Better peak - Leonard vs Russell

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

At this point he is the joke.
I wonder why you, sane people, trying to talk some sense to someone who simply refuses to get.

Leonard is going to win 3 straight finals MVPS (2 with clippers and 1 with raptors) and you traded him for Derozan. Yet I'm the joke? I understand why you're angry losing the best player of this generation and being stuck with Derozan/Aldridge but don't take it out on me pal.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

All people laugh at defense comments, but I want to focus on different thing:

You just admited you believe that Russell wasn't massively better REBOUNDER than Kawhi because "Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position". This is even more ridiculous than defensive comparison and honestly I'm surprised that I'm alone that realized that.

Russell is at worst top 10 rebounder ever. Kawhi is not top 10 rebounder ever at his position.

Bird plays less on the wing than kawhi and wouldn't be able to defend SF's today. He's more of a PF type in today's game. Leonard is a rare SF rebounder who won a title leading his team in rebounds, how many SF besides James or Bird have done that? Leonard also had multiple game clinching offensive rebounds to win vs 76ers and bucks. Great hands, great length, great determination. Total package as a rebounder. Late game offensive rebounds are critical. Rebounding in games that clinch finals appearances almost better, Leonard had 17 rebounds in game 6 bucks game. Stop sleeping on his rebounding.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

Russell had better athleticism, better length, better strength. He shut down Wilt Chamberlain who was far better than Giannis or Jimmy freaking Butler. He also locked down offenses run by Oscar Robertson and Jerry West. He's intimidated to a point that guards didn't want to drive to the paint in a league without three point line and some anecdotes even tell us that some of guards were scared of taking open jumpshots without looking at Russell twice.

Russell lead elite defenses in 13 years of his career and only 5 of his teams were better than Kawhi's best defensive team (2016 Spurs), 8 of them better than 2017 Spurs.

Also, finally, Russell's defense is much more valuable than Kawhi's offense. Not even a question.

Length? A big man to a SF? You want to play that game, Leonard is the better shooter and ball handler. The passing isn't huge, the scoring gap is huge. The offensive gap is bigger than the defense gap Do you see why Leonard is better now? Make sure you read the bold letters.

[toodles23]

The only argument for Kawhi here is that if you transported Russell to the present with a time machine, Kawhi would be more valuable. That's possible. However if you're comparing how good each guy was in their own era there is no argument for Kawhi whatsoever.

Also HBK's Kawhi stanning is one of the weirder things I've seen in my 9 years on this board. He's too dedicated to just be a troll which means he probably believes all of the stuff he posts.

[freethedevil]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Also, kawhi sucks as a passer, so...

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Also, kawhi sucks as a passer, so...

Kawhi is a better than average passer and can carry playmaking for stretches of 2 or 3 games in a series, he's capable. Its funny how all season Giannis was supposed to be an amazing passer and rebounder all season. In game 6 closeout game ECF

Kawhi 7 assist and 17 rebounds
Giannis 4 assist and 11 reboundsee

Kawhi destroyed the MVP that series, than he outplayed Curry, and also outplayed embiid. Raptors had to face an elite defensive team basically every round in the east (magic were borderline elite) and Leonard still scored 732 points on 62% TS.

[freethedevil]

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Also, kawhi sucks as a passer, so...

Kawhi 7 assist and 17 rebounds
Giannis 4 assist and 11 reboundsee
.

Assists have little to no correlation with the quality of a team's offense. Try again.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

The only argument for Kawhi here is that if you transported Russell to the present with a time machine, Kawhi would be more valuable. That's possible. However if you're comparing how good each guy was in their own era there is no argument for Kawhi whatsoever.

Also HBK's Kawhi stanning is one of the weirder things I've seen in my 9 years on this board. He's too dedicated to just be a troll which means he probably believes all of the stuff he posts.

Not trolling, giving you opinion based on eye test and stats. The two guys I'm very high on today are Kawhi and Harden. Both James harden and kawhi leonard are projected to be top 5 GOATS easy. Harden as a top 5 regular season GOAT and Kawhi as a top 5 playoff GOAT. People just sleep on those guys because they are still in their primes. I guess once kawhi has 4 finals MVPS and Harden has 10 regular seasons averaging over 29PPG, you'll finally see it my way. At the end of the day, its just my opinion and you can disagree all you like.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Also, kawhi sucks as a passer, so...

Kawhi 7 assist and 17 rebounds
Giannis 4 assist and 11 reboundsee
.

Assists have little to no correlation with the quality of a team's offense. Try again.

Oh and Giannis throwing bonehead passes out of double teams is? He looked like he saw a ghost. Giannis will never be the leading scorer on a title team, kawhi already has done that. Giannis is a poor man's KG and Kawhi is a poor man's Michael Jordan Do you see the difference?

Kawhi 2017 and 2019 = 1992-1998 Jordan

Only reason I would listen to a Jordan argument is because his athleticism from 87-1991.

1992-1998 MJ is where Kawhi is about right now.

[freethedevil]

Kawhi 7 assist and 17 rebounds
Giannis 4 assist and 11 reboundsee
.

Assists have little to no correlation with the quality of a team's offense. Try again.

Oh and Giannis throwing bonehead passes out of double teams is?

Giannis created more opportunities, had a higher assist to to ratio. and a higher passer rating. He's a better passer. Off course, we're not talking giannis, we're talking russell whose passing was better than either giannis or kawhi's

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Assists have little to no correlation with the quality of a team's offense. Try again.

Oh and Giannis throwing bonehead passes out of double teams is?

Giannis created more opportunities, had a higher assist to to ratio. and a higher passer rating. He's a better passer. Off course, we're not talking giannis, we're talking russell whose passing was better than either giannis or kawhi's

Russell as a passer may be better but as a playmaker, kawhi is better. The scoring gap is so big and Kawhi just draws way more double teams and creates opportunities with his scoring than Russell ever did. It just doesn't always translate to assist. 76ers double teamed kawhi consistently after game 1, bucks double teamed Kawhi every game and so on. Russell isn't the type that's going to score a whole lot. A modern day comparison for Russell would be peak Dwight Howard with better passing ability. That's still not better than Leonard.

[HeartBreakKid]

Guys Kawhi scores and Russell does not, obviously he is better!

And Kawhi Leonard is nowhere near the goat defender. He is arguably not even the best perimeter defender, much less better than an all time defensive center.

[Samurai]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

I certainly got a good laugh out of it so I am assuming it must have been a sincere effort at tongue-in-cheek humor. Of players I have seen, and I have seen Kawhi play, Russell is the GOAT defensive player. He was also an elite rebounder regardless of position.

Russell's 64 season was voted as the #8 peak in the GOAT Peaks Project. I can't find Kawhi on the list, but there is a good chance he could crack the top 25. So far this poll is running at 21-0 for Russell, which seems just about right. I'm guessing Kawhi will have one vote by the time voting is done.

[thebigbird]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

I'm with you brother. Kawhi has incredible hands.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Come on this is a joke at this point, right?

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

I'm with you brother. Kawhi has incredible hands.

2016 - Leonard was the best player on a 67 win team

2017 - 61 wins and 1st ranked defensive team in reg season. Playoffs he averaged 27 PPG on 67% TS with a 31 PER and was 95% likely going to steal homecourt on Warriors in game 1.

2019 - Came off an injury and was tuning himself up in the regular season. Playoffs averaged 30 PPG on 62% and was 2nd in most points under 5 minutes since 2000 playoffs. 732 points on 62% TS shows how great of a scorer leonard is because his efficiency and the level of defense teams he played.

Those were his first 3 prime years, what else can you ask for? And now finally he's playing with a superstar for the first time in his career.

[Samurai]

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

I'm with you brother. Kawhi has incredible hands.

2016 - Leonard was the best player on a 67 win team

2017 - 61 wins and 1st ranked defensive team in reg season. Playoffs he averaged 27 PPG on 67% TS with a 31 PER and was 95% likely going to steal homecourt on Warriors in game 1.

2019 - Came off an injury and was tuning himself up in the regular season. Playoffs averaged 30 PPG on 62% and was 2nd in most points under 5 minutes since 2000 playoffs. 732 points on 62% TS shows how great of a scorer leonard is because his efficiency and the level of defense teams he played.

Those were his first 3 prime years, what else can you ask for? And now finally he's playing with a superstar for the first time in his career.

What does this mean? The title of the thread is asking who had the better peak between Kawhi and Russell, not prime. If the OP is incorrect, where does it say "3-year prime"? If it doesn't say "3-year prime", couldn't you ask for best 5 or 7 year prime; wouldn't the longer prime period give a better example of a player's consistency and durability than 3 years? If the OP says peak, shouldn't we be referencing this to the GOAT Peaks Projects listing to incorporate those comments for the peak years that Russell and Kawhi were selected?

[thebigbird]

Leonard has some of the best hands ever, only Jordan is close in their hands. Leonard also has elite athleticism, elite length, elite strength. He shut down Giannis, shut down Butler. In the finals he guarded Draymond and roamed around on defense and averaged over a block a game. Leonard is that guy. He's intimidating and he's goat level when hes locked in on somebody. His teams in 15, 16,17 were all elite defense. Russell is better on defense but Leonard is a stud in his own right.

Russell's scoring ability is what's more questionable.

I'm with you brother. Kawhi has incredible hands.

2016 - Leonard was the best player on a 67 win team

2017 - 61 wins and 1st ranked defensive team in reg season. Playoffs he averaged 27 PPG on 67% TS with a 31 PER and was 95% likely going to steal homecourt on Warriors in game 1.

2019 - Came off an injury and was tuning himself up in the regular season. Playoffs averaged 30 PPG on 62% and was 2nd in most points under 5 minutes since 2000 playoffs. 732 points on 62% TS shows how great of a scorer leonard is because his efficiency and the level of defense teams he played.

Those were his first 3 prime years, what else can you ask for? And now finally he's playing with a superstar for the first time in his career.

Hey man I agree with you 100%. I've seen the light thanks to you! I used to disagree but after digging into the tape I'd have a hard time putting anyone sans Michael Jordan above peak Kawhi.

[Franco]

Russell isn't massively better than Leonard at any thing unless you want to try the health argument.

Scoring - Leonard is massively better
Passing - Russell is slightly better
Defense - Russell is slightly better

Leonard led his team in rebounds and is an elite rebounder for his position.

Overall, Leonard is better.

Leonard is a 2 time defensive player of the year and was the catalyst for one of the greatest defensive playoff runs ever in 2019. At the end of the day, Leonard is much better on defense than Russell is on offense.

Russell could lose an arm and still be a more impactful defender than Kawhi would ever hope to be

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I'm with you brother. Kawhi has incredible hands.

2016 - Leonard was the best player on a 67 win team

2017 - 61 wins and 1st ranked defensive team in reg season. Playoffs he averaged 27 PPG on 67% TS with a 31 PER and was 95% likely going to steal homecourt on Warriors in game 1.

2019 - Came off an injury and was tuning himself up in the regular season. Playoffs averaged 30 PPG on 62% and was 2nd in most points under 5 minutes since 2000 playoffs. 732 points on 62% TS shows how great of a scorer leonard is because his efficiency and the level of defense teams he played.

Those were his first 3 prime years, what else can you ask for? And now finally he's playing with a superstar for the first time in his career.

Hey man I agree with you 100%. I've seen the light thanks to you! I used to disagree but after digging into the tape I'd have a hard time putting anyone sans Michael Jordan above peak Kawhi.

I finally convinced you, now you can finally lay of the kawhi hating in the general board as you are one that sticks out to me. You're a lakers fan so you will know first hand these next couple of years of how good Leonard is. If you go home crying like Embiid, don't say I didn't warn you.

[RCM88x]

What are we doing here.