you gotta do what I'm doing here. Plus its not about me accepting or not accepting stuff, its not like I wont count votes without lebron in the top 3. Id like to, but I wont do that. But I just know how those things go. Do what you want based on this. I'm not the one who benefits from this project. Like, at all. If you can't stand that I'm gonna say that certain takes are unacceptable, react accordingly. But maybe you'll understand that this behaviour is needed and the best that you can have

You need to be able to separate your own views [specifically emotions] from the actual discussion.

You disagreed with Kobe being top 3 [As does 99% of this board]. Rather than throwing a temper tantrum and letting your emotions speak you should calm yourself before posting and identify a way to attack the post, not the poster. Ballhogger is a known Kobe Stan like An Unbiased Fan, given that you should find a statistical argument to call in question the person's view point.

The result of calling in questions a persons opinion is 2-fold:
1) The poster defends their position by providing more context with a more thorough explanation...

2) You gain more knowledge into why a poster has a view point and perhaps can adjust your own views accordingly.

For the record, you cant say "You would like to not count votes for Lebron". It comes off as childish and makes you and the entire project look poorly as it's a reflection of you and the projects origin.

Ultimately there will be people who don't see eye to eye with you on LeBron, don't see eye to eye with BallHogger on Kobe and don't see eye to eye with Euroleague on Wilt.
That is the entire point of this project though, no?

Perhaps we should all be evaluating why we are here and what we are doing with this project.

I for one am here to gain informative insights on players throughout NBA history. I have my own biases [Just kidding, I'm perfect!] and would like to see how others view things. If there is a view point I cant agree with under any circumstance [Kobe being a top 3 peak, for example] I do my best to put up an obvious counter example and then move on from the discussion while removing myself from further discussion on the topic.

It does appear that all this project is at the moment is a Polling of who the best peaks are which is unfortunate as good discussion hasn't been at the Helm of the bulk of the posts here.

Hell of a post!

To be honest, I was shocked to see that the person running the poll was questioning people’s votes, and then saying they’d like to not count votes if a certain player wasn’t picked. That’s kind of...unexpected.

Colbinii just put my thoughts into words much more eloquently than I could.

Something about writing on a phone leaves me feeling almost hopelessly ineloquent.

[Gregoire]

Hello! Im non-native English speaker, I'm not that good on writing texts. But I can engage in the conversation quite nicely.
Anyways:

1st ballot vote: 1990-91 Michael Jordan
2nd ballot vote: 2012-2013 Lebron James
3rd ballot vote: 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal


1. Jordan 1990-91
Positives:
- Best volume scorer and most efficient (TS) one , so best scorer overall, most versatile scorer
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player (along with Lebron)
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one, best man defender of the four
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, will to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (best of the four and maybe the best ever)
Negatives:
- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shoot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmentality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates

2. Lebron 2012-2013
Positives:
- Great playmaker, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Best passer and most willing one
- Most versatile defender
- Best in transition offense ( maybe Jordan is close), best transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Great “team” player, became not ball-dominant
- Most versatile overall offensive player
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability
Negatives:
- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Least dominant scorer in my top-5
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

3. Shaq 1999-2000.
Positives:
- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 (in the post), huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field) and good passer with less TO than most other centers
- Draw most doubles, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post
Negatives:
- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-Shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups, clear worst defender than top centers. Questionable about who was better defender between him and Lebron
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

EDIT:
I just realised, that we could vote for the same player. In these case I edit my vote:
1st ballot vote: 1990-91 Michael Jordan
2nd ballot vote: 1989-90 Michael Jordan
3rd ballot vote:2012-2013 Lebron James