Peaks project update: #7

[RoyceDa59]

Larry Bird


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[HHera187]

N.1: 1964 Bill Russell

N.2: 1965 Bill Russell

N.3: Hakeem Olajuwon 1993

Sent from my CLT-L09 using RealGM mobile app

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1964 Russell
2. 1965 Russell
3. 1994 Hakeem

Russell was the most revolutionary player maybe ever, and others have outlined why these are probably his two best years. I finally decided on '94 Hakeem instead of '93 mostly just because of his unbelievable playoff performance.

[No-more-rings]

It’s got to be Hakeem at this point right?

If anyone’s checked out Elgee’s article on Hakeem he made a very good case for him as the 2nd best defender ever, and i think has his peak behind only Mj, Shaq and Lebron. He also went 6th in the last project, i have a little trouble seeing him being 7th or lower.

[Mavericksfan]

This is where it gets interesting

I think that top 6 is pretty perfect for the most impact overall seasons(order is w/e but imo all of them are 10/10 seasons)

I think I’ll go with

65 Russell
I’m still trying to figure out why 64 is being regarded as his too year. Cousey being replaced with a KC Jones has a lot to do with their defensive spike as well. ‘65 team had a better regular season and played tougher competition in the playoffs. So it’s my choice.

86 Bird
Impact is clear off the charts from the moment he joined the Celtics. In my top tier for GOAT offensive players. His defense at it’s peak was also. positive and led one of the best teams of all time.

94 Hakeem
Amazing two way player anchoring both sides. Pretty much like Duncan’s 03 season but his didnt lift his team to nearly the same height on either end. Lack of regular season dominace / offensive impact are the only things holding this season back imo

[No-more-rings]

1. Hakeem 94
2. Dr. J 76
3. Magic Johnson 87

These were all explained in my discussion post in the last thread.

Isn’t Russel your goat? If so how can that be if he doesn’t even have a top 9 peak?

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic
Ballot #2 - 86 Bird
Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

--------------------

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic

Magic was a unique and special player. Took his game to another level that season, especially when relied on more as a primary offensive option. He led the lakers to league best 67-15 record and ultimately the championship against the celtics.

RS - 23.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .5 BPG, 60.2% TS, 124 ORTG, .263 WS/48

PS - 21.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .4 BPG, 60.2% TS, 129 ORTG, .265 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-finals-celtics-vs-lakers.html

Watch on YouTube

Via NY Times from 12/6/87

Even then he flirted with a reputation as the game's greatest player. Now 28 - the start of what many feel are a player's peak years - and coming off his best season, he has a legitimate claim to it.

What a season it was! Playing brilliantly from November to June, Johnson led Los Angeles to its fifth world championship, ran away with the N.B.A.'s Most Valuable Player Award, led the league in assists (his 977 were 129 more than the runner-up) and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

He was also named the best player in the championship series against the Boston Celtics, his hook shot with two seconds left winning the pivotal fourth game and his all-out play breaking open a close final contest. His totals for that last game were 16 points (12 in the third quarter when the Lakers rallied), 19 assists, 8 rebounds and 3 steals.

''Can the game be played any better than Magic played it in the third period. . .?'' asked Sports Illustrated.

Via Sports Illustrated from 6/29/87

This year the Lakers finally were Magic's team: Speed is power, power is speed. Slowly the cast had changed. Michael Cooper had emerged; A.C. Green and James Worthy had been added. Even Mychal Thompson, the most important pickup by either team this year, once was strong enough to play center yet was fast enough to play small forward at times. One had, at certain moments, a sense of watching a prototype of a different breed of athlete -- strong, fast, disciplined -- playing at a level of stunning intensity, with surprisingly few turnovers.

If the Knicks of the late '60s could be described as four guards and one forward (Willis Reed), then this was often a team of four forwards led by a point guard who could, in a very recent era, have played power forward. What made the series so special was the sharp contrast in the styles of Los Angeles and Boston and the knowledge that these two teams, with cameo appearances by Philadelphia and Houston, have essentially dominated the championships since Bird and Johnson entered the league in 1979. That and, of course, the fact that both teams have gradually been shaped to the styles and contours of their superstars, one white and one black.

The Celtics, this year's defending champions, play half-court basketball, and they play it better than any team in the league. That they had even made it to the finals was remarkable, given the death of Len Bias, the infirmities of Bill Walton and the fact that Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both playing with injuries. But Boston finally lacked the bench mandatory for a tough playoff final and the speed to stay with L.A. in a running game. The Celtic front line, after all, was composed of three exceptional basketball players, while the first seven players for the Lakers seemed to be both exceptional basketball players and exceptional athletes.

One had to look no further than the contrast between McHale and Worthy to understand the classic matchup displayed in this series. If the Lakers controlled the tempo, it would mean that Worthy -- possibly the fastest big man going to the basket in the league -- would be a dominant player; if the Celtics controlled the pace, it meant they would be able to get the ball to McHale, surprisingly nimble and deft, uncommonly skilled at using his body and arms for maximum leverage. Each was an extension of the best of his team. For Worthy to be Worthy, Magic had to be Magic; for McHale to get the ball where he wanted it, Larry Bird and the Celtic offense had to move in proper mesh. If one was having a good game, the other probably was not.

Ballot #2 - 86 Bird

I can't help but tie magic and bird together here. They're 2 of the best on the fly decision makers the league has ever seen, and that's something you can't teach. I'll have to start looking closely at kidd to see where I'll rank him since i put him in that group as well.

Bird, similar to Duncan had a great regular season in 86, but took his game even further in the playoffs averaging nearly a triple double on 61.5% TS en route to the title.

RS - 25.8 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 6.8 APG, 2 SPG, .4 BPG, 58% TS, 114 ORTG, .244 WS/48

PS - 25.9 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 8.2 APG, 2.1 SPG, .6 BPG, 61.5% TS, 127 ORTG, .263 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-finals-rockets-vs-celtics.html

Watch on YouTube

;feature=youtu.be

Via Sports Illustrated from 3/3/86 -- to say bird was highly regarded by his peers is an understatement

"The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest." Chimes in Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood. "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't." Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball.”

Bird's play over the recent weeks has revealed an athlete at the height of his powers. When Kevin McHale went down with a heel injury, Bird just gritted his teeth, stooped and hefted McHale's load to his shoulders. In the Celtics' eight games since the All-Star break, Bird has averaged 30.8 points, 13.1 rebounds and 7.8 assists.

​​Inasmuch as the Celtics, with a best-in-the-league record of 43-11, have hardly missed a beat without McHale, Bird has to be the leading contender for his third straight MVP award, an accomplishment achieved in the NBA by only Russell and Chamberlain. Bird can probably count on Jack Ramsay's vote. After Bird struck for 47 points (including the game winner in overtime), 14 rebounds and 11 assists at Portland on Feb. 14, the Trail Blazer coach, a man not given to overstatement, called him "the greatest clutch player of all time."

"As an all-around player, there's never been anyone better," said Pacer coach George Irvine, the victim of a 30-11-12 Bird line Sunday night (his sixth triple double of the season). "A unique phenomenon," says San Antonio veteran Artis Gilmore of Bird.

[And yet…]

Bird, who has never been accused of false modesty, clings to the position (publicly at least) that Magic Johnson is the game's best active player. "He makes his teammates better to a greater degree than I do. It's his character, not just his abilities," says Bird.

Via NY Times, Bird’s clutch play en route to the title in 86

Bird's mood was different today. Not only did the Celtics sweep the Bucks in the Eastern Conference final and advance into the championship round a third straight year, but it was his 3-point shooting extravaganza that put them there.

He hit four of his five 3-point baskets in the final 4 minutes 6 seconds of the game and paved the way for the Celtics' 111-98 victory. Bird attempted six 3-point shots and made five of them, equaling his previous high, which he made earlier in the season against the Cleveland Cavaliers. Danny Ainge took five 3-point shots and made them all.

The Celtics, 11-1 in the playoffs, will await the outcome of the Western Conference final in which the Houston Rockets lead the Los Angeles Lakers, the defending champions, by a 3-1 margin.

Bird, who finished with 30 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals, got 17 of his points in the final quarter. Fourteen of those came after Coach K. C. Jones shifted him into the backcourt after Dennis Johnson had fouled out of the game with 4:57 remaining and Boston ahead, 95-92. For the rest of the game, the Celtics played with a front line of Bill Walton, Robert Parish and Kevin McHale with Ainge as the ball-handler.

After Bird had made his third basket from 3-point range and the partisan capacity crowd of 11,052 began to realize that the Bucks had no chance to win, it began to chant, ''Give the ball to Larry.''

The Celtics obliged and Bird hit his last 3-pointer from the 24-foot range at the buzzer.

''I think I was unconscious today, especially on the one that Bill Walton pitched back to me,'' said Bird of the second of his four attempts. ''The ball was a little to my left, and I was little off balance.’’

From same SI article in 87 above (Magic ballot), describing why I can't help but link the 2 together

Slowly, inevitably, as they raised their teams to the highest professional level, as their teams became perennial challengers for the title, the connection between them, which had once been hyped and artificial, gradually became real. In a league in which expansion had ruined traditional rivalries, their rivalry and that of their teams remained genuine, and they reached the rare point where rivalry turns into respect and even affection. Bird led the campaign for Magic as MVP this year, and Magic talked during the playoffs about how playing against Bird raised his game, made him better, and how he thought that when Bird retired he, too, might retire, that the special challenge implicit in their careers and their mutual era would be over. It was the statement of an athlete thinking not so much of a given series as of the athletic history books.

Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

Watch on YouTube

I get it. It's a 5 minute clip, but I still think you can tell just how talented this guy was that year. An unstoppable offensive force leading his team to the championship. Nets also ranked 1st in defense that season.

For those who doubt the ABA, check out his per 100 #s in 76 vs. 80:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html#per_poss::none

They’re nearly identical including efficiency. This is when he was given a bigger role in the offense after Cunningham came aboard as coach.

[euroleague]

I’ve already stated my reasoning, and my votes aren’t changing.

1. Bird 86
2. Hakeem 94
3. Curry 16

[ardee]

1. 1986 Bird

Spectacular season, I think he falls short of the top 4 by a tiny bit mainly because of his defense being only really good instead of great. But I'd consider Bird to have a top 4 offensive peak along with LeBron, Magic and Jordan.

His numbers were spectacular, 26/10/7 on 50/42/90 in the RS, playing on a pretty loaded team. Getting 10 rpg as an SF, playing alongside McHale and Parish, is incredibly impressive. After LeBron he's probably the best passer/playmaker as a non PG ever. Very useful help defender, watch game 6 of the Finals and see how much he affected Hakeem.

Watch on YouTube

It definitely still comes down to his offense though, and just how key he was to that Celtics team which might still be the best team ever (I have a hard time seeing Durant and Draymond from '17 guarding McHale and Parish down low). So the first 28 games of the season (Christmas), the Celtics were 21-7. Good but hardly GOAT caliber. Bird had been nursing back issues and averaged only 23.8/9.4/6.1 on 52.5% TS.

He got rolling after that, and led them to a 43-6 record in the next 49 games, averaging 27.6/10.2/7.2 on 61% TS. 43-6!! The team cooled down towards the end, this could've EASILY been a 70 win team, and it all revolved around Bird. McHale got injured on Jan 22nd, and basically sat until Feb 26th. In that span Bird picked up the rebounding slack, taking his averages to 26.8/12.6/7.1 and during a time the team could've faltered led them to key double digit wins over other contenders, the Lakers (twice) and the Bucks, in a 14-3 stretch.

Can't say enough about this guy and this season honestly. One of my favorites, absolutely deserves top 5.

2. 1987 Larry Bird

Was having a huge Hakeem/Duncan debate in my head (always sided with 'Keem but E-Balla's posts have made me consider Duncan more) but then I realized I could just go here.

Almost the same player more or less, just slightly worse defensively IMO (the eye test doesn't show me that harassing quality he had from the previous year) and his 3 didn't fall as well in the Playoffs. That's it. Otherwise he's still GOAT caliber. Had possibly the best 3 game stretch against an elite defense until 2016 Finals LeBron in the last 3 games of the Detroit series. 36/10/7 on 66% TS

3. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon

The evolutionary Russell. No weakness defensively, him and Robinson are the only ones to ever combine vertical and horizontal defense in the signature manner that Russell did. I think he was a toss-up with '03 Duncan for me, the gap on both ends are so small. Normally I'd have taken Hakeem defensively by not a big but clear amount, but in 2003 in particular Duncan was basically right there. I think at the end of the day Duncan wins on passing by a bigger margin than Hakeem does on scoring, which basically had me take him slightly ahead overall (it is so slight, literally 100 vs 99). Therefore since Duncan is in Hakeem is my next vote.

[Mavericksfan]

The evolutionary Russell. No weakness defensively, him and Robinson are the only ones to ever combine vertical and horizontal defense in the signature manner that Russell did.

The evolutionary Russell. No weakness defensively, him and Robinson are the only ones to ever combine vertical and horizontal defense in the signature manner that Russell did.

Love the detail of the response. Just wanted to ask your opinion of peak Ben Wallace in that regard.

[E-Balla]

1. Hakeem 94
2. Dr. J 76
3. Magic Johnson 87

These were all explained in my discussion post in the last thread.

Isn’t Russel your goat? If so how can that be if he doesn’t even have a top 9 peak?

He isn't my GOAT and there's not much of a difference between guys at this point. All of these guys are "easily best player in the league at their peak" level.

[LA Bird]

1. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
2. 1964 Bill Russell
3. 1986 Larry Bird

94 was the best season in Hakeem's Rockets career in terms of SRS and rDRtg and he capped it off with a championship while leading the team in all 5 key statistical box score categories in the postseason. Hakeem had a better playoff run in 95 but dropped off defensively and he lacked the offensive volume in the 93 postseason that usually sets him apart from somebody with superior regular season performance like 04 Garnett (more on him in later rounds).

Lack of video and data combined with Russell's year to year consistency makes picking his peak season pretty difficult. The Celtics defense peaked in 64 for both regular season and playoffs and since the case for Russell usually revolves around his impact on team defense, 64 is my go to season for his peak. 64 was also one of their stronger playoff runs, winning in only 5 against both the 4+ SRS Royals with Oscar and Warriors with Wilt. Russell had a lot better WS/48 in the 62/65 playoffs but much of that is off of higher scoring efficiency, which IMO is small sample luck (hence why it doesn't show up in the RS) and is not particularly important given how low Russell's scoring rate is.

Bird sometimes declined in the postseason but 84 and 86 were dominant runs that ended in championships. The difference is that Bird led the league in 3s in 86 at 42% and shot well from 3 in the playoffs too on high volume (for his era). Extremely high offensive portability with his shooting plus passing and he was still a solid defender in 86. Leading one of the GOAT teams with little dropoff without their #2 in McHale is also another bonus.

[DatAsh]

1. 1964 Bill Russell - most dominant year defensively
2. 1965 Bill Russell - basically the same player as in 64, just maybe a touch slower
3. 1962 Bill Russell

A few notes on the defensive dominance of Russell's Celtics
-The Celtics went from the second worst defense to the best defense the year Russell joined, gaining 18 DWS, and going on to dominate the league defensively for the next 13 years.
- The Celtics went from the best defensive team to middle of the pack when Russell left, losing 18.5 DWS.
- The notion that Russell was "lucky" or was carried by "amazing" offensive teammates doesn't hold much water when you consider the following points
- The Celtics ranged from average to terrible(worst in the league) offensively.
- The Celtics were winning the vast majority of there games with defense(as evidenced by the % of Wins from Def), for which Russell was the one constant and BY FAR the biggest factor.
- The only 2 times the Boston Celtics failed to win a championship is
- When Russell was injured in 58'
- When facing possibly the greatest team and player ever in 67'
- In 1962, the Celtics went 0-4 without Russell, and 60-16 with him
- In 1969, the Celtics went 0-5 without Russell, and 48-29 with him

[DatAsh]

This is where it gets interesting

I think that top 6 is pretty perfect for the most impact overall seasons(order is w/e but imo all of them are 10/10 seasons)

I think I’ll go with

65 Russell
I’m still trying to figure out why 64 is being regarded as his too year. Cousey being replaced with a KC Jones has a lot to do with their defensive spike as well. ‘65 team had a better regular season and played tougher competition in the playoffs. So it’s my choice.

86 Bird
Impact is clear off the charts from the moment he joined the Celtics. In my top tier for GOAT offensive players. His defense at it’s peak was also. positive and led one of the best teams of all time.

94 Hakeem
Amazing two way player anchoring both sides. Pretty much like Duncan’s 03 season but his didnt lift his team to nearly the same height on either end. Lack of regular season dominace / offensive impact are the only things holding this season back imo

64 and 65 Russ were essentially the same player, just in different circumstances, so I can see a good argument for either year being his peak.

It does seem weird that you have the 65 version over Bird and Hakeem, but not the 64 version, given that he's essentially the same player.

[Joey Wheeler]

1-Larry Bird 1986
2-Magic Johnson 1987
3-Larry Bird 1987

Bird has been my pick since #1 so no need to further explain, but if anyone has questions just go ahead. Will just add here that while #1/top 3 was probably a reach, by now he's low enough as to be indefensible in my perspective. There's just no way Tim Duncan was a better player than Bird or Magic prime-wise.

[Timmyyy]

1-Larry Bird 1986
2-Magic Johnson 1987
3-Larry Bird 1987

Bird has been my pick since #1 so no need to further explain, but if anyone has questions just go ahead. Will just add here that while #1/top 3 was probably a reach, by now he's low enough as to be indefensible in my perspective. There's just no way Tim Duncan was a better player than Bird or Magic prime-wise.

I hope you mean 'according to your criteria' in that last sentence, because there are billion ways to have peak Duncan above Bird and Magic and the cases were shown in this project pretty much from thread one. I would say there is a reason he is already voted in, it's not like everybody completely lost their minds.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using RealGM mobile app

[Narigo]

1.1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
2.1996 David Robinson
3.1965 Bill Russell

[Joey Wheeler]

1-Larry Bird 1986
2-Magic Johnson 1987
3-Larry Bird 1987

Bird has been my pick since #1 so no need to further explain, but if anyone has questions just go ahead. Will just add here that while #1/top 3 was probably a reach, by now he's low enough as to be indefensible in my perspective. There's just no way Tim Duncan was a better player than Bird or Magic prime-wise.

I hope you mean 'according to your criteria' in that last sentence, because there are billion ways to have peak Duncan above Bird and Magic and the cases were shown in this project pretty much from thread one. I would say there is a reason he is already voted in, it's not like everybody completely lost their minds.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using RealGM mobile app

Of course, that's pretty much implied in everything I or anyone says about sports. It's all opinions after all, there's no definition of "better" and we can't actually prove anything, just debate.

That said, I feel confident that this particular opinion of mine is consensus (not on RealGM but in general, don't really think Duncan is rated above Magic or Bird). Of course that doesn't make it necessarily correct and I recognize the arguments made for Duncan even if I totally disagree with them (not with what's said necessarily, but with it meaning he should be ranked that high). Anyway, my post wasn't a "This is absurd, I'm giving up on this project" thing, just pointing out a particular set of results that from the perspective I see basketball is indefensible. I'm sure results like that have happened or will happen for everyone in this and other projects.

[Mavericksfan]

This is where it gets interesting

I think that top 6 is pretty perfect for the most impact overall seasons(order is w/e but imo all of them are 10/10 seasons)

I think I’ll go with

65 Russell
I’m still trying to figure out why 64 is being regarded as his too year. Cousey being replaced with a KC Jones has a lot to do with their defensive spike as well. ‘65 team had a better regular season and played tougher competition in the playoffs. So it’s my choice.

86 Bird
Impact is clear off the charts from the moment he joined the Celtics. In my top tier for GOAT offensive players. His defense at it’s peak was also. positive and led one of the best teams of all time.

94 Hakeem
Amazing two way player anchoring both sides. Pretty much like Duncan’s 03 season but his didnt lift his team to nearly the same height on either end. Lack of regular season dominace / offensive impact are the only things holding this season back imo

64 and 65 Russ were essentially the same player, just in different circumstances, so I can see a good argument for either year being his peak.

It does seem weird that you have the 65 version over Bird and Hakeem, but not the 64 version, given that he's essentially the same player.

Honestly I thought about it. At this point it’s all splitting hairs. Like I view all of these seasons 9/10ish and it’s difficult to decide who should be higher. I could easily put at least half of Russell’s career in this tier.

[ardee]

The evolutionary Russell. No weakness defensively, him and Robinson are the only ones to ever combine vertical and horizontal defense in the signature manner that Russell did.

The evolutionary Russell. No weakness defensively, him and Robinson are the only ones to ever combine vertical and horizontal defense in the signature manner that Russell did.

Love the detail of the response. Just wanted to ask your opinion of peak Ben Wallace in that regard.

I think he's more of a traditional rim protector, wouldn't trust him to come out on PnRs as much and cover ground to help. That's KG's thing, but his rim protection was lacking.

Russell, Hakeem and Robinson are the only ones who were elite at both IMO.