Peaks project update: #11

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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#21 » by liamliam1234 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:53 pm

E-Balla wrote:Why would you say Oscar's regular season is far below KG in 04?


Well, “far below” is relative, but defence. If I recall, Garnett led in both offensive and defensive impact (and if not, was close to doing so). There is a case that Garnett could be at the top if this were solely considering regular season. And if that were the case, I would probably also take Robinson over Robertson (heh), because he (famously) is the closest to replicating that level of impact in the regular season. However, Robinson has that semi-severe playoff drop. The combination of offensive and defensive mastery, plus actual playoff success, is also why Walton is pushing for the third spot (but again, the health bothers me).
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#22 » by euroleague » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:57 pm

1. Steph Curry 2016
2. Julius Erving 1976
3. KG 2004

Will explain more in depth on August 3rd
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#23 » by liamliam1234 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 12:06 am

Catching up on a few points:

1. Glad someone finally made the case for Kobe, but I still struggle identifying whether 2006, 2008, or 2009 was the best year. And also probably still going to vote the five players I have previously mentioned before him. The point about lift applies even more to Garnett, Robinson, and probably Robertson, although I will give Kobe the playoff nod over at least two of them.

2. Citing to Erving basically replicating his playoff performances once he joined the NBA is inherent proof he was not just coasting off the “inferiority” of the ABA. He had better statistics in 1976 in a pretty comparable league, and all his NBA years do is show it was not a fluke.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#24 » by trex_8063 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 12:30 am

1st ballot - '04 Kevin Garnett
Another amazing two-way player. Dominant defensive year while also averaging 24.2 ppg and 5.0 apg (despite a damn-near stopped pace of just 89); only slightly above average shooting efficiency, but near GOAT-level big-man turnover economy. Anchored the 5th-rated offense while simultaneously anchoring the 6th-rated defense with principle supporting cast being Sam Cassell, an ancient Latrell Sprewell, Trenton Hassell, Fred Hoiberg, Mark Madsen, and Gary Trent.
I truly suspect they'd have gone to the finals (possibly won??) if not for Sam Cassell's most untimely injury [if memory serves, wasn't it a pulled groin as result of doing a celebratory "big balls" dance? :banghead: ].
Garnett is on another planet from every other player in the league in RAPM this season (literally +3 from the guy in 2nd [Shaq]). Though never one to fixate on a single metric, it's good to know that he was also #1 in the league in rs PER (by >2 over the 2nd-placed player), #1 in rs WS (by nearly 5 over the 2nd-placed player), #1 in rs VORP (by >2 over the 2nd-placed player), etc......by multiple measures he appears to be on an entirely different tier from any other player in the league that year. When someone is, in the modern era, exceeding his peers to such a dramatic degree, I think he certainly must get serious consideration by now.

fwiw, I specifically remember feeling he was on another level from everyone that year; I can place the time period exactly because I was in my 4th/final year of my post-grad studies, and recall sending a big "player eval/ranking" email to my dad one day when things were slow. Somehow the memory of composing that email has held semi-vivid in my mind, and I distinctly recall sort of marveling at how good KG seemed that year.


2nd ballot - '95 David Robinson
Don't know if this is a "dark-horse" pick for many at this stage, but the near-reality as I see is that David Robinson was asked [by the Spurs] to be Bill Russell on defense and simultaneously be Shaquille O'Neal on offense.......and he kinda takes some flack for not being up to the task [primarily in the playoffs]. But realistically, if he'd been consistently capable of maintaining his rs standard of offensive performance and efficiency during the playoffs, we'd have been discussing him in the top 3 positions of this project. So I don't think it's off base to give him some consideration now around #10. This version of Robinson anchored a -2.9 rDRTG (5th/27) with a principle cast [in descending order of minutes played] of Avery Johnson (scrappy and energetic, but seriously undersized even for a PG; mediocre defender overall), Sean Elliott (mediocre defender), Vinny Del Negro (probably slightly weak defensively, iirc), Chuck Person (a pinch past prime, never a good defender anyway), Dennis Rodman (erratic defensively [awful in the Houston series, fwiw], and missed 33 games), and JR Reid, Terry Cummings, post-prime Doc Rivers (Rivers probably the only one of those three I'd say was passable good defensively).
This version of Robinson simultaneously anchored a +3.4 rORTG (5th/27) with the aforementioned cast; they won 62 games (+5.90 SRS) overall. Made it to the WCF where Dennis Rodman had a total [and very public] meltdown, and the Spurs lost the series to Houston (with Hakeem in God-mode) in six games (outscored by a grand total of 10 pts in the entire series). Typically stated as Hakeem owning DRob and making him a helpless play-thing, though it's rarely acknowledged that Hakeem [because of how their offense and roster was structured] largely enjoyed single coverage (by Robinson), while Robinson was largely guarded by Olajuwon + 1-2 friends.
It's rarely acknowledged that DRob's cast [which had shot 37.5% from beyond the arc in the rs] somewhat crapped the bed shooting just 31.9% in this series (and did I mention they were only outscored by 10 points total in the entire series?); and again Rodman's meltdown and poor play is rarely given light of day in the construction of the usual narrative.
jsia, I think he deserves a look around now.


3rd ballot - '96 David Robinson
This year Rodman [who gets more credit for their defense in '95 than he deserves] is gone, and otherwise almost the exact same roster (except bench role players Chuck Person and Doc Rivers are both a year older), and their defense improves over any of the previous three seasons to -4.1 rDRTG (3rd of 29). He continues to anchor a very respectable +2.6 rORTG (9th/29), too, averaging 25.0 ppg/12.2 rpg/3.0 apg with just 2.3 topg and solid shooting efficiency, and anchoring that top-3 defense.
He has a fairly nice playoffs this year, too, though admittedly against some weakish defenses.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#25 » by Bel » Thu Aug 1, 2019 12:34 am

I see Oscar, Walton, Barkley, KG, and Kobe as clear cut above anyone else left. I have been waffling on the order but ran out of time to think and have went with this.

1. 64 Oscar
2. 77 Walton
3. 90 Barkley

Winning isn't required but winning bias is important to have in general because there are many things players do that don't contribute to the stat sheet or +/- but factor into whether or not they win, and that is what they play for. Bill Russell said the best games he ever played were not the ones where he got record numbers of points, boards, or blocks, but where he did a thousand little things right and made his opponents play worse and his teammates better.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#26 » by Mavericksfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 3:41 am

1)1976 Julius Erving

Thanks to all the Doctor J supporters that made me take a deeper look at the 76 ABA season.

Doc was downright dominant from start to finish and took down the two highest SRS teams. This included a dominant Finals against a legendary defender and great defensive team. Those same Nuggets were 1st in defense in the NBA the next year and lost to the eventual champs who’s record was misleading due to going 5-12 without Walton.

Just some stats to point out how ridiculously dominant he was.

He had a +5 per advantage over second place. He led the entire LEAGUE in defensive rating, and was 5th in offensive rating. He led the league in both offensive AND defensive winshares. Had a +4 advantage over next highest BPM. His VORP was +4 over the next highest.

One of the most dominant 2 way seasons ever.

2)1977 Bill Walton

Walton was ridiculously dominant when he played and honestly could’ve been closer to top 5 if he has offered more than 2000 regular season minutes. Anchored both ends and went through 9th,2nd,5th, and 3rd SRS teams in route to the championship. The fact that the team was 1st in SRS despite going 5-12 without Walton is a testament to his dominance.

3)2004 Kevin Garnett

The most dominant regular season left imo. I touched on this previously but his O/D rating relative to the team are insane. -7.7 on D rel to his team. +6.1 on O rel to his team.

He falters in terms of scoring during the playoffs but still provides tremendous value everywhere else. Managed to beat the Super Kings in a tough series and lost Cassell against the Lakers to end any chances of him getting to the Finals.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#27 » by E-Balla » Thu Aug 1, 2019 3:47 am

liamliam1234 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Why would you say Oscar's regular season is far below KG in 04?


Well, “far below” is relative, but defence. If I recall, Garnett led in both offensive and defensive impact (and if not, was close to doing so). There is a case that Garnett could be at the top if this were solely considering regular season. And if that were the case, I would probably also take Robinson over Robertson (heh), because he (famously) is the closest to replicating that level of impact in the regular season. However, Robinson has that semi-severe playoff drop. The combination of offensive and defensive mastery, plus actual playoff success, is also why Walton is pushing for the third spot (but again, the health bothers me).

So speaking of his impact I have one major hang up about KG in 04 and it's that I don't think he was better than in 03 (I will say he had the better season because he made it deeper in the playoffs though) and I don't think 05 was the major step down his impact numbers show it was. I find it much more believable that 04 was just a weird statistical quirk (in terms of his offensive impact especially since the team offense each of those 3 years was in the +2-3 range) especially when his NPI RAPM wasn't anything special in 2004.

I mean his RAPM in 03 is still #1, just not by far #1 and his NPI RAPM in 04 is still impressive, just not GOAT level.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#28 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:47 am

KG and Curry are both amazing regular season players I feel there is a concern in the playoffs. KG is so just midrange reliant in that system and Curry issues against the tightest and most physical defenses are well documented. With that said these are contenders for top 5 all time level regular seasons of all time so even with some drop off they are still contenders at this spot. Same goes for Robinson who's peak regular season value is ridiculous but loses some value in playoffs. Robinson and KG are significant defensive players so they don't have to be perfect on offense either.

So the question is... are there any players left who can approach their regular season value without having as much atrophy in the playoffs? Erving and Walton did great but the competition is a bit weaker. DIRK was amazing. West and Oscar are great. Even D Wade and Kobe?

1. 2004 Garnett - I'm sold that even with his downgrade on offense in the playoffs, he's starting as a DPOY level player anyways. I value his offense more than Walton considering skillset and competition

2. 2003 Garnett
3. 2005 Garnett

I'll just go with the other Garnett seasons as well since a lot of his game is there too.

Also, this project shows that Hakeem is probably not a top 10 player all time, his peak is just inside top 10 and it was for relatively short time (93 to 95 or 96) compared to some other players. 85-92 is more like Ewing level
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#29 » by euroleague » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:44 am

It seems my old post got lost.
1. Steph Curry 16 - His regular season impact was GOAT level, and he's always been a great playoff performer - he just got injured in this season and everyone who never watched him before put all his success on "hype" and "regular season greatness". He dominated in '19 as well after KD went down. I've already discussed him, no need to rehash it.
2. Julius Erving 76 - Possibly the GOAT playoffs, he went against more talented teams while carrying his team offensively and defensively. No injury excuses, no league interruptions - just domination on both ends.
3. KG 04 - Elite defensively, great playmaking, and his scoring was very solid in this year as well. Huge impact stats, etc.

Can't really elaborate too deeply for at least a month. Will briefly explain
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#30 » by Gibson22 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 1:07 pm

1) Curry 2016. Just head and shoulders above every remaining season as far as offense goes. Too big of a gap.
2 and 3) 2 jerry west seasons. I will come back later
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#31 » by E-Balla » Thu Aug 1, 2019 3:49 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:KG and Curry are both amazing regular season players I feel there is a concern in the playoffs. KG is so just midrange reliant in that system and Curry issues against the tightest and most physical defenses are well documented. With that said these are contenders for top 5 all time level regular seasons of all time so even with some drop off they are still contenders at this spot. Same goes for Robinson who's peak regular season value is ridiculous but loses some value in playoffs. Robinson and KG are significant defensive players so they don't have to be perfect on offense either.

So the question is... are there any players left who can approach their regular season value without having as much atrophy in the playoffs? Erving and Walton did great but the competition is a bit weaker. DIRK was amazing. West and Oscar are great. Even D Wade and Kobe?

1. 2004 Garnett - I'm sold that even with his downgrade on offense in the playoffs, he's starting as a DPOY level player anyways. I value his offense more than Walton considering skillset and competition

2. 2003 Garnett
3. 2005 Garnett

I'll just go with the other Garnett seasons as well since a lot of his game is there too.

Also, this project shows that Hakeem is probably not a top 10 player all time, his peak is just inside top 10 and it was for relatively short time (93 to 95 or 96) compared to some other players. 85-92 is more like Ewing level

Ewing is going to end up possibly in the top 20 I don't see this as a slight in the least bit especially considering how small the gap is at the top. Care less about the rankings and more about the tiers, most here agree everyone in the top 10 (and some include 76 Dr. J) are all on the same tier and can be flipped without much of a difference.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#32 » by Colbinii » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:55 pm

1. 2004 KG
2. 1977 Bill Walton
3. 1995 Robinson

All of these players were not only elite offensive players but arguably top 10-15 defensive peaks.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#33 » by Narigo » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:07 pm

1.1996 David Robinson
2.2004 Kevin Garnett
3.1964 Oscar Robertson
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
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PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#34 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:14 pm

1. Erving 76 -- dominant player in a league that (aside from Kareem who was a level above everyone) had achieved parity with the NBA and did it under incredible pressure and in very rough circumstances.

2. Curry 16 -- probably the GOAT offensive RS

3. Tough choice, reading the other posters' candidates I will go with Walton 77 though his missed games are a negative. But he was (for once) healthy for the playoffs and played the game the way it should be played to maximize wins.

Looking at KG, Drob, and others.

Question: Where does peak Mikan fit into this? Is he a top 20 player or is the segregated pre-shot clock era discount so steep that he doesn't make top 50?
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#35 » by penbeast0 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 5:20 pm

trex_8063 wrote:... JR Reid, Terry Cummings, post-prime Doc Rivers (Rivers probably the only one of those three I'd say was passable good defensively).
....


I disagree on Cummings. He wasn't great out on the floor when guarding 3's and a bit short armed against the dominant posting 5's but against the 4's of his era, his great strength and ferocious conditioning combined with a pretty decent ability to read the floor and make switches make him an above average defender both in San Antonio (where the defensive numbers with him were better than those with Rodman) and in Milwaukee. I think he may not have been a plus defender when he first came into the league in San Diego but then again, like most of Clippers' history, those teams were seriously disfunctional and my lasting impression of him defensively is pretty decent.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#36 » by Joey Wheeler » Thu Aug 1, 2019 9:13 pm

It's really weird how much traction Curry 2016 is getting here. Missed a significant chunk of the playoffs (more than half of the first two rounds), had a notoriously underwhelming Finals, clearly negative on/off throughout the playoffs. Had 1 strong series out of 4 in the playoffs and even in that one his team was 1 point better with him off and all the evidence points towards Durant having been the better player throughout the series.

He did put up big regular season numbers, but they're not that big compared to what other guards like Westbrook and Harden did in recent years actually. Great regular season impact numbers, but they were actually second in his own team behind Draymond's (who actually kept those numbers up in the playoffs too). The only logical explanation is some people were caught up in all the hype during 2016 and don't want to admit they were wrong...

The 11th best peak of all time is certainly not someone whose team was almost 4 points better without them throughout 24 playoff games (with a very significant off sample due to all the time he missed).
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#37 » by euroleague » Thu Aug 1, 2019 9:56 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:It's really weird how much traction Curry 2016 is getting here. Missed a significant chunk of the playoffs (more than half of the first two rounds), had a notoriously underwhelming Finals, clearly negative on/off throughout the playoffs. Had 1 strong series out of 4 in the playoffs and even in that one his team was 1 point better with him off and all the evidence points towards Durant having been the better player throughout the series.

He did put up big regular season numbers, but they're not that big compared to what other guards like Westbrook and Harden did in recent years actually. Great regular season impact numbers, but they were actually second in his own team behind Draymond's (who actually kept those numbers up in the playoffs too). The only logical explanation is some people were caught up in all the hype during 2016 and don't want to admit they were wrong...

The 11th best peak of all time is certainly not someone whose team was almost 4 points better without them throughout 24 playoff games (with a very significant off sample due to all the time he missed).

He changed the way the game was played. Teams had no idea what to do, or how to defend him. He could score basically at will, and his scoring was better than anyone else by 3/2.

per36 he averaged 32/6/7 on (by 2pt/3pt/ft) 57/45/91 on 21 FGA and 5 FTA

Michael Jordan's 88 average

per36 he averaged 31/5/5 on 55/13/84 on 22 FGA and 9.4 FTA

In other words, he blows MJ out of the water on every level offensively. There was no one even close to him in terms of scoring.

He got injured in the playoffs, and the Warriors still made the Finals and lost mainly because the league stepped in and suspended Draymond. If it weren't for that, his team would probably be considered the GOAT, and Curry would be in the top 10 EVEN WITHOUT considering the injury.

I don't think, considering the injury, 11th is placing him high at all.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#38 » by Mavericksfan » Thu Aug 1, 2019 10:17 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:It's really weird how much traction Curry 2016 is getting here. Missed a significant chunk of the playoffs (more than half of the first two rounds), had a notoriously underwhelming Finals, clearly negative on/off throughout the playoffs. Had 1 strong series out of 4 in the playoffs and even in that one his team was 1 point better with him off and all the evidence points towards Durant having been the better player throughout the series.

He did put up big regular season numbers, but they're not that big compared to what other guards like Westbrook and Harden did in recent years actually. Great regular season impact numbers, but they were actually second in his own team behind Draymond's (who actually kept those numbers up in the playoffs too). The only logical explanation is some people were caught up in all the hype during 2016 and don't want to admit they were wrong...

The 11th best peak of all time is certainly not someone whose team was almost 4 points better without them throughout 24 playoff games (with a very significant off sample due to all the time he missed).


Can you please stop trying to use raw +/- data to support your arguments? Especially for such a small sample size. There are enough compelling arguments against ‘16 Curry without using unreliable data to paint a false narrative.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#39 » by Joey Wheeler » Thu Aug 1, 2019 11:13 pm

Mavericksfan wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:It's really weird how much traction Curry 2016 is getting here. Missed a significant chunk of the playoffs (more than half of the first two rounds), had a notoriously underwhelming Finals, clearly negative on/off throughout the playoffs. Had 1 strong series out of 4 in the playoffs and even in that one his team was 1 point better with him off and all the evidence points towards Durant having been the better player throughout the series.

He did put up big regular season numbers, but they're not that big compared to what other guards like Westbrook and Harden did in recent years actually. Great regular season impact numbers, but they were actually second in his own team behind Draymond's (who actually kept those numbers up in the playoffs too). The only logical explanation is some people were caught up in all the hype during 2016 and don't want to admit they were wrong...

The 11th best peak of all time is certainly not someone whose team was almost 4 points better without them throughout 24 playoff games (with a very significant off sample due to all the time he missed).


Can you please stop trying to use raw +/- data to support your arguments? Especially for such a small sample size. There are enough compelling arguments against ‘16 Curry without using unreliable data to paint a false narrative.


Why is the data unreliable? Because the picture it paints is not the one you want to see?

And why is the narrative 'false'? It is factual that the Warriors were ~4 points better without Curry on the floor than with him on during the 2016 playoffs. There's room for argument on how relevant those numbers are, but claiming they are false is just denying facts.

It's also incredibly ironic to see +/- numbers being dismissed as "unreliable" and "false" when they're the argument most prominently used around here to talk up Curry's greatness. Even with another player in the discussion, the 11th highest peak ever player's team being 4 points better without him in the playoffs would still be something that'd require some justification, but it's especially funny with it being Curry given the amount of arguments for him on this site based on this type of data.

Finally, that wasn't the only argument I used anyway, it was one in a list including missing half of the first two rounds of the playoffs, having an underwhelming Finals and at best 1 great playoff series out of 4. It's not like I said Playoff on/off is the be all end all, just one of the aspects that makes it baffling he's being considered. Good luck finding any other top 20/30 peak season being considered where the guy has negative playoff on/off numbers.
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Re: Peaks project update: #11 

Post#40 » by GeorgeMarcus » Thu Aug 1, 2019 11:16 pm

'16 Curry
'95 D Rob
'04 Garnett / '76 Dr J
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