Peaks project update: #5

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 77 Kareem

I went back and forth between 71 and 77 for a while here. Part of me still wants to go with 71. However, my picking of 77 is 2 pronged:

- A player’s peak doesn’t necessarily have to come in a championship year
- 77 is post merger, which many feel increased the competition in the league

Using trex and bball ref’s per 100 #s, let’s look at 71 vs. 77:

71: 34.4 PPG, 16.9 RPG, 3.5 APG, +10.57% rTS
77: 32.7 PPG, 16.6 RPG, 4.8 APG, +9.7% rTS

On top of being incredible #s on their own, we see kareem performed about as well in 77 as he did in 71. This also included an excellent playoff performance with the following (keeping with per 100 here to be consistent):

37.8 PPG, 19.4 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.9 SPG, 3.8 BPG, 64.6% TS, .332 WS/48

His postseason would end in a sweep to the eventual champion blazers, who ranked 1st in SRS that season and 5th in defense. To say their front line of walton and lucas was solid would be a real understatement. They rounded out the roster with key guys like lionel hollins, bob gross and johnny davis. Outside of cazzie russell and lucius allen, the lakers roster was pretty bare. I’d say they performed to about as well as expected that season.

77 was his 5th MVP season, so it’s reasonable to say that kareem had reached his peak in terms of developing his game on both ends of the floor.

Some footage of kareem from 77

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Ballot #2 - 03 Duncan

We sorta forget that Mr. Consistency was a really dominant player who played major minutes at his best. An excellent regular season topped of by a stellar championship run makes him more than deserving.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2003-nba-finals-nets-vs-spurs.html

Ballot #3 - 87 Magic

Magic was a unique and special player. Took his game to another level that season, especially when relied on more as a primary offensive option. He led the lakers to league best 67-15 record and ultimately the championship against the celtics.

RS - 23.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .5 BPG, 60.2% TS, 124 ORTG, .263 WS/48

PS - 21.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .4 BPG, 60.2% TS, 129 ORTG, .265 WS/48

[cecilthesheep]

hey, so I know I'm super late and i apologize if i'm asking for something we don't normally do around here, but is it too late for me to join this? I haven't posted a ton recently, but I was a regular contributor to the top-10 defensive at each position project, and I'd love to be part of this one.

[Samurai]

1. 71 Kareem
2. 77 Kareem
3. 93 Hakeem

[ThaRegul8r]

Hakeem in 94 is usually the other year mentioned with Duncan in 03 but I feel a lot of the credit given to the 94 postseason run is really credit being given to the 95 postseason run (which is Hakeem's best IMO).

Well, people conflate the two in that, after the passage of time, people talk about Hakeem in '94 the way people were actually talking about Hakeem in '95:

If the championship of last year sometimes looked as if it were bought with inflated dollars -- Michael Jordan had retired, the Rockets rolled down an easier path to the Finals when the No. 1-seeded Seattle SuperSonics were eliminated in the first round by the Denver Nuggets -- this year's trip to the Finals against the Eastern Conference champion Orlando Magic did not come cheap. Lacking a proven power forward (last season's starter at that position, Otis Thorpe, was traded in February to the Portland Trail Blazers for Drexler, and Thorpe's backup, Carl Herrera, is out with a shoulder injury) and usually playing no more than nine people, the Rockets have had to lean even more heavily on their superstar. Take away Olajuwon and his playoff-leading 33.0 average, and the big basketball news in Houston would be the interviews with potential lottery picks. Put him on the court, and the city goes borderline wacky, certainly wackier even than last year, people talking Rockets, Rockets, nothing but Rockets.

The credit that Olajuwon has never received, not even with a championship and an MVP award last year, has begun to arrive in a hurry. He is now doing the postseason stuff of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and Jordan and Bill Russell. Maybe, hard though it may be to believe, he is doing even more. Did any of them have to perform with such a nondescript cast? Perhaps the better comparisons for his postseason transcendence come from other sports: Olajuwon is more like Bob Gibson hurling the St. Louis Cardinals to World Series championships, Reggie Jackson in various October settings, Joe Montana in those Super Bowls, Wayne Gretzky on one of those Stanley Cup runs in Edmonton, suddenly everywhere all at once, controlling the entire drama.

ORLANDO — It’s easier to explain rocket science this morning than how the Houston Rockets will win back-to-back NBA titles.

Less messy, too.

But after Houston’s 117-106 win against Orlando Friday put the Rockets up 2-0 in the NBA Finals, the curtain began rising and debate began starting on why the Rockets are again the team no one could beat.

Most theories center on Team Chemistry. That’s usually the case when there’s little Team Biology.

Based on talent alone, Houston doesn’t even rank among the top five teams in the league. There’s Phoenix. Seattle. Chicago (when Michael Jordan returned). San Antonio (when Dennis Rodman played). Orlando is in this elite group, of course, and then way down there, somewhere among the Utahs and Indianas, sits Houston.

The Rockets have no power forward. They have no point guard to speak of unless the subject is Anfernee Hardaway’s highlight film. Houston starts Kenny Smith and Mario Elie because the rules say they must start five.

I mean, who else is there? Look at the bench. Sam Cassell aside, it’s strictly practice fodder, guys who carry shovels behind the elephants.

The Rockets’ big trade got nationally lampooned this season, their lineup wasn’t set until three games ago – yes, Game 5 of the San Antonio series – and their coach still remains known more for having his face punched out by Kermit Washington.

Oh, one more thing:

Houston has Hakeem Olajuwon and no one else does.

Those are the kinds of things that were actually being said at the time. But decades later, internet posters talk about '94 as the carry job. That's why it's interesting to keep track of things as they happen, and then watch how people talk about it years later after time has fogged the memory.

[Dr Positivity]

1. 77 Kareem
2. 72 Kareem
3. 71 Kareem

I'm going Kareem here - he's a GOAT candidate and has both all time scoring at center with elite level passing and defense. 77 makes sense with his experience

[Blackmill]

I see a cluster of five very deserving candidates right now: Kareem, Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem and Russell (and Shaq and Wilt but those are gone now).

1. 2003 Tim Duncan
About as good as the #2 here (having less "small things" on O, but also more proven and resilient scoring). Good defensive cast, but the ability to crack a #7 offense nearly out of thin air (lacking on offense) is ultra rare for a player as good on defense as Duncan was. As we all know, he exploded on the post-season, confirming the scoring advantage and leading him past...

2. 2004 Kevin Garnett
Heeeere we go again. With a worse cast than his competition (we've already discussed this ad nauseam, feel free to disagree), led the 2nd best team by SRS and only fell (in a close series) on the WCF when his AS-level #2 got injured. That 24.9 (+3 rTS%) / 14.3 / 5.1 / 1.5 / 2.3 statline per 75 is absurd, and you've got to note that it is the best year, period, by Engelmann's PI RAPM dataset, peaking at +10 (about 1 point better than 03 Duncan, 1.5 points better than 00 Shaq, around 1 point better than multiple LeBron years).

3. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
More knowledgable posters than me think this is his best year, and I'm not a big KAJ watcher so I'm gonna trust them on this. He went nuclear on those Warriors and Blazers but ultimately his team wasn't enough to get past the eventual champions. Some would think Kareem's (relative) shortcomings on creation meant his overmatched guards couldn't manage the creation load BUT 1) it would be kinda like shifting the blame of that loss to him, which is absurd 2) you could make a similar case to KG in regards to high-profile scoring (> 27 ppg kind of scoring) — both being unfair. I would only consider that creation shortcoming as a kind of tie-breaker between elite tier peaks, such as here. Contrarily to Duncan, his (in this case easily) stronger scoring is now countered with stronger defense, plus the other little advantages.

Not other KAJ years because: haven't seen that much year-specific film of him (pending since 2016).
Not Hakeem because: don't think he meshed hsi peak O and D together.
Not Russell because: not adjusting that much for era, although he has a clear #1 case if you go by pure era impact

Nice post. A few things I'd comment on.

About the Lakers losing in the 1977 playoffs. It's more complicated than Kareem lacking the creation of a guard.

In transition and early offense, the Lakers were burdened by poor shot selection, with Allen and Tatum often taking contested and wildly off balance jumpers, rather than press the advantage or let the play develop. In the half court, there were a variety of significant issues. The Lakers too often had multiple cutters entering the lane at once. The resulting congestion blocked passing angles and turned otherwise good shots into poor ones. The Lakers didn't have a frequently used set in which a guard received a screen. Something like this wasn't part of the playbook but would have really helped. Specifically on Kareem's creation, it actually was significant, especially for his position. There were limited options due to a lack of shooters and poor spacing, but he created many off ball advantages throughout games, as teams would front or shadow him. I don't think Kareem was a different playmaker in 1977 than in 1980, when Bill Russell dubbed him the best playmaking center in the league, he just had fewer options.

As big a reason why the Lakers lost in the playoffs, though, was their defense. Here's a quick view of the Lakers defense without Kareem.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

22:23, Kareem leaves the game for his first rest. Tatum makes absolutely zero attempt to guard his man, Dudley waltzes past him, and Abernathy (Kareem's replacement) shows no awareness of what is happening.
24:40, After a commercial break, the Lakers are confused on who is guarding who. Russell doesn't do a great job at guarding Barry, but the fault is really on Tatum who leaves his man open under the basket to double team, and Abernathy who again is a statue.
25:05, Russell can't defend without fouling.
25:30, Allen loses track of his man, who cuts across the lane, and is rewarded with an open jumper.

This was typical Lakers defense without Kareem. Significant defensive breakdown possession after possession. It's even worse in the Blazers series. Kareem was much better defensively in 1977 than in 1980. He repositioned in anticipation of cutters and drives, made multiple effort plays, and was more than willing to switch on the PnR. As a result, the Lakers stopped giving up so many layups and free throws when he was on the court. But there were still problems. All of Allen, Tatum, and Russell often made little effort to recover to their man if blown by. Kareem wasn't prescient enough to cover for every mistake. Don Ford didn't have the strength and effort to rebound, defend the post, or effectively help. Frankly, Kareem and Kermit Washington might have been the only plus defenders on that team, and Kermit left before the playoffs.

I never understood why some people (not you) think the Lakers lost in 1977 because Kareem couldn't do more. Minus Kareem, I actually think the Lakers may have been worst in the league on both ends of the floor. Okay, the Nets really wanted to have the worst offense that year, so maybe what I said is slight hyperbole. But only slight.

[Timmyyy]

1. Duncan 2003
Consistently got the best out of his supporting casts strengths. Anchored one of the best defenses in the league RS and PO's. Raised the floor of his supporting casts weakness to a crazy level. 7th RS offense and while it wasn't as good in the PO's the only reason it stayed competitive was because of him. Crazy multiyear RAPM on a level only a few reached in the RAPM era. One of the best playoff runs ever.

2. Kareem 1974
Was the anchor on both sides of the ball for these Bucks. Based on that, look at his team results. 1st offense and defense (tied) in the RS, 1st offense 2nd defense in the PO's. Crazy impact in my eyes. It's a shame that they weren't able to win the title that year.

3. Duncan 2002
Was between Duncan and Russell here for me and Duncan 2002 is just too close to 2003 Duncan in my eyes. You can say exactly the same about 2002 what I did about 2003 (except PO D wasn't as good but that was mainly because they played only two rounds and one of them against the Lakers). In the end he didn't prove it until the very end so there is a little bit of an unknown factor but I still think what I analyzed when I compared 2003 Duncan with peak Russell in earlier threads holds also true for 2002 Duncan.

[E-Balla]

I just lost a giant ass post so my vote is still:

1. 03 Duncan
2. 94 Hakeem
3. 77 Kareem

And maybe I'll have time to type it up again but maybe not and it'll come next thread.

[ardee]

Not 100% on my vote yet but currently I'm leaning (and I'm listing a lot more than 3 seasons because these are all extremely close):

1. Duncan 03
2. Hakeem 94
3. Kareem 77
4. Duncan 02
5/6. Dr. J 76/Kareem 76 (I feel like I can easily put Kareem's year at #1 and I'm only not rating it higher because they missed the postseason)
7. Magic 87
8. Russell 62
8. Kareem 74
9. Hakeem 93
10. Magic 86
11. Kareem 72
12. Oscar 63

My current next up order but there's a lot of space for movement depending on the arguments I see. There's probably a gap between 76 Dr. J and Kareem and Magic but it's slight enough that I can hear an argument to place Magic up with them even if currently I don't think I can put him on that level.

I'll probably make posts for each of these players (I'll pick one season for Hakeem and Duncan because they were the same players both years and I'll compare and contrast 72 Kareem with 77 Kareem) and their case when I have time but I'll start at the top and work my way down asking some clarifying questions I think will help me out with this order because man it's tough.

I'll also make a post (or possibly include it in my Duncan post since its first) on why I excluded certain players here (mainly KG and Bird since they're the ones people might be thrown off by).

You're not a fan of Bird I take it? Could you expand?

Also, '86 Magic? over '86 Bird? And over '89-'91 Magic?

[Sublime187]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) Lebron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'neal 1999-20

Shaq is so good that he peaked for 20 seasons

Lol

[E-Balla]

hey, so I know I'm super late and i apologize if i'm asking for something we don't normally do around here, but is it too late for me to join this? I haven't posted a ton recently, but I was a regular contributor to the top-10 defensive at each position project, and I'd love to be part of this one.

As long as you add to the discussion I'm sure it's fine.

[_Game7_]

1. 03 Duncan
2. 77 Kareem
3. 87 Magic

[E-Balla]

Not 100% on my vote yet but currently I'm leaning (and I'm listing a lot more than 3 seasons because these are all extremely close):

1. Duncan 03
2. Hakeem 94
3. Kareem 77
4. Duncan 02
5/6. Dr. J 76/Kareem 76 (I feel like I can easily put Kareem's year at #1 and I'm only not rating it higher because they missed the postseason)
7. Magic 87
8. Russell 62
8. Kareem 74
9. Hakeem 93
10. Magic 86
11. Kareem 72
12. Oscar 63

My current next up order but there's a lot of space for movement depending on the arguments I see. There's probably a gap between 76 Dr. J and Kareem and Magic but it's slight enough that I can hear an argument to place Magic up with them even if currently I don't think I can put him on that level.

I'll probably make posts for each of these players (I'll pick one season for Hakeem and Duncan because they were the same players both years and I'll compare and contrast 72 Kareem with 77 Kareem) and their case when I have time but I'll start at the top and work my way down asking some clarifying questions I think will help me out with this order because man it's tough.

I'll also make a post (or possibly include it in my Duncan post since its first) on why I excluded certain players here (mainly KG and Bird since they're the ones people might be thrown off by).

You're not a fan of Bird I take it? Could you expand?

Also, '86 Magic? over '86 Bird? And over '89-'91 Magic?

I wanted to talk about 76 Dr. J and Kareem vs 02 Duncan first (I'm still pissed over losing that post this morning) but I'll talk Magic, Russell, Bird, Oscar, and KG next thread since this one is ending later today most likely and Duncan/Kareem are close to being voted in.

I just know it'll be a long post so I'll have it ready for the next thread first thing (even if I can't address rebuttals, I have a busy weekend).

[70sFan]

I see a cluster of five very deserving candidates right now: Kareem, Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem and Russell (and Shaq and Wilt but those are gone now).

1. 2003 Tim Duncan
About as good as the #2 here (having less "small things" on O, but also more proven and resilient scoring). Good defensive cast, but the ability to crack a #7 offense nearly out of thin air (lacking on offense) is ultra rare for a player as good on defense as Duncan was. As we all know, he exploded on the post-season, confirming the scoring advantage and leading him past...

2. 2004 Kevin Garnett
Heeeere we go again. With a worse cast than his competition (we've already discussed this ad nauseam, feel free to disagree), led the 2nd best team by SRS and only fell (in a close series) on the WCF when his AS-level #2 got injured. That 24.9 (+3 rTS%) / 14.3 / 5.1 / 1.5 / 2.3 statline per 75 is absurd, and you've got to note that it is the best year, period, by Engelmann's PI RAPM dataset, peaking at +10 (about 1 point better than 03 Duncan, 1.5 points better than 00 Shaq, around 1 point better than multiple LeBron years).

3. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
More knowledgable posters than me think this is his best year, and I'm not a big KAJ watcher so I'm gonna trust them on this. He went nuclear on those Warriors and Blazers but ultimately his team wasn't enough to get past the eventual champions. Some would think Kareem's (relative) shortcomings on creation meant his overmatched guards couldn't manage the creation load BUT 1) it would be kinda like shifting the blame of that loss to him, which is absurd 2) you could make a similar case to KG in regards to high-profile scoring (> 27 ppg kind of scoring) — both being unfair. I would only consider that creation shortcoming as a kind of tie-breaker between elite tier peaks, such as here. Contrarily to Duncan, his (in this case easily) stronger scoring is now countered with stronger defense, plus the other little advantages.

Not other KAJ years because: haven't seen that much year-specific film of him (pending since 2016).
Not Hakeem because: don't think he meshed hsi peak O and D together.
Not Russell because: not adjusting that much for era, although he has a clear #1 case if you go by pure era impact

Nice post. A few things I'd comment on.

About the Lakers losing in the 1977 playoffs. It's more complicated than Kareem lacking the creation of a guard.

In transition and early offense, the Lakers were burdened by poor shot selection, with Allen and Tatum often taking contested and wildly off balance jumpers, rather than press the advantage or let the play develop. In the half court, there were a variety of significant issues. The Lakers too often had multiple cutters entering the lane at once. The resulting congestion blocked passing angles and turned otherwise good shots into poor ones. The Lakers didn't have a frequently used set in which a guard received a screen. Something like this wasn't part of the playbook but would have really helped. Specifically on Kareem's creation, it actually was significant, especially for his position. There were limited options due to a lack of shooters and poor spacing, but he created many off ball advantages throughout games, as teams would front or shadow him. I don't think Kareem was a different playmaker in 1977 than in 1980, when Bill Russell dubbed him the best playmaking center in the league, he just had fewer options.

As big a reason why the Lakers lost in the playoffs, though, was their defense. Here's a quick view of the Lakers defense without Kareem.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

22:23, Kareem leaves the game for his first rest. Tatum makes absolutely zero attempt to guard his man, Dudley waltzes past him, and Abernathy (Kareem's replacement) shows no awareness of what is happening.
24:40, After a commercial break, the Lakers are confused on who is guarding who. Russell doesn't do a great job at guarding Barry, but the fault is really on Tatum who leaves his man open under the basket to double team, and Abernathy who again is a statue.
25:05, Russell can't defend without fouling.
25:30, Allen loses track of his man, who cuts across the lane, and is rewarded with an open jumper.

This was typical Lakers defense without Kareem. Significant defensive breakdown possession after possession. It's even worse in the Blazers series. Kareem was much better defensively in 1977 than in 1980. He repositioned in anticipation of cutters and drives, made multiple effort plays, and was more than willing to switch on the PnR. As a result, the Lakers stopped giving up so many layups and free throws when he was on the court. But there were still problems. All of Allen, Tatum, and Russell often made little effort to recover to their man if blown by. Kareem wasn't prescient enough to cover for every mistake. Don Ford didn't have the strength and effort to rebound, defend the post, or effectively help. Frankly, Kareem and Kermit Washington might have been the only plus defenders on that team, and Kermit left before the playoffs.

I never understood why some people (not you) think the Lakers lost in 1977 because Kareem couldn't do more. Minus Kareem, I actually think the Lakers may have been worst in the league on both ends of the floor. Okay, the Nets really wanted to have the worst offense that year, so maybe what I said is slight hyperbole. But only slight.

What do you think about Don Chaney in 1977 Lakers? I has always been extremely impressive with his defense in Boston but he looks to be past his prime by late 70s.

[pandrade83]

Ok so parsing through I'll flat out say here I took away credit for people for some dumb stuff. Easy example is I put Duncan in 02 a half step back just because I think he did better against LA in 03 relative to the strength of the Lakers. That's really the only reason I had, when we're talking players this great small nitpicks encompass the gap.

Either way Duncan in 03 ended up #1 on my preliminary list. I don't think anyone else in league history has a carry job as impressive as this. Looking at the roster we have:

Duncan
2nd best player is most likely Bruce Bowen who was a positive player overall but not much.
3rd best was probably rookie Emmanuel Ginobili who averaged 9/4/3 in the playoffs and less than that in the regular season.
4th best was probably DRob who was great but hit his old age after getting hurt in Feb and averaged about 6/6 in both the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs prior to the Finals while basically filling in as a warm body for 6 fouls against the Lakers in the most important series.
Stephen Jackson is probably the only other player on the team that wasn't a net negative and that's still iffy.

They had no business winning a ring. They had 60% of the cap tied up in Danny Ferry (played 101 minutes in the playoffs), Steve Smith (played 66 minutes in the playoffs), and old man DRob. It's insane to think a team like that beat not only the defending champions with Shaq and Kobe but more impressively beat the deep ass 03 Mavericks squad. I know Dirk got hurt but I posted the numbers in a previous thread of how Duncan performed when Dirk was playing, I don't think they'd win if Dirk stayed healthy and they were already down 2-1 to San Antonio when he went down. Either way Duncan elevated that supporting cast to a win against:

Dirk, Nash, Finley, "bum ass" Raef LaFrentz, NVE, and Shawn Bradley. You can easily make an argument that after Duncan Dallas had the 6 best players in the series depending on how you felt about Bowen's defense in a series where Finley averaged 23/6/3 on 65 TS% and D.Rob's hard decline at the tail end of the season. San Antonio still won.

Hakeem in 94 is usually the other year mentioned with Duncan in 03 but I feel a lot of the credit given to the 94 postseason run is really credit being given to the 95 postseason run (which is Hakeem's best IMO). Outside of the Finals the competition just wasn't as good as Duncan's IMO. Utah was a team that annually had bad postseasons thanks to Karl Malone's predictable drop off, Portland had a disgruntled star that asked out and the rest of their squad wasn't really great, and his defense against Phoenix shouldn't be ignored but their defense was garbage and Hakeem had an easy job scoring in that series. I feel like it's hard to separate 94 from 95 mentally but once I do that I realize that while I think Hakeem WOULD perform great against better competition like the Knicks, he didn't. Beat who was in front of him and dominated, but his competition wasn't better than Duncan's so I can't take him over Duncan.

Now with all that said we get into Kareem in 77 who is 3rd on my preliminary list. This is a season that statistically stands only with LeBron in 09 in terms of how eye poppingly unbelievable the numbers are. 26/13/4 with slightly over a steal and 3 blocks a game on 61 TS% seems amazing, but not THAT amazing, until you add in a few key factors:

Turnovers weren't tracked yet which screwed over players at the top. In 78 his numbers across the board (like all of them) were down outside of his steals, yet his PER was a 29.2 because the inclusion of TOVs made it more accurate. I think if there were TOV numbers in 77 Kareem would've easily cleared a 30 PER. Another way to show this dominance is to look at his lead compared to others. 2nd place in PER had a 23. 2nd place in WS had over 5 less than Kareem.

He was 2nd in scoring, lead the league in rebounds, lead the league in blocks, was 1st in FG%, 2nd in TS% (unfortunately the most efficient PG in league history was just starting to blossom in Portland), all while being 9th in minutes, and if you extrapolate his scoring to 2019 numbers (using rTS%) he had the equivalent to a 66 TS%. 20 TSA per 75 on +10 rTS% is Curry type scoring production.

Then in the playoffs he was outed in the WCF but faced a GOAT tier team (at least when healthy) in the 77 Blazers that featured a player that would've been picked already if it wasn't for injuries, Bill Walton. I'm not holding that against him at all given how he played.

Against Golden State they won in 7 with Kareem averaging 37/19/4 with 3.6 bpg on 64 TS% (the Warriors allowed opponents to have a 51 TS% in the regular season). In the last 4 games of the series Cap averaged 41/21 on 66 TS%. He carried that rare form into the 77 series against Portland and averaged 30/16/4 on 66 TS% against peak Bill Walton. They got swept but make no mistake Kareem was dominant.

So why is a year this dominant so low? Well his team (as bad as they were outside of him) wasn't that great. Way better than they had any business being but not nearly as good as the Spurs and Rockets which leaves me with the thought it's not as impressive. Like sure Kareem carried a team to being a +2-3 team but Duncan carried a team to being a +6ish team. I just think it pales in comparison. I also think I might be shaded in picking 77 over his other seasons because most of his game's I've watched the full games of are from the late 70s.

I'll get to Duncan in 02 and why it's over 76 Kareem and Erving next time I get a chance to post.

I don't think picking Duncan '03 > Olajuwon '94 is unreasonable; I went the other way but I can still appreciate where you're coming from.

I do, however, disagree with the bold. Looking at it round by round (Portland vs. Phoenix is kind of a whatever imo, so I'm just skipping it).

Phoenix vs. Lakers - Phoenix did have a soft defense for sure - but the Lakers defense was also soft. While you can certainly argue that they had a switch to flip & were able to flip it in '01 - that switch didn't actually flip & in the playoffs, the Lakers played like a team that was in-line with their RS results. And if there's no flip to switch (i.e. - if the Lakers are who their RS results indicated), then Phoenix is comfortably the more formidable threat - especially fully healthy. And even Phoenix may have had their RS results somewhat understated because Chuck & KJ each missed time. While i can appreciate that Olajuwon didn't face much defensive resistance, his ability to anchor that defense to a place where they could hold the line on Phoenix (7 pts worse per 100 than RS) is quite impressive.

Utah vs. Dallas - I'd easily take a fully healthy Dallas over that Utah team. The problem is that reality didn't exist since Dirk missed 1/2 the series. Once that's taken into account, I'd rather deal with Dallas then Utah.

Knicks vs. Nets - The Knicks are by far the more dangerous team. I don't really feel like I have to argue this.

[E-Balla]

I don't think picking Duncan '03 > Olajuwon '94 is unreasonable; I went the other way but I can still appreciate where you're coming from.

I do, however, disagree with the bold. Looking at it round by round (Portland vs. Phoenix is kind of a whatever imo, so I'm just skipping it).

Phoenix vs. Lakers - Phoenix did have a soft defense for sure - but the Lakers defense was also soft. While you can certainly argue that they had a switch to flip & were able to flip it in '01 - that switch didn't actually flip & in the playoffs, the Lakers played like a team that was in-line with their RS results. And if there's no flip to switch (i.e. - if the Lakers are who their RS results indicated), then Phoenix is comfortably the more formidable threat - especially fully healthy. And even Phoenix may have had their RS results somewhat understated because Chuck & KJ each missed time. While i can appreciate that Olajuwon didn't face much defensive resistance, his ability to anchor that defense to a place where they could hold the line on Phoenix (7 pts worse per 100 than RS) is quite impressive.

Well they played 2 rounds, and one of them is the round that has me trumpeting Duncan's offense anyway. In round one vs Minny they played like a -1.7 defense, and after falling behind 2-1 they held Minny to a 95.4 ORTG (-9.4 compared to their regular season ORTG). I'd say that switch worked just fine until Duncan killed them but I can see the argument that it was just an aberration I guess but personally I don't agree.

Utah vs. Dallas - I'd easily take a fully healthy Dallas over that Utah team. The problem is that reality didn't exist since Dirk missed 1/2 the series. Once that's taken into account, I'd rather deal with Dallas then Utah.

Ehh but Duncan killed Dallas even when they had Dirk. I guess here my tie up is that I truly feel confident saying the Spurs still beat Dallas if Dirk wasn't hurt.

Knicks vs. Nets - The Knicks are by far the more dangerous team. I don't really feel like I have to argue this.

Oh easily. No disagreement here at all as you assumed.

[Colbinii]

I just know it'll be a long post so I'll have it ready for the next thread first thing (even if I can't address rebuttals, I have a busy weekend).

I also have a busy weekend. It is a shame we can't do projects during the winter months as that is when I am nestled up in my bedroom or in my living room for hours on end. The summers here in Minnesota are too perfect to stay inside for long.

[Colbinii]

hey, so I know I'm super late and i apologize if i'm asking for something we don't normally do around here, but is it too late for me to join this? I haven't posted a ton recently, but I was a regular contributor to the top-10 defensive at each position project, and I'd love to be part of this one.

You can always post and be part of discussion. It is up to LeBron to let you in or not, LeProjectManager.

[HHera187]

N.1: 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
His best season, all time level playoffs and unbelievable performance in WCF VS Portland and Bill Walton.

N.2: 1964 Bill Russell
Goat defense season.

N.3: 1986 Larry Bird



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[trex_8063]

hey, so I know I'm super late and i apologize if i'm asking for something we don't normally do around here, but is it too late for me to join this? I haven't posted a ton recently, but I was a regular contributor to the top-10 defensive at each position project, and I'd love to be part of this one.

You can always post and be part of discussion. It is up to LeBron to let you in or not, LeProjectManager.

.

It's not my call, but I think cecil should be allowed in. He was a solid and consistent contributor during the top defensive players project. Just my 2c.